Hi, I'm new and need reality check on sawmill selection

[Woody Woodwrecker]

Hi everyone, I've lurked here a few times and finally registered. I'm in Florida at the momment but my retirement property is Northern Coastal California, near Trinidad. I have 68 acres with many old growth Sitka Spruce, some douglas fir, and a some cedars and redwoods. Some of the Sitka Spruce are very large )probably old growth) with many over five foot and some probably over six foot. I would like to use the trees taken down when I clear for a cabin location and also try to utilize some of the standing or even fallen dead trees. My dream is to be able to mill lumber and beams from the sitka spruce to build several cabins or even severalsmall houses.

[woodbeard]

Welcome 
Ya came to the right place for the sawmill part.
Not too sure 'bout the reality bit, though.  :D
What were you wanting to know? ???

[Woody Woodwrecker]

Well I hit the wrong key and messed up my first post by posting before I got my questions out!
Based on the size of the logs I have, and the desire to produce dimensional lumber and siding off the log, it seems that the swing blade type mills would be the best fit. I looked at the multi-blade circular mills but they look like overkill to me. But I am a little skeptical of the whimpy looking rails on the swing blade mills. I watched the videos from Lucas, Peterson, and Brand-X and was impressed, but I need a reality check on the practicality of cutting standing dead and/or live Sitka spruce into dimensional lumber I can use for a cabin or house. I've read on here that Sitka spruce is somewhat difficult to cut. Will I need to kiln dry the wood or just air dry it or use it green? I'm building under the "alternative owner builder" building ordinance, so I do not think I need to use graded lumber, but what if I wanted it graded? I talked to a forester and he said no problems with using the wood for my own personal use, so I think I am okay in that area. Will I have to run the wood thru a planer to use it as exposed roof decking, siding, or flooring? What about if I use the Peterson planer blade? I'm not worried about the kerf thickness because I have more wood than I can use (I think!). As far as having someone come in and cut the wood for me, I'm more "ownership" oriented and would rather do it myself. I noticed on Sawmill Exchange that there are a lot of the circular mills in Oregon for sale, so that might be an option even though they are larger. Portability is not much of an issue; I have 68 acres and just plan on setting the machine up permanently in one location. So, I'm looking for any guidance in mill selection or general critique of my plan (actually more of a dream!)

[Woody Woodwrecker]

Another question, hope it doesn't get too many laughs... what keeps the Peterson and Lucas mills from jumping back at the operator if thhey bind? I remember using radial type saws where the sawhead came flying back at me. So I am a little worried about that. I realize it must not be a big issue because I haven't read about it being a problem. But what keeps the head on the track, just the weight of the head?

[woodbeard]

Yep, just the weight of the sawhead and carriage. On my old Peterson WPF, I had a derailment or two, but only when it was cutting badly or the log was moving from released tension. You learn pretty quickly to keep blades sharp and alignment true, and to take incremental passes when you have uncooperative logs. I have feeling that your big sitka spruce will give you far less problems than smaller gnarly hardwoods.
As for the mill jumping back at you, it will usually bog down and stall when it binds that bad, but yes, you do have to be prepared to hold it back. Again, you learn to anticipate this situation and slow down the feed or shut off the motor.

[beenthere]

Woody

but I need a reality check on the practicality of cutting standing dead and/or live Sitka spruce into dimensional lumber

Now, cutting 'em standing, either dead or live, will be tricky. What part of that dream did you see this?     I know I got that wrong. 

How much experience have you had sawing wood?  And how much have you taking down the 5' and 6' diam trees? 

Sounds like some visits to mills with the swing blades in action as well as some circular saw mills large enough to saw lumber from these size trees would be in order.

Any problem getting the permits to drop trees in that Trinidad area?  I was near there with a logging crew Aug. '61 dropping trees this size and the preparation for just making a bed for the tree to land in was very impressive, as was the falling of the tree. Equipment to handle the logs was humongous. 

