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Cutting hung up heavy leaning trees UPDATED 1/7/19

Started by Klunker, September 24, 2018, 02:16:31 AM

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Klunker

 

 

We had some wind/tornado damage in our woods.
Lots of blown over trees and hung up trees.
Some trees are almost parallel with the ground and lots of them are up to 45 degree angle to the ground. The roots have pulled up with them leaving a big ball of soil.
Plan on turning some of the damaged trees into lumber.
Lots of heavy leaners/hung up trees.

This is one of the worse. A double tree that is hung up on a bunch of still standing trees.

Any words of wisdom on how to cut this type of tree.
I can't cut the tree/trees that it is hung up on.

Thanks in advance.

Update
We got the logs out and nobody got hurt!!






 

Here is the stumps afterwards.
Cut the top one first.
Just a straight down cut from the top. when the tree moved enough to pinch the saw my helper pushed from the far side to push the log off the stump and then it dropped straight down.
He came around to this side grabbed it and pulled the whole tree away so it slowly lowered down enough to cut log lengths off.

The lower one we did pretty much the same way.

Worked pretty good.

Here is what my helper used to push and pull the logs with.
A real helpful piece of equipment for moving logs around.

 


mike_belben

What do you have for equipment and whats your skill level?  What have you got for saws?
Praise The Lord

Klunker

Quote from: mike_belben on September 24, 2018, 07:43:34 AM
What do you have for equipment and whats your skill level?  What have you got for saws?
I have a 30hp tractor with a grapple.
Skill level, I'm not a "professional", but I'm also not a newbie.
I certainly know this is a very dangerous situation.
Saws, largest I have is a Husky 562xp, 20" bar.
My first concern is if the top of the trunk is in compression or tension.
Hard to tell at times if the crown is holding it up or the remain roots are.

mike_belben

This thread had a lot of good info recently.  

Blow down salvage in Forestry and Logging

I can summarize most of my contribution by saying the unexpected is what causes injury and at times a saw should be used less for severing and more as an exploratory tool to predetermine the tree's condition by whittling gills or wedges out so internak tensions and compressions can relax and dissipate before severing.

Be careful and have a partner who can get you out or call for help. Wear your gear and think it thru, no 2nd chances.

If your tractor grapple can clamp a piece of log, use it like a joust to bust stuff you have pre-cut.  

Praise The Lord

lxskllr

I don't know much about anything, but I like Mike's advice to make test cuts to relieve tension. I'd clean up the immediate area so it's virtually spotless(no tripping, plenty of room for escape), and then work on the problem trees. Light cuts, and go slow while watching everything carefully. Once it's free enough, you can then start pulling with machines.

Hilltop366

An online resource may help.

https://woodlot.novascotia.ca/content/lesson-seven-bucking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4EWEMo3Wic

If unsure I do a bit of "nibbling" to try and see what is going on then proceed to jam my saw. :D


John Mc

Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 24, 2018, 12:23:45 PMIf unsure I do a bit of "nibbling" to try and see what is going on then proceed to jam my saw. :D


Yes, exactly! It's important to do some exploratory work first so you can be sure that final cut will thoroughly jam your saw.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mike_belben

 ;D

If theres no kerf theres nothing to get jammed between.  Another issue the beaver has solved over the ages.  

Translation:  when a kerf starts getting deep, make another right next to it that intersects the first.  Pie slices will give you jam free clearance to whittle all day.  If it starts closing, more pie.  More pie cant be wrong.
Praise The Lord

Southside

Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

Skeans1

One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I've ever gotten was if you have to ask how don't do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.

Southside

Pie and jam in a thread about blow downs - it always goes to food around here.   ;D
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mills

Hard to tell from this picture, so don't take this as gospel. 
I'm guessing that the bottom tree is hung tight at the top, and the top tree is holding it in place at the bottom. The top tree may or may not be supported well at the top, but looks like the root ball is going to be pulling back to the hole. I'd bore cut the bottom tree first starting at the center and working both ways until the tree tells you which way it wants to go. I'd then cut the top in the same manner with the expectation that root ball will put more pressure on the trunk than the top will. 
I will now go back to my corner and await the other responses. A lot of you boys have a lot more experience cutting blow downs as I do, so nail away. Got to have fun with it.
;D  :P  ;D

John Mc

It's going to take a lot more than a single picture of part of the trees for me to comment with much that will be of any help on storm damaged trees. Storm damage clean up is one of the more dangerous aspects of work in the woods. If you want to tackle this yourself, and do not have a lot of experience at this, I'd suggest finding a friend to walk you through things and make suggestions.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Southside

Not knowing whats around and like John said - it would really take a lot more overview to assess the situation.  Is there any way to get a big skidder in there to hook a winch to these and either pull them out by the root ball, stand one back up, or even pull it down the rest of the way?  If not can you get a big dozer or excavator in there to work from the rootball side and get the stress out so it comes down?  

