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At what length do you charge?

Started by Todd Tittle, September 10, 2010, 10:54:47 PM

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Todd Tittle

I saw mostly for myself, but have picked up a few jobs sawing for others.  So far all my customers have had previous experiences of having lumber sawed.  They had the logs stacked nice and neat with easy access for me to get to and from the logs.  All the logs had been cut a few inches longer than what the final product would be.  For example all logs that were to end up at 8' would be 8' 3"or so. I only charged for 8'.  One of my customers belongs to a hunting club and they wanted me to cut for them.   I arrive and find fairly neat piles of logs, but each member had their own stack. Each pile came with a specific list. So far so good. Most of these guys have never had lumber sawed before so this is a new experience for them. Anyway no two logs in a pile are the same length.  One log will be 8' 1" and the next will be 8' 10" and so on.  I don't know what to charge.  I don't mind giving a couple inches away but I don't want to lose 10" on every board.  How do you guys figure out your bill?  Do you charge for every inch of log length or do you have a point where you charge for the next whole foot? 
I was thinking of something like this.  If the log is 8'-8' 3" charge for 8',  8' 4"-8' 9" charge for 8.5' , 8"10"+ charge for 9" or 8'- 8'5" charge for 8' and 8'6-8'11" charge for 8.5'.  What do you guys do?

Todd

Dan_Shade

I've always rounded down.  I also saw based on international scale.

Ultimately, you have to do what makes you comfortable, and keeps your customers returning.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Jeff

For 8 footers and up you would typically round down to the nearest whole number. If its 8' 10" its an 8 foot log, Logs are, or should be always cut a bit longer then the intended finished length. I knlow of no one that charges by the half foot. For shorter wood, I'd be charging by the houe because its a pain and production will suffer.
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paul case

Quote from: Jeff on September 10, 2010, 11:01:50 PM
For 8 footers and up you would typically round down to the nearest whole number. If its 8' 10" its an 8 foot log, Logs are, or should be always cut a bit longer then the intended finished length. I knlow of no one that charges by the half foot. For shorter wood, I'd be charging by the houe because its a pain and production will suffer.
i am with jeff on this one except i would charge by the hour instead of the''houe''  .  pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

backwoods sawyer

Your question is a good one and ultimately you will want to charge the way that makes you and the customer happy.
I am with Jeff on this in that I would rather saw up to the next foot so that there is plenty of trim room for defects. When you pull a board out of the dry stack and there is a crack in both ends and poorly placed knot, you can still trim the board down and end up with a usable 8' board.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Meadows Miller

Gday

Im with everyone else here Mate it don't matter if its an 1" or 10 over the set length id just be charging them for it and remember that takes time to measure everything with me id just measure the first few in a pile and call it that if they are all roughly the same length Mate  ;) ;D  just let them know in the future that you would prefer the logs with the std 4" allowance to make things easier on you Mate  ;) ;D 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Chuck White

I guess I'm a little different here.

I tell the customers ahead of time to cut their logs about 3-5 inches longer than what they're looking to get!

This way, they can square up the ends of the boards when they get ready to use them.

I use a contract that specifically says that I will charge to the next foot on any log that is over 6 inches longer than the nominal length.

That is, a log that's 8'6" will be charged as an 8' and a log that's 8'10" will be charged as a 9' log.

Let your charge rate be known by the customer ahead of time.  It makes for a better relationship, and a good relationship will bring "repeat" customers.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

John Bartley

By the hour .... it just makes life easier.

John
Kioti DK35HSE w/loader & forks
Champion 25hp band mill, 20' bed
Stihl MS361
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Banjo picker

I'm with you Chuck if they cut that log over 5 inches longer than needed, they are taking advantage of you....I have cut logs myself...no need to miss it over that much unless you are planning to use it...So they should pay for the pleasure...Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

terrifictimbersllc

I doubt most who give odd sized logs are trying to take advantage.  I too vote for rounding down to the nearest foot.  8'1 to 8'11 is 8'.   It's easier and has generosity built in.    I would rather not look like a sawyer who measures (length) to the inch.  If you're really getting most of them near to but not quite at the higher foot then just call some of those the higher foot.  If customer calls you on it then he's given himself away and you can just say "it's fair because..."  More important is how width and thickness are reckoned. Don't round down to the nearest foot there  8) 8) 8) Tell or type up a "measuring rules" sheet and hand it out in advance with whatever you want on it. I think as long as you communicate it in advance and are consistent between customers.  All that being said I almost always charge hourly and my bf charging has been when working alone on large multiple day jobs.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Todd Tittle

Thanks guys.  Since I am new at this I wanted a second opinion on how to handle this. I will round down and charge accordingly. You guys are right about talking to the customer first.  I will size down this time, but will talk the  customers about it.  I am having a hard time sawing 11 inches of every board for free.  I will chalk it up as learning experience. As far as charging by the hour, I have a Norwood Lumbermate 2000.  I don't think it would be fair to charge by the hour with an all manual mill, unless it was a unique item.

