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Starting a company

Started by Mark Wentzell, December 20, 2013, 08:29:53 PM

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Mark Wentzell

I'd like to some day run my own mechanical harvesting operation. I've always liked cut to length harvesters, always wanted to learn to run one. Anyway, I had a few questions...

First off can one portor (Forwarder) and one harvester produce enough to support a company? I know this depends on wood quality and price and a million other factors but can this size of operation work?

Is older equipment worth owning? 10 years old, 15 years old, how old is too old? Do maintenance and upkeep on older machines outweigh the price of interest on new machines? I see older gear for sale all the time, is this stuff just for scrap or is it worth running?

Is it feasible for an owner to run a machine and find jobs, deal with landowners, do layout and all the other stuff required to run a business? On that note how do you find jobs? I know word of mouth is how a lot of guys do it, but how do you get those first few jobs before your name gets around? Would it be better to find a job before buying gear?

How much maintenance/repairs do owners generally do themselves? When is it worth it to do it yourself and when is it better to hire out? I figure I'd need to get good at welding and get better at figuring out electrical problems.

I wouldn't ever expect to get rich at this. I know there are a lot of headaches with running a business. I know the whole industry is pretty dismal right now and New Brunswick is probably the worst place to make a living at it, but I'd still love to try.I appreciate any answers, there's a lot I'm sure I haven't thought about yet.  I'm finishing a forest technology diploma right now and will be getting a degree after that so it'll be a little while before I get moving on this, if I do get moving on this.  :-\

thecfarm

The guy that does my logging has 2 havesters to keep one forwarder busy. He was looking for a used hot saw and had a hard time finding a so called good one.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

CX3

There is no way I would jump into logging with a bunch of expensive equipment.  Get you a little skidder and a good chainsaw and see what your made of before tieng up cash in forwarders. 

As said before, a skidder owner is also a skidder mechanic lol
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BargeMonkey

Start out small, a small forwarder or cable skidder and build your self up from there. Word of mouth helps, but remember you cant please everyone. I went from a dozer and small cable to a fellerbuncher and 2 skidders with a loader and slasher in 3 years. Sometimes to be honest its to much equipment, always something to fix, parts and maintenance never end. Start out small, and avoid employees at all cost.

SwampDonkey

Get some good mechanical work, welding and electrical behind your hard hat. There's lots of fixing to do. Then work for someone for awhile until you get the wax out of your ears. ;D It would be about impossible to get a big loan on forestry equipment, just starting out with lots of uncertainty. You have to show the lenders a bunch of paper work about the jobs that are lined up to pay for this stuff. The equipment you need depends on who your working for. On crown it could be a lot different than woodlots. A good portion of the woodlots are already cut in the last 30 years, those that ain't aren't gonna until ownership on that land changes. Also be aware that someone is always watching. There is one fella around here (of many) that doesn't own any equipment, he hires it all like a timber boss.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

MJD

I met a guy who made it work, he would run the harvester for half the day then get in the forwarder and put the pulp wood right on his trailer until it was loaded, then get in the truck and take the load to the mill (mill was over 2 hours away) and drive back to the woods for a few hours sleep in the cab of his semi. He did this for 3 days and the 4th day after dropping the load of pulp off he would go home to his family for a few days if he had nothing to fix. The way I met this guy is he was cutting pine on stateland next to us and it hade been raining on and off, about 8pm he nocks at our door and asked if I could drive the semi while he pushed with forwarder so he could get out of the woods 8).So it can be done, but its not easy and not for everyone.

Firewoodjoe

Well welcome. And I don't think there's anyone that wants a logging company more then me. Dad ran one for years and got out. I had a 440 cable and tried on the side didn't work so well. Made money (just) but it needs all your time not some. So I work for a local crew and increased my firewood business. I will still have a full time logging company someday. Gotta have dreams. The hard part around here is stumpage. Anyone will loan u money or sell u iron but u have to be on the ball with a pocket full of cash to buy wood. And let the highest bidder be the winner! Which just eats up ending profit. Try buying some wood. Get a few jobs and sell them to another crew. See if u can get it profitable before u get stuck with equipment. U can sell wood the same day u buy it. You'll site on that skidder if things to bad

jdament

If your just going to have 2 pieces of equipment get a harvester and a single bunk forwarder.  That way the harvester can pretty much keep up with the forwarder.  And yes you need to fix your own stuff.  Taking it to someone costs way to  much and repairs will just kill you.

thenorthman

I like me the used equipment, you save so much at first by not having that big payment over your head.  If you take your time and buy the best you can afford, and spend some time looking, you should be able to find something that will run good for you.  Just remember its old and needs to be babied a little bit.

