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First Thinning a Pine Plantation in the South

Started by WDH, September 15, 2009, 09:32:12 AM

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WDH

Yes Sir, that is a fact.  The 500 pound gorilla that owns 6 sawmills in the area are pushing all the Suppliers that way.  Kicking and screaming.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

nativewolf

WDH:  why the kicking and screaming? Just the equipment costs?  Or ?  Seems to me that the SYP plantations in the south, say VA to MS/LA would be perfect for CTL.  Worker training?  I could see processor costs being much higher initially as there seems to be  steep learning curve.
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Skeans1

We use to do tree length pull through before CTL after all the extra labor and maintenance it's been cheaper doing CTL. The learning curve can be steeper but it can be picked up pretty quick.
Are the guys using dangles or fixed processor heads?

WDH

Basically they have to buy a $500,000 machine to haul to only one market. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

nativewolf

Quote from: WDH on May 15, 2018, 07:18:15 AM
Basically they have to buy a $500,000 machine to haul to only one market.
They can use CTL to cut for all the markets though, right.  I mean a CTL machine will fly through some pulp, it's what the rest of the world (except SE US) is moving towards.  Especially now that the softwood mills are all designed to handle/intake small sawlogs, small ply logs, etc. But basically it is not just the $500k machine though, they need two $300k forwarders to keep up with each CTL processor?  
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mike_belben

Its like when you finally get the car paid off and it needs replaced. Dont we all say im gonna drive the wheels off this one?

 When you finally get over the years it took to pay for the skidder and knuckleboom and trucks... Then they say its time to sell it all (to who if the whole region suddenly has to go CTL or quit?) And start over back at the bottom rung on the debt ladder.  

  How do you sleep at night thinking this one company had the power to force me into CTL.. And i have no guarantee they wont cut me off one i sign the mortgage on it.   I know i couldnt. 

Plenty of loggers live on $100k properties.  How do you tell the wife youre gonna borrow $300k on a used machine just to have a job?  The number suck.  
Praise The Lord

Skeans1

Quote from: nativewolf on May 15, 2018, 07:46:11 AM
Quote from: WDH on May 15, 2018, 07:18:15 AM
Basically they have to buy a $500,000 machine to haul to only one market.
They can use CTL to cut for all the markets though, right.  I mean a CTL machine will fly through some pulp, it's what the rest of the world (except SE US) is moving towards.  Especially now that the softwood mills are all designed to handle/intake small sawlogs, small ply logs, etc. But basically it is not just the $500k machine though, they need two $300k forwarders to keep up with each CTL processor?  
You can cut any length you want we've cut 41' in the brush using a grapple track skidder to yard, up here there's guys using forwarders to yard 37' logs out. The main question becomes can the guys make it replacing a buncher, a pull through a skidder or two and all the guys into two machines in the brush? We went from 5 guys in the brush to two with 60 gallons or so a day of fuel use vs probably 150.

nativewolf

yeah, that is massive savings.  3 FTE's and 100 gallons a day.  That's almost a $1000/day in fuel and labor.  That pays a pretty large financing note, assuming you can keep them all working.  Same production?  
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mike_belben

Theres another side of it.. Im sure theres a few crews out there thatve become family.  How do you tell those few guys you dont need em anymore.  Then have to see them with their kids out at walmart or the fair every few months.  In the rural south thats reality.. You see every one in town once in a while.  How do i go to thanksgiving dinner after i let my second cousin go to pay for a processor. I have a friend going through it right now over selling his septic business. 
Praise The Lord

nativewolf

Small town living is the same nearly anywhere there is forestry work.  I've worked from Pilpala Finland to Watersmeet MI to Essan, Thailand, to Wonju Korea.  Some teams are family some family are teams....if they don't get efficient the team will get run over.  

I predict pain for lots of folks with expensive new skidders.  On the other hand in the next few years there may be some cheap good feller bunchers on the market.
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mike_belben

I had a business that was very efficient but not profitable.  I had another that was extremely inefficient but very profitable.  8 yrs, i started at 700% profit margin and sold it when i was "down" around 300%.

Cash flow is a much better indicator of survival than efficiency, in my opinion.  But i concede your predictions are probably right
Praise The Lord

nativewolf

Quote from: mike_belben on May 15, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
I had a business that was very efficient but not profitable.  I had another that was extremely inefficient but very profitable.  8 yrs, i started at 700% profit margin and sold it when i was "down" around 300%.

Cash flow is a much better indicator of survival than efficiency, in my opinion.  But i concede your predictions are probably right
Be on the lookout for some good used stuff in a few years if CTL comes to the south.  
Liking Walnut

barbender

Quote from: nativewolf on May 15, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on May 15, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
I had a business that was very efficient but not profitable.  I had another that was extremely inefficient but very profitable.  8 yrs, i started at 700% profit margin and sold it when i was "down" around 300%.