Your adventure sounds like a great one. Hope we hear more about it.  Welcome to the forum. It's gonna be fun. 
(Sure never hear'd of anyone hittin' a wrong key before. How'd such a thing happen anyways? : ??? )

[Woody Woodwrecker]

beenthere, I hit a return and tab to indent the next paragraph and it went to "post".  I have zero experience cutting trees anywhere near that large, just 18 to 24 incers here in Florida. And I've always cheated and used a backhoe to pull the tree where I wanted it to fall. I also have no experience with a sawmill, but I am handy with woodworking and metalworking tools. I'm an engineer but I also have a general contractors license,  and know my way arround equipment in general. Safety is always my number one priority, and I've already figured out I can get hurt doing something stupid! My plan was to start with some of the smaller tress that are down and then perhaps find a local pro to fell the large trees for me. I plan on moving my loader out there for moving logs and will probably be in the market for a backhoe when I actually relocate there for retirement (hopefully in 2 years). I guess my questions really revolve arround the real practicality of taking my sitka spruce logs and turning them into usable lumber. I met a young fellow building his house who cut some lumber using a Lucas and he said he would never do it again, her would just buy lumber. I think he said it was just too much work and too dirty. I guess I'm different, the thought of standing in a pile of sawdust producing good usable lumber really appeals to me. Just the thought of what kind of lumber might be hiding in those Sitka trees excites me, so I want to do it, even if I end up spending the same amount of money.

[Woody Woodwrecker]

woodbeard, when you get a derailment is it pretty violent? What is the chance of distorting the blade when you do? Do the saws have some sort of safety clutch or shear pin arrangement? Maybe I should read the owners manuals, do the manufacturers make those available before purchase? I lnow I'm firing off questions left and right, and thanks in advance for all the responses!

[Tom]

Where are you in florida, Woody Woodwrecker?   There's several of us members here.  You should plan on going to the Ag show in Moultrie, Georgia (just west of Valdosta) in October.  You will be able to see most of the mills and speak to factory Reps.


Sitka Spruce.   :-\ :P  Something special about that.

Isn't that the tree that was prized for Aircraft construction?

[Fletch]

Woody, I`ve been operating Ecosaws swing blades for 13 years and I`ve never had a derailment. And if the saw binds and comes back, and they will, it aint much of a problem as Ecosaws are operated from beside the head and outside the rails.
I mill a lot of logs up to 7ft and a swing blade for me is the only way to go.

[Woody Woodwrecker]

Tom, I'm near Titusville. The AG show sounds like a good idea, but I may be in California then. I'll check on the dates. Yes Sitka Spruce is or was an important aircraft wood due to its high strength to weight ratio. It's not as strong as Douglas Fir, but is still very suitable for general construction, either as dimensional lumber or beams. It could also be used as siding, but needs painting. It is aslo used as tonewood in guitars, pianos, etc. Obviously the higher grades would be used for aircraft and tonewood. I'll probably end up using clear aircraft grade spruce for 2 x4s for the simple reason that it's illegal to sell wood in CA without a timber harvest plan. My understanding is the THP is very expensive and not cost effective for the small land holder. But I'll use it in my cabin, better than it rotting on the ground. But I've even heard some people go so far as to say that it's best for the forest to let it decay instead of removing it. So I'll compromise, I'll use the nice usable wood and let the other wood decay. I'll replant and have a sustainable forest for my kids and their kids.

[Woody Woodwrecker]

Fletch, thanks, I'm going to look into the Ecosaws. I wonder why most of the swingblades come from down under? Is it the large logs you have there?

[brdmkr]

Woody

Welcome to the forum.  I have a Lucas 618 and I wouldn't really worry too much about it getting away from you.  It does tend to stall if you push it too hard, but I have never felt like I was going to get run over.  I'd be happy to let you run the mill if you are ever in the SW GA area.

[tomboysawyer]

I plan on moving my loader out there for moving logs and will probably be in the market for a backhoe when I actually relocate there for retirement (hopefully in 2 years). I guess my questions really revolve arround the real practicality of taking my sitka spruce logs and turning them into usable lumber.

My hubby would prefer to sell our trees (lots of cherry, sugar maple, and ash) and buy sticks at the local lumber yard. I'll hear nothing of it. I love standing in my sawdust. With my old Norwood I could saw topless (probably an option on a swingmill too), but my new modified Woodmizer makes bigger dust at a faster speed and I'm on the dust side so I need to keep the shirt on regardless of heat. Anyway, I love coming home covered in dust from whatever I've been milling - on my skin and clothes and in my hair. I'm sure you'll find a lot of good company here.

