Butcher Block Glue

[YellowHammer]

I am considering recycling some my low grade wood into higher value butcher block and cutting board blanks.  I've made a few butcher block tops and cutting boards before, but only for my personal use, and standard Titebond glue.  If this scheme pans out I could 10X increase the value my low grade wood, but I want to sell a durable product that will last the customer for many years.  One of my concerns is the durability of the strip glue joints.  What is the best glue for this application?  Want do the companies who make commercial butcher block and cutting tables use? Is is a specialty glue I can purchase?  Is there any kind of dishwasher safe glue? (I ask because I've put a Discount Store el chepo glued up cutting board into the dishwasher and it survived).  Or should I just stick with Titebond.
Thanks for any help
YH

[beenthere]

I'd consider a resorcinol glue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resorcinol_glue

As for dishwasher safe, in my opinion wood doesn't belong in a dishwasher. The wood takes up water, swells, and differential shrinking and swelling will rip the wood apart near the glue line.
But even white glue (elmers) will stand an occasional trip through the dish pan, but I'd not put a cutting board in the dishwasher. My walnut/maple cutting boards I've used regularly for 40 years are with white glue and no delamination seen. They get scrubbed, and rinsed and dried. No time to soak up water.

And Titebond should also work ok.

[Larry]

I've used TB-3 because of the good water resistance and longer open time.  Use heavy duty I beam clamps and clamp hard.  Cutting boards should never see a dishwasher.

[Axe Handle Hound]

There is some good info on urea formaldehyde glues in this article from David Marks.  If you're planning to big time on the butcher blocks this is a good read.  http://www.djmarks.com/pdf/ureaglue.pdf

[ron barnes]

I have had pretty good success using TB 3.  I do not put cutting boards in the dishwasher.  I can thoroughly clean my boards at the sink and then dry them properly.  When needed, I rub them down with mineral oil.  Wood should not be put in a dishwasher.

[YellowHammer]

I agree with not putting them in the dishwasher but I had sliced up some really nasty stuff on the board and decided that a trip through the dishwasher sterilization cycle was my last hope of ever using it again. I half expected my cheap cutting board to fall apart but it didn't so was impressed with whatever they used to glue it together  :D

Some very good info in the replies. I definitely want to turn this into a routine business operation so speed and ease of application is important

I notice nobody is recommending epoxy glue? 
YH

[beenthere]

YH
You could try several glues that might fit into your production scheme, and see how they are to work with and see how well they hold up. Prep time, setting time, clamping time, etc.
Also, see how you like the glue line that remains in the cutting board. Some will be dark, others not so dark.

You might like the epoxy that you are thinking about. ;)

[Hilltop366]

Wondering if there is any food safety issues or requirements for cutting boards.

[Compensation]

YH, if all else fails don't overlook bench tops (the kind you sit on). My work just had some benches in the locker room start to break at the joints. They were built in 9/81 and just now started to give when they turned the a/c off and the high humidity we have. If you do make these, it wouldn't hurt to pop a dowel rod every so often.

Last year I missed out on a hydraulic clamp system. It was 3 phase and held up to 42 projects clamped. I am sure you could build your own rack system and buy a cleco gun to keep tension even.

Here is a care and use for your cutting boards: hand wash with light soap, warm water and wipe dry. Prolonged soaking is not recommended. Not for use in microwave or dishwasher. In the event of a crack or joint failure discard cutting board immediately.

[Axe Handle Hound]

I notice nobody is recommending epoxy glue? 
YH

I detest epoxy for woodworking.  It stinks, it's expensive, it somehow gets on everything and if it hasn't been completely mixed it never dries up, isn't water soluble, and it has horrible "creep" during clamping.  Others may love it, but it has no place in my shop.   

[Ianab]

Although many people detest it for various reasons Polyurethane "Gorilla" glue works good for cutting boards. 100% waterproof and non toxic once it cures. It can be messy, but less hassle to use than epoxy, and I would think it would survive washing and even a dishwasher better than most?

Ian

[m wood]

I should be a sales associate for gorilla.  I Haven't glued together a cut board in many-a-year.  But if something is gonna see water, ever, Gorilla is "da man" ;D
mark

[SPIKER]

From the title I thought  "BIG HEAVY SQUARE" type Butcher Block not little ole cutting board type of block...   What species of wood are you planning on using?  Some species are more "closed cell" for lack of a better term so that water/bacteria can not penetrate the wood fibers as easy should mineral oil get washed away.   Lots of people will not know how to care for them so be sure to include care instructions with them or burn them into edge on one side.   

I'm interested in same thing but want to build some BIG OLE HEAVY style ones.

Mark

[Compensation]

Just to toss this out there, in one of my books it states that sycamore makes a good butcher block top. I cut up some cants for a kitchen utensils woodworker in trade for info on how it worked out. I never heard back unfortunately.