New or used you will need to get good at wrenching, logging is hard on equipment, even the best operators break stuff, things wear out, thats logging.  Parts are generally not cheap, and the mechanics are even more expensive then your standard auto mechanic (out here its starts at $120. an hour + trip charge).

As far as getting work... best thing I could say is talk to the log buyers at your local mills, or the mill foresters, and get on the bid list, then do some number crunching and get your costs figured out quick.  Many a logger has sunk himself in debt because he didn't figure out how to pay himself and his equipment, not to mention insurance, diesel, parts, trucking... taxes, stumpage, permitting.

I've heard of folks that ran a processor and forwarder solo and made a living at it, but where talking 12 hour days 6 in each cab.  And then home for paperwork or stay in the brush and wrench on equipment.

Try to hire out the trucking if you can (not every area has a self loader), running a highway truck is way more expensive then it first appears, the insurance alone will choke a guy... then a payment on top of that, and a driver cause a truck can't sit, diesel, Tires (18-26 of em at $400 a pop every year or other)... not to mention fines...

I'm with some others on here, get yourself a little skidder and a couple of good chainsaws, find some private ground to work the kinks out, then worry about getting bigger.

By the way in my opinion, CTL logging has its place, but to make it profitable you have to have a constant supply of timber in front of you, even then its barely profitable, where as hand falling and skidding, a one man show can make a fairly good show of it.  If I can land some decent timber on a regular basis and timber prices don't go down the crapper again, I'm pretty sure I could afford to take winters off.
well that didn't work

BargeMonkey

 Maybe its just a regional thing but finding stumpage or wood is the least of our problems up here. They just changed the way woodlots are bought off the state around here, nothing under 10k minimum bid, so that just further kills my competition. There was always a few 2-3k woodlots to bid on, made fill in winter work, now they dont wanna be bothered with the little guys, its kinda a shame because unless your mechanical or "ny tlc" your out of luck.

Ken

Mark.  Although I admire your desire to eventually have your own logging business there are a number is things that you really need to consider before heading down that road.  Unless you have very deep pockets stuffed with cash you want to dispose of making the investment in ctl equipment without any prior logging, merchandising or marketing experience would be foolhardy.  Although I have been able to make my payments and a modest living running older equipment I had 25 years of previous experience around logging operations before making the jump.  Even then getting financing was a challenge.

Finding enough ground to keep the equipment running is always an issue.  Without an opportunity to work on industrial freehold land I don't think there would be enough opportunity to keep my machinery operating year round and I only cut a couple of trailerloads/day.  With newer equipment you will probably be required to work 24 hours/day and produce several loads/day.  You are correct that you need to be able to do the vast majority of your mechanical work which requires a great deal of tools and knowledge.  The last time I had a dealer service tech come to the woods it was nearly $150/hr.

If I was in your position I would try to get in with a logging company as a field technician.  In time that may offer you the opportunity to spend a bit of time in a seat of a machine.   I am only a few miles north of you if you ever want to come out and see how we do it. 

Cheers
Ken
Lots of toys for working in the bush

PaYoungBuck

I'm just starting up again right now. Bought a nice 540B cable skidder had a couple of my saws from the last time. Watch craigslist I've bought a couple real nice saws cheap. Te start up costs are a killer. Plan on changing all oils and filters before you work it. As it is right now I owe under 15,000. I lined up a great guy to cut for. Also never turn down work. In currently running dozer building oil lease roads for a few months. Got the work cutting the new roads,locations and lines by doing so. Getting laid off from the shop was just the push I wanted/needed. Best of luck like everyone says start small. If something major breaks you wanna be able to make your payments working somewhere else if you can't afford to fix it right away.

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