But I wanted to comment on equipment. While our mill is portable, we do move our logs to the mill on our 10 acres. We have a Dynahoe backhoe, a small loader (Ford CL40 - actually kinda big for a skid steer), and a small bulldozer (Case 450). I'm thinking that, in my experience, while hoes are good for pulling trees from inconvenient spots, a dozer or a skidder would be in order. As a contractor, I'm sure you have an appreciation for buying the right tool for the job. I would not recommend trying to do things with a tool that it really isn't made for and backhoes are not designed to be skidders. It would depend on your terrain, but I'd recommend the dozer as more diversified than a skidder for pulling your logs to the mill as well as other landscaping work.

With my small dozer, I can pull 50' of 24" ash up my mud-way (about 10 degree grade) without thinking about it.

With the value of your wood, the equipment should still be a bargain.

[woodbeard]

Here is a lil' birdy made of spruce.
It's also one of the best woods for acoustic guitar soundboards.

The times it came off the track, it was in the middle of coming to a screeching halt. It wasn't like it was taking off after me. Also, it can only really climb up the cut in the vertical position. In this case, you are pulling the saw, so if you lose control, it runs away from you. Still a bit unnerving, though.
Also, keep in mind, I got my Peterson used, fairly neglected, and not in the best alignment. I had to figure out a lot by trial and error. What I described was, obviously, one of the errors. :D
If you get a new mill, make sure you arrange to get the hands-on training from the manufacturer or their representatives.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Welcome to the Forum Woody Woodwrecker. There's GOTTA be a story behind that name.  : : :

  I happen to have Woodbeard's old, wore out Peterson. It is an 8" cut model. Without any experience on a Swing Blade, I am cutting a LOT of very hard wood in Costa Rica. I have gotten in binds, jumped the guide wheel over one notch, out of alignment, bumped the carriage out of alignment, on a severe tension log, and various other thngs. It's all in paying attention. : :

  This may sound like a lot of problems with Swing Blade mills, but, it's not. I have tried pretty hard to wreck a blade. Burned blue spots in it from scrubbing against the tension logs.The blade still cuts dead-on. Got in a big bind today, cutting very heavy Corteza lumber. Blade actually stalled pulling itself INTO the cut.

  Cancel that California trip and go to Moultrie. Best experience you will ever have.  ;) ;D ;D ;D

[Fletch]

Well Woody I recon the reason we developed swing blades is, firstly, our timbers tend to be preety dang {just had to use that word} hard. To try and put that in perspective, we get a fair bit of American white oak from parks and gardens and it would rate 6-7 on a scale of 10. Narrow band band saws just wont cope. Secondly, large logs, I rearely mill anything under 18-20 inch.
Add the hardness to the width and band saws just can`t cope.
Necissity is the mother of invention. So we found another way. :D

[Faron]

" Too much work, and too dirty" 

I think you are on the right track, disregarding the advice of someone who thinks in those terms.  ;)

If I were looking at milling logs of the size you are describing, I would be thinking swing blade as well.

[Qweaver]

Hey woody,
I own a small band mill and I was on the verge of buying a swinger eariler this spring, mainly so that I could saw some of the bigger timbers on my property.  I backed off of that idea mainly due to the limited size of boards that can be cut with a swinger.  The new D&L double cut may solve that problem but it's new and I was not willing to tie up the money when I had a saw that was fulfilling all of my needs for building my cabin.  I need lots of 10 to 12" boards and beams for my project and most swingers just can't do that easily. 
Having both a band mill and a swinger is the answer, but........
Good luck in your search.

Quinton

[jpgreen]

Welcome to the forum Woody..  8)

I'm in Trinity County next to yours, and get up to Trinidad a couple times a year.

Swingblade mills are the ticket for your needs.  The are safe solid machines.  The Bailey's have a Lucas down south in Laytonville on hwy 101 your can try.

If you need a recomendation for a good logger to fall those trees, I can suggest someone.