Todd

John Bartley

Quote from: Todd Tittle on September 11, 2010, 04:39:57 PMAs far as charging by the hour, I have a Norwood Lumbermate 2000.  I don't think it would be fair to charge by the hour with an all manual mill, unless it was a unique item.

Todd

I was in business for a long time .... quite successfully I might add. One thing I rarely saw, in all my years of customer service, whether as an employee, or as a self employed person was a customer who cared about being fair to the person they were hiring. The customer invariably looks for the most return for the least money. It only took a very short time for me to realise that "fair is as fair does", and that I could always depend on the customer to tell me when they thought I was overcharging (even when it was obvious that I wasn't). I also have a manual mill. I charge by the hour. I give nothing away. I depend on the customer to be an adult and decide for themselves what is fair. I have no intention of financing any persons retirement except my own. You'll have to decide for yourself whose retirement you're financing....

That's my $0.02

cheers

John
Kioti DK35HSE w/loader & forks
Champion 25hp band mill, 20' bed
Stihl MS361
Stihl 026

paul case

i too have a all manual mill.
i have found out  that ''fair'' is where they show pigs. pc
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

red oaks lumber

8'11" is 8'  9'1" is 9' so on. if you were buying logs that were 8'11" would you pay for the full lenght or pay for 8' ? you would pay for 8'. fair is fair but, right is also right.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Chuck White

That's why it's in my contract.

The customer knows ahead of time that he will be charged to the next foot for anything over 6 inches longer than nominal length.

As long as both parties know ahead of time, and they both sign the contract, there won't be any problem.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Todd Tittle

John and Paul I didn't mean to imply that people who have manual mills should not charge by the hour.  It's just that for me at my pace and skill level I don't feel comfortable charging by the hour. I have about 60 hours on my 3 year old mill.  When I have a few hundred hours under my belt and get better/faster at knowing what a log will give me and what it won't, I might change my mind about hourly rates.




Todd

Banjo picker

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on September 11, 2010, 02:13:51 PM
I doubt most who give odd sized logs are trying to take advantage.

I have bought many 18 ft logs from loggers ....do you know how long they were...most would be 18 ft. 2 in...they knew what they were selling...people bringing me logs are probably at least nearly as smart...jmo...Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

captain_crunch

Out west Mills will not buy a log unless it has 8-10 in trim on log rough lumber requires 1-2 in trim. so a 8ft 15/16". log is an 8 ft log.
So buck em before sawing em or shut up >:( >:(
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

bandmiller2

Mayby I'am an old softie but I always give a bakers dozen.When I'am in a cut a couple of inches mean nothing.If you order 28 2x4's and the log has 30 or 32 I just throw them in rather than finding a pile to stickem. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

nas

I always round down to the nearest foot.  Sometimes giving something for free is the most profitable thing you can do.  I have a regular customer who I give a bottle of maple syrup once in a while, and on Friday he called for a quote on some 2x6 W oak.  I told him $1.30/BF and he said "I think I can do better than that for you".  Later he sent me a PO at $1.50/BF 8).  That pays for the maple syrup a few times over :D ;D.

Nick
Better to sit in silence and have everyone think me a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt - Napoleon.

Indecision is the key to flexibility.
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StephenRice

Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 12, 2010, 08:12:19 AM
Mayby I'am an old softie but I always give a bakers dozen.When I'am in a cut a couple of inches mean nothing.If you order 28 2x4's and the log has 30 or 32 I just throw them in rather than finding a pile to stickem. Frank C.

I agree with nas and bandmiller and most of the others on here.  I learned the benefit of a baker's dozen when I was a young kid about 10 years old selling night crawlers in Lakeview, MI.  I always took the utmost care to provide the best quality night crawlers to my customers, making sure that they were healthy and not stressed.  Undersized night crawlers were always thrown in for free and I always made sure that there were 13-15 night crawlers in a dozen pack.  And, they were the healthiest around.  The fishermen that came to buy my night crawlers really appreciated it and told me how my night crawlers would be healthy and strong in a refrigerator after six months where the store bought ones were dead and smelling in a few days.  So, they always came back for more.  My reputation spread until I had fishermen from out of state driving many miles out of their way to come get their bait from me when they were traveling north on fishing trips.