[YellowHammer]

I'm going to try to make these glue ups in various thicknesses out of pretty much every type of wood that I have, from cherry, walnut, oak, hickory, etc.  With every load that comes out of the kilns I always have a percentage of low quality "project" wood, or #2 common that I sell at a very reduced price.  I also have a lot of trimmings when edging my boards.  In order recoup some money from this waste, I saw these trimmings and defective boards 2 to 3 inches wide, 2 to 3 feet long, put them in a stack of about 10 bdft, wrap them with pallet binding material and sell them as ready made blocking and bracing for people to use when they build furniture and cabinets so they don't have to use their good wood they just bought from me ;D.
The other day, I noticed that these bundles looked like ready made butcher block table tops or cutting boards held together with pallet strapping instead of glue.  So that gave me the idea to turn this $1/bdft blocking into $5 or $10 per bdft premade table tops or cutting board blanks.  I mentioned it to a few of my customers, and they said they would buy them, so I figured I'd give it a try.  I also have a lot of narrow, 2" or 3" x 8 foot long boards which don't sell well that I could also use if this pans out.
From reading the Forum, I gathered that some folks turn these low quality boards into flooring and such, but I thought why not turn them into glue up table or butcher block blanks, bench seats or counter tops?  I really don't know what the end product will be, I'll have to make a few and see what sells.
So I'm trying to do a little experimenting and from the posts it seems that since I won't know how the customer will eventually use the blanks, I should try to cover as many bases as possible.  So the glue needs to be waterproof if possible, non toxic, adhere to many different types of wood species, crack filling, no odor,  have a long life and easy to work with.
I appreciate all the advice, this may very well turn into a waste of time, but the more advice I can get, the higher the chances of this actually working.
YH

[jueston]

i have made a lot of cutting boards as gifts and to sell at craft fairs and i always used TB3. i include care directions that say to never put them in the dishwasher, but for kicks i did send one of mine which i didn't like through the dishwasher a few times and it survived, most the wax/mineral oil finish was gone from the hot water.

also interesting, i burned one of them and i expected that the glue joint would fail after it heated up, but some of the glue joints lasted until there wasn't much left but black chard chunks glued together.

IMHO its better to include good care instructions then try to create a wooden thing which can withstand the dishwasher on a regular basis....  if people want something to throw in a sink of water, and then throw into the dishwasher, they should look into plastic.

when i use epoxy or gorilla glue, i tend to get them all over the place, and its so hard to clean off of my clamps and work surface... 

[thecfarm]

I think care instructions would add to the product. A little about your mill too,and maybe something about being "green" would help too. Some would know about the care part,but just to have it on there adds to the product. Put your name,website on it too.

[Larry]

I've been gluing together scraps for years to make something useful.  I usually use Titebond but the end uses determines if it will be the Original, TB-2, or TB-3.  No problems as of today.  Gorilla glue might work well but I wonder about getting complete coverage on the wood.  I've always squeezed out a small bead than clamped...maybe it's something to not worry about.  I have used Unibond, a plastic resin with good results but it's not glue I can run to Lowes and pick up.

I think the most demanding board glue up was for a fish cleaning counter top.  It is on a dock under roof, but gets hosed off on a continual basis and still solid, but ugly as sin after 10 years.  TB-3 was used.

Typical glue up for a dining table.



More pictures in my gallery woodworking section of the completed table.

I have several tops to glue up this winter.  One will be a table for a metal lathe, and the other is for a reloading bench.

If I was doing this all the time I would rig up pneumatic clamps to speed assembly.  Don't forget cauls to align the strips.

[Axe Handle Hound]

Larry- is that all a single glue up?  You're one brave soul if you took on that many glue joints in a single shot.   It seems like it never fails that despite the dry fitting being perfect, the second I put glue to that many pieces I find a never ending supply of gaps in the joints. 

[Larry]

Yes, that's a single glue up.  Note that only two of the clamps are pipe, the rest are "I" beam clamps.  Even though I have a raft of "K" body clamps I won't use them on this type of glue up.  Just can't get enough pressure out of them to insure no gaps.  And the thought that one can squeeze all of the glue out of a joint with excess clamping force, is just one of those internet fables.  Of course the joint must fit well no matter how much clamping force is applied.

[beenthere]

I don't think it is an internet fable that you can have too much excess clamping force. There has been plenty of research when testing glue line failures to show this.
A good glue line will hold up under failure tests better than the wood it bonds together. Excessive clamping will squeeze out the glue and leave a glue line that fails in the glue itself.
Trying to squeeze out voids, such as planer dips and warped lumber is difficult at best.

