Adding length to a tractor winch

highway · January 04, 2016, 02:33:28 PM

I have some Pine logs to retrieve that is in a wet area that is beyond the 165' cable limit on the tractor winch. Can I simply use chains or heavy tree rope to add to the cable to get out to the distance I need?

Are the mechanics and line pull drastically altered? I need to get out around another 50 or 60 feet beyond the 165' on the winch. Some of these logs are 24" in diameter. I could cut some of them shorter to say 10' but would prefer to not go to 8'.

Thanks,

Ed

Hilltop366 · January 04, 2016, 02:47:59 PM

I have never done it but I think it will work, the more cable you have out the more pulling power you get.

roger 4400 · January 04, 2016, 02:59:38 PM

Ed I've use my Farmi winch and got logs that were near 225 ft from me, using a rope that resist 8,000 pounds. I logged 24 inches 17 ft long spruces and often used that with big pines also, I pulled almost all my wire on the winch and hung up the rope ( DO NOT use a rope that STRETCHES.) Be safe. Roger

LittleJohn · January 04, 2016, 03:04:07 PM

Quote from: roger 4400 on January 04, 2016, 02:59:38 PM
.... ( DO NOT use a rope that STRETCHES.) Be safe. Roger

I concour, and prefer to use chains (less likely to stretch and if they do I run like FORREST GUMP)

..also I would think that its more important to keep at least X amount of wraps on the drum (that determines capacity to pull)

grassfed · January 04, 2016, 03:46:10 PM

Quotethe more cable you have out the more pulling power you get.

Hmm that does not sound right to me.

I think that the less cable that is spooled on a winch the smaller the diameter of the spool so you have a better mechanical advantage for the pull but this does not mean that you have more pull when you add a length to the end of an unspooled cable.

It will only decrease the pulling power by the weight and friction of the added cable (not much) but it is not going to make the winch pull harder.

If you wind the new cable onto the spool you will loose some mechanical advantage as the diameter of the spool increases. The radius from where the cable lays on the spool to the center of the spool is like a lever working against the winch's pull so you loose some power with each wrap of cable.

grassfed · January 04, 2016, 04:01:26 PM

One more thing is the longer the cable the flatter (more obtuse) the angle from the pulley on the top of winch to the log. So this means that there will be more horizontal pull compared to vertical pull. Basically the log will want to dig a furrow. You could put a skid under the end of the log if that becomes a problem.

elk42 · January 04, 2016, 04:15:25 PM

Most winches are rated with one wrap on the spool and with each wrap you loose about 10% line pull with each wrap.

Offthebeatenpath · January 04, 2016, 04:56:28 PM

I'm no expert, but as I understand it, each layer on the drum (not individual wrap) decreases the line pull by varying percentage. 10% per layer is a simplified, decent rule of thumb. I think this page spells it out very well and succinctly:

http://www.innovation-engineering.co.uk/winch_theory.htm

They even have pretty photos and colored graphics that I could wrap (pun intended) my head around.

Of course in any winching situation, there may be other variables at work such as friction, gravity, mechanical advantage from blocks, etc., but knowing the pull strength of your power source is a fairly important (and often overlooked) place to start.

Hilltop366 · January 04, 2016, 05:33:25 PM

Quote from: grassfed on January 04, 2016, 03:46:10 PM
Quotethe more cable you have out the more pulling power you get.

Hmm that does not sound right to me.

I think that the less cable that is spooled on a winch the smaller the diameter of the spool so you have a better mechanical advantage for the pull but this does not mean that you have more pull when you add a length to the end of an unspooled cable.

