New here - Clearing the pine trees on our land, is this contract fair?

[username]

Hello and good morning,

I am new here, so thank you for your patience and support and help.

My family, including me, owns about 12 acres of land, with our house, in the north Houston, TX area.

The property has several pine trees that have been there for years or decades, some of which are close to the house.

I would say that in total, the property has about ~400-500 trees of varying diameter, all of them are tall, 50 ft or more.

I have looked around for loggers to cut the trees and buy the lumber. There aren't that many willing to come here, because we are semi-urban, so their distance to the saw mills can be long.

About a year ago one quote that I received was $10/ton for 8/10,$15 a ton on 12 and up and $2/ton on pulpwood. That was a year ago, and I did not proceed due to several episodes of rain last year.

I have reached out to the local forestry resources, but the most I have got from them is information on best practices, etc. I could hire a forest consultant as a resource, but many of them live further out.

Now, another logger who is keen to do the work, is proposing:

a) That he cut the lumber

b) He would pile us the branches and debris (that is large enough to be grabbed or moved by his machines) into several piles, that I can later dispose of, burn, etc.

c) He will not pay us anything for the lumber, but rather, do the clean up as discussed above

d) That he has a period of 6 months to clear the land. He feels it will take about 2 weeks, but wants a contingency for 6 months.

My family and I want to clear the trees, so we can use the land for pasture, planting fruit trees etc. We are very new to this, so any and all advice is very welcome.

thank you kind people
username

[Spartan]

Don't know the state laws in Texas, but here, the logger pays "slash" to the state, so what is required is that you are supposed to pile all tops and branches in the landing area, and only leave a certain amount of tonnage on the ground where you logged.  Then when the LOGGER disposes of the slash, aka burns it, the state will give them back the slash money.  We pay 15-20 a ton in stumpage for softwood to the landowner here in MT and our lumber prices suck.   

If he is putting in a road and clearing ALL your area, maybe...   

Oh, and we also put in road and do some land clearing for that price.

But, you don't have much wood, so it might be difficult to find someone willing to log it.

Hope that helps

[username]

Thank you.

He is not going to remove any stumps, and I fear that he may just take the trees and do some superficial piling up of the branches and run.

I am also concerned with the 6 month term in the contract, it basically states that he has rights to the trees for a period of 6 months?

I understand weather delays etc. but this seems long.

Here is the copy of the actual contract sent by the logger (the buyer)

any comments please kind friends

thank you

[Puffergas]

Since you live near town you might want to check for logging rules and regulation.

[Puffergas]

Are you sure you want to cut down trees for a pasture? Maybe buy some land nearby. Just a thought.

[treeslayer2003]

what you are doing is not considered logging, it is considered land clearing. you need to first speak with planning and zoning. you don't want to get a logging permit if you are clearing, there may be legal consequences.
mow as to value, that depends on your local markets. other wise, a 50' tall pine is probably pulp wood and worth very little. now if you have 500 large trees, say 100' tall and 2' diameter or more, you might have some thing a logger wants to pay for. but get your permits in order so you don't get in trouble.

[Texas Ranger]

Get references, if he is willing to give them, if not willing move  him on down the road.  Seldom in this part of Texas is there any clean up, piling, on small tracts.  If you intend to sell the trees, get paid up front and know that he will not clean up.

As far as price, small tracts bring less money.

http://tfsweb.tamu.edu/timberpricetrends/

[lshobie]

That is a small chunk of land to clear -around here youd have to pay to have that cut and hauled off, just to haul equipment in and do the work is barely worth it.

[username]

Thank you all dear friends.

I have checked the permits etc. they are not required as we are not in the city per se, BUT I will double and triple check, thank you.

My family wants the trees cut, I only have so much say. I think they feel it is easier to use the tractor and also to plant grass, other trees such as fruit trees, etc.

I am going to need more time to process project. The logger in reference is working on a small job down the street, which he has completed. His machines are there, so he is wanting to start my job tomorrow itself. Or he says he has another job 20 miles or so away.

Of course, I do not know if he has another job or not, or if that is a pressure tactic.

What do I tell him? That we need some time to evaluate?

thank you kind friends

[username]

Here are some pics of the machines he has, from the job he is currently on in the neighborhood.

I do not know anything about these machines, maybe you do?

[Ron Scott]

If your County has a local Conservation District Forester, you might want to get some advice from them concerning your objectives and proposed project.

[TKehl]

Around here, we have to pay for land clearing.  Getting it for free is a good deal especially on a small tract.  There will be stumps, but pine rots pretty fast. 

I'd talk to the neighbor where he is currently operating.  Hard to get a better reference, especially if you might know them.

Even if you waited on the other guy, you're not talking about a lot of money over 3 acres.

[Ianab]

The logger isn't going to have his machines sitting around your land for 6 months. He will be out of there and on to the next job as soon as he reasonably can. It costs money to move that sort of machinery, so if he's "just down the road" he saves that expense (he drives the skidder and loader down the road). Once they are 20 miles away, it's a big cost to bring them back for a small job. Hence the "start tomorrow or not interested" thing.

You want the trees gone, and he's willing to take them away and leave the rubbish piled up... We know they are not particularly valuable so I don't think you are loosing anything there.

Turn down this deal and likely the trees will still be there next year, and you end up paying someone to do the land clearing.

[WDH]

You should talk to a Consulting Forester like Texas Ranger.  That equipment is not land clearing equipment, it is logging equipment. 

[nativewolf]

The logger isn't going to have his machines sitting around your land for 6 months. He will be out of there and on to the next job as soon as he reasonably can. It costs money to move that sort of machinery, so if he's "just down the road" he saves that expense (he drives the skidder and loader down the road). Once they are 20 miles away, it's a big cost to bring them back for a small job. Hence the "start tomorrow or not interested" thing.

You want the trees gone, and he's willing to take them away and leave the rubbish piled up... We know they are not particularly valuable so I don't think you are loosing anything there.

Turn down this deal and likely the trees will still be there next year, and you end up paying someone to do the land clearing.

I'd second this.  If what you really want is pasture the first thing to do is start removing as much of the woody material as possible.  So, let him log it for free.  Then be prepared to pay $1000/acre to have someone come in and mulch everything else, including the stumps.  That will make a great base for a pasture.  You want to do this in a coreographed process though.  You don't want the land sitting around with exposed soil (perfect for weed seeds and subject to extreme runoff).  So harvest, get it mulched the next week (should take someone that is serious only a few days or if they only have a skid steer than maybe a whole week -7 day week).  Then have it seeded with a fast growing cover crop that you can til back in prior to your optimal pasture grass establishment time.  I have no idea what's the best time to establish a pasture in TX nor could I recommend grasses.   Definitely talk to the local soil water/ ag extension folk.  They'll know.

I am doing that very process on 20 acres starting the last week of June.  Hope to have it seeded by August 1st. 

[snowkraft]

What seems logical to me is to get it done with the logger who you are now communicating with, as it may be hard to find someone else who would even take the project. It would be great as part of the project that the logger had to eliminate all slash piles, or had at least to keep them under a certain number of feet so that it is easier for a person with a forestry tiller to come in and work. