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Sawing for profit

Started by welderskelter, December 05, 2018, 07:28:37 PM

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welderskelter

My boss wants some white oak logs sawed up into 2 and a half in. planks. What would be a reasonable amount to charge him. He is bringing out the logs. I just got my mill running. I have been building it for about 6 years now. So far I have only dulled 2 blades so havent sawed much. ???  Just need to know what you guys would charge. Thanks Harold

Outlaw

That depends if he is a good boss ;D. 
TK 1600, old logging equipment,  sthil chainsaws

Southside

Logs brought to me I charge $0.35 / BF International for normal sawing.  All QS or other specialty is more.   
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

   I would not saw them for him (or anyone) until I was confident in my equipment and skill level. If you are uncertain tell him that and you might suggest you would saw them for the training experience.

    My rate in this part of the country, which might be less than yours, would be $.30/bf for finished product or $60/hr for specialty sawing.

    Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

welderskelter

Thanks. I am confident in my sawing as I have built and ran a circle saw years ago. And I do have 13 blades on hand. I think I done a pretty good job on the bandmill as it is working pretty good. Another thing is he is just putting them on a dozer trailer. Dont have to be too perfect. Harold

SawyerTed

If you are confident in your sawing, then you will find that $0.30 to $0.40 per board foot is typical.  If you have to hire an off bearer then that would be in addition. My rate is $0.36 per board foot or $72 per hour for straight sawing.  I'm to the point now that I can make more on a per board foot rate if the off bearer(s) can keep up.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Tom the Sawyer

At my mill, 10/4 is .35 p/bf.
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: welderskelter on December 05, 2018, 08:18:08 PM
Thanks. I am confident in my sawing as I have built and ran a circle saw years ago. And I do have 13 blades on hand. I think I done a pretty good job on the bandmill as it is working pretty good. Another thing is he is just putting them on a dozer trailer. Dont have to be too perfect. Harold
Thx for the clarification. I was not trying to offend or insult your sawing ability. I just read your initial post as if you were just starting out. Good luck.

Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

petefrom bearswamp

With my old age and inefficiency, sawing for profit is an oxymoron.
I only charge .25 per bd ft if the customer is the tail man and $50/hr when sawing hourly
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

JamieK

I have a Wood-Mizer LT28 manual mill. Since it is manual I don't charge an hourly rate. I have a minimum charge of $45 for small logs and charge $.37 per BDTF no matter what size boards I'm milling. I've calculated an average day and I have been milling at a $65 per hour pace. And also use the Doyle scale to calculate the BDFT in the log
Wood-Mizer LT70 full line, BMS250, BMT100, Moffet M5,Nyle L200M, Lucas mill model 7 with slabbing attachment and planer attachment

mike_belben

We are gonna need to see some pics of the home made circle mill.  

;)
Praise The Lord

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: JamieK on December 06, 2018, 10:56:51 AM
I have a Wood-Mizer LT28 manual mill. Since it is manual I don't charge an hourly rate. I have a minimum charge of $45 for small logs and charge $.37 per BDTF no matter what size boards I'm milling. I've calculated an average day and I have been milling at a $65 per hour pace. And also use the Doyle scale to calculate the BDFT in the log
J,

   Have you ever compared the actual finished lumber bf tally to your initial log scale tally? I'd be interested in how that compared.

   I know sawyers who bill by the bf estimates by scaling the logs and I gather that is advantageous to them as they get paid for poor quality logs that don't yield much as well as good quality logs. I have always billed on the actual finished lumber tally which I feel is more fair to the customer. There is likely a happy medium in there somewhere.

Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Skipper11A

Your band saw blades are a lot more flexible than a circle saw blade,  and white oak can be very difficult to cut with them.  This is where I would use  4° blades and be ready to put on a fresh blade as soon as you feel the old one begin to lose its sharpness.  You may also want to use a diesel lube to clean the pitch buildup off the blades. 

You will probably end up with some wavy cuts, just make sure that your boss knows this in advance so that he isn't expecting every board to be perfect. 

Southside

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 06, 2018, 11:35:17 AMI know sawyers who bill by the bf estimates by scaling the logs and I gather that is advantageous to them as they get paid for poor quality logs that don't yield much as well as good quality logs. I have always billed on the actual finished lumber tally which I feel is more fair to the customer. There is likely a happy medium in there somewhere.


WV - I make an honest effort to account for sweep, rot, defects when scaling logs I custom saw.  Basically use the same standard I would be held to as if I were selling those logs to a mill, so not just what the stick reads.  I think that makes for a fair medium.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

OffGrid973

Two logs you may want to barter for some BBQ and a bar tab on a "good" night out.

You will come across some hurdles (possible metal if no detector) so mention they will be "around" 2.5 inches and that you like your steaks rare and plentiful.
Your Fellow Woodworker,
- Off Grid

WV Sawmiller

Mike,

  I have repeatedly said in various threads "All forms of charging are fair as long as both parties agree and understand up front." I stick by that. I still think the most creative was where the sawyer listed the limitations of his mill and the logs he could accept. He charged a set fee for every log. The sawyer knew exactly how much he was going to make, the customer knew exactly how much he was going to pay.

  I just assume most of my work will average out - the crappy logs with low yield where I waste more time than I prefer and the good straight logs where the lumber just flies off the mill. If I see up front the logs are short, small diameter or otherwise low yield I just advise the customer up front I will be sawing by the hour and show him why. We agree before the blade hits the first log.

  I was/am just wondering how the comparison worked out using the Doyle scale vs actual finished lumber yield.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

WDH

I have measured Doyle versus actual yield on maybe a hundred logs.  On average size logs, say 12" to 18" on small end, I average about 25% more actual yield than Doyle.  On small logs, that is more like 35% more.  On large logs, the actual is closer to Doyle and mostly a bit more, maybe about 10% more.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Southside

Every now and then I will compare scale to actual on International and generally the larger the logs the more I beat the scale it seems.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SawyerTed

I usually equal or beat the International Scale.  The logs have to be really poor not to equal the scale.  The bandsaw makes some difference as does evaluating each log as it is cut versus production sawing where output weighs heavily.  Southside is right, the larger logs beat the scale proportionally higher as long as they are relatively free of defects.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Brad_bb

For the customer, I think it's really got to boil down to cost/BF.  This presents a problem for Sawyers sometimes because milling smaller logs is less efficient/productive than larger logs.  This assumes we are talking about fairly clean straight logs and not branch knots and crotches sticking out all over the place.  Those would be specialty and require an extra charge.

On the other hand, what matters to the sawyer, I think, would be his time.  If he got a straight cost per hour, well that's a little less pressure as it doesn't really matter what kind of logs he's sawing (sort of- absent the customers expectations).  But he does have to hustle to produce to try to meet the customers output expectations.  

Last year I employed the help of another Sawyer to cut 2x8 (10/4 x8 to be exact).  He charged $100/hr.  I was hoping his productivity with his LT50 hydraulic and off bearer, would keep production to a level that was reasonable.  What's reasonable?  Well it ended up coming out to .83/BF.  Not sure how to take that as it seems everyone on here is cheaper.  

In the end, remember that you can always lower what you charge at the end, but you cannot increase it!
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Southside

Brad - Basically he was sawing 125 BF / HR on a 50?  Is that correct?  Was there anything unusual that would cause production to be so low?  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Brad_bb

No.  Log diameters 14-28".  Honestly, I found it a bit hard to swallow.  I didn't know what his production would be before hand.  How is one supposed to know?  I think a BF basis should be established.  But he was adamant that his rate was his rate.  So I don't think he would have agree to a BF rate.  Consequently, I'm reticent to send any more work that way if I have time to do it myself.  Last year I was trying to get the sawing done quickly so I could get it drying quickly.  That was not a factor in the pricing though.  
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

WV Sawmiller

Brad,

   That sounds a little high to me too. You could almost buy the finished lumber for that around here. I'd have told him the cost was more than I had expected, I'd have paid for the work and if I had more work I'd suggest a bf rate. If he accepted fine, if not I'd find another sawyer. No ill will involved just simple economics. He knows the kind of logs you are going to be bringing and what his production should be. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

moodnacreek

Custom sawing by the board foot is an old tradition from the days of traditional saw logs. Problem is today you might get either shrubbery or giants to saw not to mention all the limbs and gravel jammed up in the cracks of logs cut 2 years ago or more.  I never quote until I see the wood and whip out the metal detector and then another person doesn't like me. 









 P

WV Sawmiller

    Good point. This is why I leave myself and out and tell my customers short, dirty, small logs and custom sawing will be by the hour. As long as both parties know which rate will be applied and agree in advance everything is cool.

   In the customer's defense, they, like most of us, are on a budget and need to know in advance a reasonable estimate of what their lumber is going to cost to produce. We know some logs produce more at a cheaper rate for us to saw - they don't know that. This is one reason repeat customers are so much easier to deal with - they now have confidence in the process.

  This is also one of the reasons I am so intrigued by the Per Log rate I mentioned earlier. The customer may not know in advance exactly how much lumber he will get but he sure knows what he is fixing to spend and doesn't get stuck with sticker shock like Brad describes. I guess I could work up a Per Log rate and offer that to nervous new customers. One of these days I may put a pen to paper and calculate such a rate.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

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