Yep that is what I was trying to say, I guess I was not clear that I was not referring to the extension to the winch cable just the cable on the winch itself as in "the more cable you have out" (off the winch drum). Thanks for catching that.

woodmills1 · January 04, 2016, 06:34:57 PM

Also correct is that it is 10% less per layer not per individual wrap.

thecfarm · January 04, 2016, 07:09:16 PM

I have a Norse winch and I think I can only put 165 feet of 3/8 cable on it. When I need more length I have two long lenghts of cable and I have no idea how long each is,50-60-70 feet. I have a short piece of chain on one end and on the other end I have 4-5 slides to hook the logs to. One cable is only an extension. The other cable has the chockers on it. I can hook and unhook both of them very easily. The hard part is all the walking back and fourth. That is a time killer. But it does allow me to get to places I can not get with the tractor. I have 2 lenghts,because one short one can be used instead of one long one.If I need a longer lenght than I use both to reach what I want.

highway · January 05, 2016, 08:46:04 AM

Quote from: thecfarm on January 04, 2016, 07:09:16 PM
I have a Norse winch and I think I can only put 165 feet of 3/8 cable on it. When I need more length I have two long lenghts of cable and I have no idea how long each is,50-60-70 feet. I have a short piece of chain on one end and on the other end I have 4-5 slides to hook the logs to. One cable is only an extension. The other cable has the chockers on it. I can hook and unhook both of them very easily. The hard part is all the walking back and fourth. That is a time killer. But it does allow me to get to places I can not get with the tractor. I have 2 lenghts,because one short one can be used instead of one long one.If I need a longer lenght than I use both to reach what I want.

Do you notice a difference in pulling power by adding length to the logging winch cable?

thecfarm · January 05, 2016, 07:20:05 PM

No diffeance that I can see. Hard to say anyways. I have seen the winch pull a log,digging in the ground,knocking rocks over,uprooting roots and keep on pulling. Than other times I have a smaller log and what I feel a much easier pull and I can hear it working to winch it in.
All I have ever used the extensions is in the bog when there is snow on the ground.

ScottAR · January 05, 2016, 09:51:23 PM

If the logs are digging in, you could always put a remote snatch block off a tree to raise the cable. That should lift the log enough to ease it's travel.

enigmaT120 · January 06, 2016, 04:29:42 PM

Quote from: ScottAR on January 05, 2016, 09:51:23 PM
If the logs are digging in, you could always put a remote snatch block off a tree to raise the cable. That should lift the log enough to ease it's travel.

I've been wanting to experiment with that idea. Like a miniature yarding tower, or whatever they're called.

Hackermatack · January 06, 2016, 04:38:10 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on January 04, 2016, 07:09:16 PM
I have a Norse winch and I think I can only put 165 feet of 3/8 cable on it. When I need more length I have two long lenghts of cable and I have no idea how long each is,50-60-70 feet. I have a short piece of chain on one end and on the other end I have 4-5 slides to hook the logs to. One cable is only an extension. The other cable has the chockers on it. I can hook and unhook both of them very easily. The hard part is all the walking back and fourth. That is a time killer. But it does allow me to get to places I can not get with the tractor. I have 2 lenghts,because one short one can be used instead of one long one.If I need a longer lenght than I use both to reach what I want.

Pretty much what I do. When I replaced the cable on my winch I saved a couple pieces of the old one and rigged them as you describe so I can hook them to a slider hook just like a chain. Don't use them much but real handy at times.

John Mc · January 06, 2016, 07:00:00 PM

Quote from: grassfed on January 04, 2016, 04:01:26 PM
One more thing is the longer the cable the flatter (more obtuse) the angle from the pulley on the top of winch to the log. So this means that there will be more horizontal pull compared to vertical pull. Basically the log will want to dig a furrow. You could put a skid under the end of the log if that becomes a problem.

In theory, yes. In practice, no difference. By the time he has 165' of cable out, he's essentially pulling flat. Adding another 100' of rope or cable is not going to change the angle enough to make any measurable difference. Intervening terrain will have more of an effect.

Hackermatack · January 07, 2016, 07:44:10 AM

I must agree that adding more cable to a winch cable over 100' long is not going to make much difference in trajectory. On the terrain that I normally work it is a rare occasion that I can pull a tree 100' or more without it hanging up on something. I carry a snatch block but rarely use it as it is much faster to just use a choker to hook one of the cable slides to a stump, tree or whatever solid object is available to change the pull angle.

thecfarm · January 07, 2016, 08:08:52 AM

Hackermatack,you really realize how crooked you walk through the woods when you winch in a 100 feet of cable. ;D And I just use my chokers to change the direction of a pull too. I place a bid on snatch block,but did not keep bidding on it. When I was cutting in the bog,I was cutting everything. Nothing of log value,just fire wood. So there was no trees to get in the way. Just ALOT of walking back and forth to get the trees out.