There are no really GOOD options that involve being on the ground with a saw in a mess like that - at least not to start, maybe once you have some place for stuff to go, but at first there are a lot of unknowns, not saying it can't be done, but in the safety of a cab perhaps it can be done with less risk of bodily injury.  

Many years back, I was a teenager, I watched a homeowner sawing away at a storm felled tree - it was a big one and honestly he did not belong working on it.  Well, he got the top off just as the main trunk vaulted him into the air as the rootball pulled it back up, he must have gone 15 or more feet straight up and just as far horizontally, I will never forget the noise he made when he hit the ground, I also remember that it took a very long time for the ambulance to get there.  I never found out how bad he was hurt, but it was bad for sure.    
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

This may not go over well here and im not advocating it for anyone, but i walk up trunks like that and cut pieces off or set cables once or twice a year, 2, 3 , 4 trees stacked and tangled or propped into a pecker pole.  The last one i did was a bushel of bign's propped up  over some expensive headstones.  I walked up and whittled and winched it all apart.

Its hard to known whats going on inside a pinned tree in person, impossible to be certain through a photo.  The man with the saw has to be asking a lot of questions and considering a lot of scenarios and CANNOT BE PRESSED FOR TIME.  It takes as long as it takes and verifying your theory is important. Rushing it will cost you life and limb.   The risk doesnt end at pinch or stump stands.  You can be standing on a barberchair or under a log that rolls or kicks. Theres limb flings and hornets and rot and jammed together crotches, saw kickback, losing your balance and falling on a saw or into a limb pocket you cant get out of, getting a foot pinned. It all comes into play.  

I am self taught and always solo.  The good Lord probably got me this far, but being overly cautious probably makes the job easier on Him.  
Praise The Lord

Tramp Bushler

Quote from: Skeans1 on September 25, 2018, 02:19:20 PM
One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I've ever gotten was if you have to ask how don't do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.


Blowdown is just flat Deadly. Fresh blowdown is the worst. Everything is loaded like a grizzly trap.
You NEED a long enough bar so that your dogs never come close to touching wood. BECAUSE, you WILL GET HUNG UP !!!! No part of If you get hung. Just how soon after you start cutting and how many times.
A 562 will pull a 28" bar. That's a short bar, but the longest small Husky mount.
Perfectly straight cutting , razor sharp chains are necessary.

Always start on the bottom tree. And if possible start at the top of the bottom tree And work your way to the butt.
Sometimes I run 4 kerfs . more often I make 3 kerfs and run them all the way .  You need a spare bar of the same length and spare chains.

Bucking Blowdown is really a job for a professional timber faller.
Honest and true . Its just stupid dangerous.
.
If your not wearing your hard hat when you need it. Well.

Skeans1

Quote from: Tramp Bushler on September 26, 2018, 05:09:54 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on September 25, 2018, 02:19:20 PM
One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I've ever gotten was if you have to ask how don't do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.


Blowdown is just flat Deadly. Fresh blowdown is the worst. Everything is loaded like a grizzly trap.
You NEED a long enough bar so that your dogs never come close to touching wood. BECAUSE, you WILL GET HUNG UP !!!! No part of If you get hung. Just how soon after you start cutting and how many times.
A 562 will pull a 28" bar. That's a short bar, but the longest small Husky mount.
Perfectly straight cutting , razor sharp chains are necessary.

Always start on the bottom tree. And if possible start at the top of the bottom tree And work your way to the butt.
Sometimes I run 4 kerfs . more often I make 3 kerfs and run them all the way .  You need a spare bar of the same length and spare chains.

Bucking Blowdown is really a job for a professional timber faller.
Honest and true . Its just stupid dangerous.
Yeah it is and many good fallers have been killed over the years bucking the stuff. Hey now take it easy on my little 562 it'll run a 32 it's a large mount husky.
On a side note how's Tramp doing? How's the truck been treating you these days?