[UNCLEBUCK]

Welcome woody !  A company in california ,the largest aircraft spruce supplier in the world would offer you huge bucks for your sitka spruce www.aircraftspruce.com  ,  douglas fir is actually stronger and a better grade of wood for aircraft but the public is stuck on sitka , a average airplane made from douglas fir instead of sitka spruce would weigh no more than 15 pounds more and be stronger ! 

This aircraft spruce company also has a plant in Georgia and they resaw cants with a thin band blade because its so expensive that they down want any waste . Just one good 1x6x14 foot board sitka spruce can range from 120$ on up .

Use the log calculator here on the forum and use a general dollar figure like $20 dollars a board foot and see how much one of your trees is worth . I would be sitting down before you hit the total$ button .

You can buy alot of pine logs and a nice bandmill if you want

Good lucky woody !$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[jpgreen]

I know a guy with a Wood-Mizer LT40 that can help you saw up them boards..  ;D

[WkndCutter]

Woody,

Welcome to the forum.  I think you are spot on with your thinking.  A swing mill will work for logs that size.  You could take logs that size apart with a chainsaw and then use a band mill but that would be way too much work.  Speaking of work.  Sawing is work, fun work!  I have to agree with most all the posts that the time and energy spent sawing is well worth it.  When I see what has come out of the logs I cut at the end of the day, I'll tell you that you don't get anything like it from the wood store.  When I finish a project from wood I cut, its more than just accomplishment and pride.  I have not had the chance to cut wood from my own trees yet.  Your on the right track.  Have fun and enjoy retirement.

r/

Andy

[Woody Woodwrecker]

Thanks everyone for all the great responses, I'll try to responds as best I can.                             Brdmkr, I guess that was my fear, having the carriage fly back with that huge blade spinning.  Maybe it's one of those things that you think about at first, but after you use the mill a few times the fear subsides. Not that it's really fear, it's more like caution and respect, which should never subside really. Hmmmm, that has me thinking, I guess originally it is a mixture of fear, caution, and respect, then after you become confident and have some experience the fear part goes away leaving just caution and respect?
Thank you for the invite to run you mill, that is very decent of you! With the hurricane season upon us perhaps I'll have reason to be in SW GA sometime over the summer!
Tomboysawyer, this is retirement, you're beginning to make it sound like WORK! Seriously, I was looking at a larger used backhoe like a JD710, which can move quite a bit. But I will be doing some road building, so I've also considered a small dozer. I don't plan on doing enough wood to consider a skidder, my thought was I'll just work slower. I think just the appearance of a skidder in my area would raise a few eyebrows! My property is near timberland on one side and state/national park on the other, so there are "issues" doing anything on too large of a scale.
Woodbeard, great link, I'll have to make it up to Oregon to check on the Spruce Goose. I learned something new from your link; the Spruce Goose was made mainly from Birch, not Spruce!
Deadheader, I suppose I have wrecked a few boards here and there, but just on the tablesaw, I've yet to mill a single log. My wife is always yelling something about "measure twice, cut once" but the noise of the machinery sort of drowns out her voice, if you know what I mean. No way, I'll cancel my Ca trip, it's my once a year chance to be out of the rat race and "in the trees".  I think what I might do is go a little earlier than planned and get some measurements and pics of my trees and take that info to Moultrie

[Woody Woodwrecker]

WOW, I'm amazed at all the great responses I've had, this is a great forum and I've learned a lot already. One point I would like to make is I don't think selling any of my wood is in the cards for me because of the California regulations. I'll have to talk to a forester again, but my understanding is you need the timber harvest plan which is very costly. Exceptions are made for you own use of the material.  I will have to see if there is an exception for dead trees, blow downs, etc. I'm more interested in using the few healthy trees I would take down for house locations, defensible space clearings, dead trees, and the occasional blow down, but I'm not interested in logging the property for maximum gain.
Qweaver, I have not been able to find any info on the new D&L machine yet, do you have any details. You got me thinking that I need to think more about what lumber I need. I figured 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, and possibly some 2x10 for the cabin, plus siding and an occasional beam. I think an 8 inch swing blade would cover everything but the 2 x10. I know I could rotate the head for the 2 x 10 and even 1 x 12 even though it is not the most efficient way to mill lumber. My intent was to use 2 x 6 or 8 for roof decking and flooring. How do you use 1 x 12 in your cabin?