Hilltop366 · January 07, 2016, 08:14:33 AM

Its really nice to have two people on those looooog pulls, those remote controls on the winch look kind of handy too.

Banjo picker · January 07, 2016, 10:41:11 AM

Quote from: enigmaT120 on January 06, 2016, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: ScottAR on January 05, 2016, 09:51:23 PM
If the logs are digging in, you could always put a remote snatch block off a tree to raise the cable. That should lift the log enough to ease it's travel.

I've been wanting to experiment with that idea. Like a miniature yarding tower, or whatever they're called.

One of these days... ;) ;)

John Mc · January 07, 2016, 01:56:44 PM

Quote from: Hackermatack on January 07, 2016, 07:44:10 AM
I must agree that adding more cable to a winch cable over 100' long is not going to make much difference in trajectory. On the terrain that I normally work it is a rare occasion that I can pull a tree 100' or more without it hanging up on something. I carry a snatch block but rarely use it as it is much faster to just use a choker to hook one of the cable slides to a stump, tree or whatever solid object is available to change the pull angle.

If I'm only winching in one or two logs, I sometimes use a stump to change directions. In that case, I'll just hook the cable over the stump and use the stump like a snatch block, rather than use a choker & slider. If I'm lucky, the stump is high enough to keep the cable around it when I need it to, but low enough that it will self-release when the log gets to it (I'm rarely that lucky). I tend not to use a slider much to change directions, since pulling at any significant angle through a slider is tough on the cable - it can take a tight radius over the edge of the slider. It may not be a big deal - maybe it will never cause me a problem with the cable - but I'm usually not in such a rush that I can't figure something else out, or just get my snatch block.

If I'm doing more than one or two logs, I find walking back to manually release the cable from that turning point to be more of a hassle than I want to deal with. If I can't get a straight pull out, I'll set up the snatch block. I try to drop my trees so a group of them will all pull out on more or less the same path, so I only set up the snatch block once for a group of logs.

Some times I'll even use the snatch block on what could be a straight pull: I'll pull the logs out to a snatch block across the trail, and have the tractor located at least a log length down the trail. Then as I pull the logs out, they cross the trail, release, and get redirected to lay up alongside of and parallel to the trail. Without the snatch block, I would have had to leave them just short of the trail. I find I can pull more logs from one set this way, since the first logs don't block the path of the next ones to be pulled. Also, the logs are all teed up and easily accessible for me to block up into stove lengths, split and throw into my trailer, I can load the whole log into trailer if I need it out in one piece.

Then I occasionally get the pull where I need two snatch blocks: either because I have one dogleg in my path, and want to do the "parallel to the trail" trick at the end, or if I have two doglegs in the pull. (Two doglegs is rare: usually, I can figure some other way out. Sometimes it happens because I already had the first block set up, and I want to go for another set of logs that is further from the trail without having to reset the tractor and clear a new, straighter path.) I have to admit, watching a log zigzag along through 2 self-releasing snatch blocks is kind of fun. I've got 230 feet of cable on my winch. It's rare I use all of it, but I have done it from time to time.

petefrom bearswamp · January 07, 2016, 04:19:46 PM

10 layers on the drum means 0 pulling power?
I seriously doubt this. Must be a formula somewhere in a physics book that can address this.

petefrom bearswamp · January 07, 2016, 04:22:34 PM

I guess my math is flawed, 10 % per layer would still have some amount of pull left.
1000 less 10 % 900 less ten % 810 and so on.
Still seems like quite a loss.

John Mc · January 07, 2016, 06:35:12 PM

It's inversely proportional to the diameter of what you are winding on. If the build-up of layers doubles the diameter of the empty drum, you will have 1/2 the pull. If your winding only adds 10% to the diameter (so D is now 1.1 X the diameter of the empty drum) the new pull will be decreased by 1/1.1= 91% of the empty drum