Peter Drouin

Cut some on the bottom of the tree near the stump, Cut from the top till the tree falls off the stump, watch the stump. Pull out with a tractor.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

HolmenTree

D8 dozer with forestry canopy and a feller buncher on tracks if there's alot more then in pic.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

DMcCoy

I cut 1 tree like that years ago not a cluster.  I got lucky as the stump went back upright and the stem went flying past my head.  20" alder - so a lot of weight.  The speed at which the stump re-settled caught me by surprise to say the least.  I'm not a pro but not a newbie either.  I was a bit shaken by the experience and have never had to or wanted to cut another. 

I have cut many heavy leaners and you can't treat this like a normal hard leaner because the stump is loaded with heavy dirt and wants to go back upright.   The forces are not like normal standing trees. The different things that could go wrong is really high and you would be by necessity right in the middle of it..

If you can hire a track hoe large enough to dig that out of the ground and have him hold the root ball while the stems get cut would be safer.  Or a D8 as Holmen mentions.

That is a nasty and very dangerous situation.  Remember there is no amount of lumber is worth permanent injury-none.

tawilson

I have waited till winter on some uprooted trees just so the stump was froze in place. Probably wouldn't help on the ones in the pic though. 
Tom
2017 LT40HDG35 WIDE
BMS250 and BMT250 sharpener/setter
Woodmaster 725

John Mc

Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 26, 2018, 06:50:37 AM
Cut some on the bottom of the tree near the stump, Cut from the top till the tree falls off the stump, watch the stump. Pull out with a tractor.
I do that a fair amount on blowdowns.

If I know the stump is likely to flip back up, sometimes I'll cut like I'm felling the stump up: notch the underside, bore cut to set the hinge. Open up the bore cut till I've got just the hinge and some holding wood on top left, then when I'm ready, clip that last bit of holding wood. It's a lot like what they teach in the Game of logging, except you are felling the stump up, instead of felling the tree down.
Sometimes you may need a thinner than normal hinge, since you don't have the whole weight of the tree helping you to get things moving (the hinge is often not as critical as when felling a tree, since you are generally not so worried about "steering" the tree in this situation). If I think there is a chance I've read it wrong, and the stump might not want to stand up, I'll tap in a wedge to keep the kerf from closing before I cut the holding wood.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Tramp Bushler

Quote from: Skeans1 on September 26, 2018, 05:24:02 AM
Quote from: Tramp Bushler on September 26, 2018, 05:09:54 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on September 25, 2018, 02:19:20 PM
One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I've ever gotten was if you have to ask how don't do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.


Blowdown is just flat Deadly. Fresh blowdown is the worst. Everything is loaded like a grizzly trap.
You NEED a long enough bar so that your dogs never come close to touching wood. BECAUSE, you WILL GET HUNG UP !!!! No part of If you get hung. Just how soon after you start cutting and how many times.
A 562 will pull a 28" bar. That's a short bar, but the longest small Husky mount.
Perfectly straight cutting , razor sharp chains are necessary.

Always start on the bottom tree. And if possible start at the top of the bottom tree And work your way to the butt.
Sometimes I run 4 kerfs . more often I make 3 kerfs and run them all the way .  You need a spare bar of the same length and spare chains.

Bucking Blowdown is really a job for a professional timber faller.
Honest and true . Its just stupid dangerous.
Yeah it is and many good fallers have been killed over the years bucking the stuff. Hey now take it easy on my little 562 it'll run a 32 it's a large mount husky.
On a side note how's Tramp doing? How's the truck been treating you these days?


Doing good. Knees have healed up fairly well. . Took a day off work to go cruise some timber. This area doesn't have much for big trees so I've gotta go poke around to see if I can find some that will make 2×12s. I need a couple hundred. From 16' down to 8 '
How' be you been ?
I thot the 562 was a small Husky mount. Showing my age I guess. I'm prolly thinking of the 262 or 362.
.
If your not wearing your hard hat when you need it. Well.

John Mc

Quote from: Tramp Bushler on September 26, 2018, 02:06:26 PMI thot the 562 was a small Husky mount. Showing my age I guess. I'm prolly thinking of the 262 or 362.


The 560 is a small mount, but it's not available in the US. 562 is large mount
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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