Granted, your clamping may not be close to squeezing too much glue out of the glue line, so may not be an issue of too much clamping pressure. ;)

There are many resources to read up on it, and here is but one.
http://www.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdonlyres/304D4513-D3C7-45FE-973A-F2717FFCD9B3/3807/pub2587gluing.pdf

[Axe Handle Hound]

Theoretically you could overclamp your project, but I tend to think that it's not as practically possible as it sounds.  Depending on the species and size of your glue lines you would need to use a lot of clamps and they would have to exert massive amounts of pressure in order to overdo it.  I remember reading this article in Fine Woodworking and thought it was very interesting.  Based on it, I'd say it's possible, but not probable unless we're talking softwoods.   http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/27121/how-to-glue-up-joints-different-woods-need-different-clamping-pressure

[YellowHammer]

Yep, that's exactly want I want to do with my scraps.   8)
YH

[3Dog]

I hope this isn't piggybacking the thread but it seems a good place to ask the question regarding glue ups.

I will be making a walnut butcher block style island top as a gift for a good friend.
I will be using strips 7/8 x 1 7/8 to achieve a finished size roughly 5'x6'.
I have had all of the strips run through a moulder to insure uniform size and optimal glue joint surface.

I know I am going to have to do several small glue ups, using tight bond 2, then glue the segments together to final width.  However, do I need to add mechanical fasteners such as threaded rod or stainless screws to minimize the risk of the joints opening up over time, humidity changes and use?

If so how would you recommend making those reinforcements?

Thanks!

[Busy Beaver Lumber]

My two cents. I make over 300 cutting boards a year. I personally use Titebond II wood glue and have not had a single glue joint failure yet. I use this in all of our wood glue ups except for exterior signs and I go through about two gallons plus of this glue a month. When I do exterior signs I use titebond III because it is better rated for exterior applications.

From titebonds website:

Titebond II Premium Wood Glue is the only leading brand, one-part wood glue that passes the ANSI Type II water-resistance specification. It is ideal for exterior woodworking projects, including outdoor furniture, birdhouses, mailboxes, planters and picnic tables.

Titebond II Premium provides a strong initial tack, fast speed of set, superior strength and excellent sandability. It is FDA approved for indirect food contact (cutting boards) and is ideal for radio frequency (R-F) gluing systems.

So far as putting a wood cutting board in a dishwasher, That is a huge mistake and should never be done. proper care is to hand clean and keep coated with a light, but frequent application of food safe mineral oil.

Another thing worth mentioning is that care must be taken not to allow cutting board to sit in say a puddle of water on a counter top for an extended period of time as this can cause them to crack. There are a few good videos on youtube showing the results of doing so, and how to actually fix the damage.

[3Dog]

Thank you for your response. I use titebond II aswell.  I will hold off
on any additional mechanical fasteners.

I have done several cutting board as well but nothing even close to this large
of a glue up. I'm kinda nervous when I see how much walnut I have tied up in this top. Could be a very expensive learning experience if I screw it up.

[Busy Beaver Lumber]

3 Dog

The one thing i love about wood working is that almost any screw up or boo boo can be fixed with just a bit of ingenuity. Once in a while I will glue up a cutting board and notice that I used a piece of wood that had a crack that I overlooked when arranging the pieces for the board. In that case, I just chuck it on the table saw, cut out the bad piece, run the two remaining cutting board halves across the jointer, pick a new piece without a crack to replace the one I cut out, and glue the three pieces back together.

The biggest thing you need to worry about is not being stingy on the glue and not over clamping suck that you squeeze too much of the glue out of the joint.

[3Dog]

 

  

 

Thanks for the responses to my fastener questions.

I did do the glue up in 2 sections which are now being joined.  I will post the finished/installed top early next week (then I wont add more to my already committed thread highjacking sin). I am scheduled to install it on Monday.  Lucky for me the weather will be a balmy -11 degrees for a high, with wind chills of - 55 BELOW ZERO! Luckily I don't have to truck the the top far from the heated shop so I hope it wont create issues with the top getting too cold.

[beenthere]

Looking great so far.

Handling that size glue-up would seem to me to be the biggest concern while moving it around before the installation.  A good foundation while moving will be important, IMO.

What are the plans for finishing the top and edges?

[3Dog]

The customer is looking for a simple round over of the top and bottom edge.  As for the finish, I believe that a simple soaking of several coats of mineral oil on all surfaces is the current plan.  However I am always open to passing on options if anyone  has a better suggestion.

[jueston]

i recently had a customer who installed a big butcher block top on some cabinets i installed. she told me she had several cutting boards and never intended to cut anything directly on the butcher block top so my advice to her was to use a polyurethane finish, since i believe that will hold up better that the mineral oil and bees wax finish i normally recommend for food preparation surfaces...