Cash flow is a much better indicator of survival than efficiency, in my opinion.  But i concede your predictions are probably right
Be on the lookout for some good used stuff in a few years if CTL comes to the south.  
Dem boys are hard on equipment down there.
Too many irons in the fire

WDH

The pulpmills in GA (and there is a scad of them, like 12 or 13) don't like cut to length pulp.  They want treelength.  Most sawmills will only take tree-length.  It is all about what your markets want. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Skeans1

Sounds like they want the over run, can you guys cut 41' saw logs? Mills don't like CTL because you can figure lengths faster and based on a value better then by hand. Even if they want tree length do they want feathers and all? I'm amazed you guys can haul tree length down the highways.

mike_belben

Id have to go find my slip to be certain but im pretty sure pulp length here on the plateau is 15 to 25 ft, and 23" max, 4 or 6 inch min.  I know it gets rehandled, probably to bowater(reliance FP) or possibly rocktenn. But i do see tree length going off the mountain to them all the time as well so i dunno.

I hauled one pulp load, took me all day to get it loaded because my forklift is horrible at it and i didnt have bobcat grapple at the time.  I got like $110 and said never again.  Id rather bring it home to my firewood pile. 
Praise The Lord

nativewolf

Quote from: Skeans1 on May 15, 2018, 09:33:24 PM
Sounds like they want the over run, can you guys cut 41' saw logs? Mills don't like CTL because you can figure lengths faster and based on a value better then by hand. Even if they want tree length do they want feathers and all? I'm amazed you guys can haul tree length down the highways.
Yeah they clearly want the overrun.  Of course the mills there in GA are the most efficient there are, they are pretty darn good at full tree utilization, bark, scrap & dust fuels, chip & saw recovery from butts, etc.  Ok, in that case I can see the case for non ctl.  But once it starts, the costs of running CTL should overwhelm the others unless the mills are going to pay more.  Will be interesting to see it play out.  
Frankly if I were a new mill and I said I wanted CTL and had a logger or two with the equipment I could setup to pay more for good clean logs proper lengths and all.  Heck, I would think with data tools in the new processors I'd even be able to know exactly how much wood is coming to me every single hour of cutting.  Maybe they do that already and I am slow.  
If I knew exactly how much was coming and what dimensions I'd be able to figure out what I could cut and go ahead and pre-sell that on into the market in a forward contract.  I'd never actually own much of the wood, no inventory at all.  
The mill could have a smaller log staging area, everyone else would be your bank, and you'd sweep up all the wood you wanted as you could pay more.  
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WDH

One way to look at it is that the mill is placing the cost to cut the logs to the proper length before sawing on each logger.

In some areas, CTL has been the norm from the beginning.  In most of the South where the main game is SYP, the mills moved from CTL many eons ago to tree length to reduce logging cost. 

In many things in life, it is all a big circle.  What goes around comes around. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

nativewolf

Also, full tree utilization is a lot of soil mining.  As a landowner I'd much rather see ctl and leave the tops.
Liking Walnut

nativewolf

Quote from: WDH on May 16, 2018, 07:44:20 AM
One way to look at it is that the mill is placing the cost to cut the logs to the proper length before sawing on each logger.

In some areas, CTL has been the norm from the beginning.  In most of the South where the main game is SYP, the mills moved from CTL many eons ago to tree length to reduce logging cost.  

In many things in life, it is all a big circle.  What goes around comes around.
Right but did they ever have the modern dangle head processors/forwarders?  I left plantation pine work 20 years ago so I'm not so up to date,  I know mills found it better to not sort and buck at the logging site and developed processes to do all of that at the mill and make money doing it.  I also see the entire rest of the world using a different process.  Something's up.  I could see the pulp mills still wanting tree length but if I am a sawmill....I could definitely see a path to $ by getting my loggers to go to CTL.  
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Matt601

A good chainsaw and a 2 foot stick does good too. Most saw mills around here want it in 12/14/16 foot sticks anyway. I'm cutting a lot almost just like the pics 12 inch's At 16 foot. 25 trees per load saw logs. I'm getting a load of saw logs and a load of pulpwood a day.
No matter where you go there you are!!!

dsroten

No tree length anything in my neck of the woods in NW NC.  8-16 foot in 2 ft increments with trim is only option.   I cut for grade amyways when i can but i know must bigger loggers here are pretty much using a bucksaw and slashing everything 16 ft

SwampDonkey

Studwood and logs is CTL here, but pulp is treelength. We used to have a 4' softwood pulp market up until the 90's. You could haul a pickup load of 4 foot pulp to some mills if you wanted to. You would need to be close by of course to be viable. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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