The few extra night crawlers and work that I gave away never hurt my bottom line.  In fact, my reputation grew so that I even sold those night crawlers after I was married with children, once paying all the bills for three months and buying the kids all new bikes just from my small income selling the night crawlers I could pick out of my backyard at night.

Your reputation is everything in business.  One pleased customer will often bring you up to 10 new customers, but an unhappy one can lose you 100.  Take the little bit of time to go the extra mile and provide the "Wow!" affect and you will never go wrong.  There is nothing wrong with talking to the customer about the logs to request them to cut them or trim them to the right length, but remember that a little extra effort on your part can go a long way and is rarely a wasted effort.
"Pure gold fears no fire!" - (Ancient Chinese proverb)  What do you fear?

Mark Webb

I like others, if the log is 8'11" I still charge for 8'.
The Lord made enough time in each day to do what we need to do "graciously".

John Bartley

There seems to be a misunderstanding in business between the definitions of "quality" (as it applies to products and service) and "fairness" (as it applies to pricing). Quality is the responsibility of the seller. Fairness is the responsibility of both the seller and the buyer. Far too many sellers don't understand that when you have a superior product or a superior level of quality in your service, you deserve a superior price. Todd certainly qualified his original post by commenting on his lack of experience and need to acquire more skill at his craft. Knowing that deficiency and compensating the customer for it is certainly fair. Giving products or service away for no reason is not. Far too many items and services are purchased and sold in North America based only on price. Quality, and an accompanying price seems to be falling by the wayside. I refuse to participate in that lessening of our standards.

YMMV

cheers

John
Kioti DK35HSE w/loader & forks
Champion 25hp band mill, 20' bed
Stihl MS361
Stihl 026

Tom

Smile, round down and they'll come back.  It behooves you to educate them too.  It's not just 11 inches over the size log you are charging them, it's 11 inches per board.  You blade must pass through every inch in that log to get them what they want.  That eleven inches equates to another 10 or 12 feet.

Most, I've found, aren't trying to cheat.  They just don't understand your side of the project. 

I based my business on giving things away.  No, not to my detriment, but I learned quickly not to chastise a customer and make him mad.  I wanted everyone to believe that they got the best of the deal.  I still felt that it was in my best interest to explain my position.  In fairness, most all who called me back were concerned about my financial well-being.  They kept shoving good food in my mouth too. 

When I retired, a forced thing, I found that I was part of their family.  It's been four years now since I began winding down and two years of abstinance.  I still get phone calls from people wanting me to saw.  I like to think it was because I did a good job the last time.  The fact is that they were treated fairly and I went out of my way to be a good neighbor.  Sawing an eight-foot-eleven inch log over an eight-foot-three inch log never cost me a bean from my plate.  The time I spent educating them, hugging their kids, making slabs usable and putting usable product on their "super slab" pile for free, rather than discarding it, fed me a lot of steaks.

I have had customers take advantage of me. Usually it was other sawyers who hired me to cut what they didn't want to cut themselves.  One from an old sawmill family wanted me to cut his 4/4 material, one and 3/8 inches thick and charge for a 4/4.  He also cursed his hired help tried yelling at me a time or two.  I finished the job, as I said I would, but I used my hole card.  I never went back.   He's never been able to find another sawyer since.  Funny how that works.  A bad reputation will kill a business.  There was a saying that was popular when I was coming up, "one awe S* wipes out all of your attaboys."  The sawing/logging community is a lot smaller than most would believe.  Word gets out pretty quickly.

Part of the education I used when discussing the length of boards (logs) was that hardwoods aren't necessarily sold on two foot centers like construction wood.  Most customers have no idea.   They are looking at getting the length board out of a log that they can use for their project and that should be your primary concern as a sawyer too.  It's difficult for anybody to be angry with a smile.

Magicman

My rules are general rather than being hard fast.  Less than 8' is sawed as 8' or by the hour.  Above 8' is rounded to the nearest even number.  In other words, I don't measure inches.  If it is 9' or less, it is an 8.  If it is over 9', it is a 10, etc.

Really guys, measure it all up, and you will be talking about probably less than 10 bucks.

This really is never an issue, because I'll give rather than take anytime.  I do make it a point to be sure that the customer knows that I am giving.  That is what makes repeat customers.
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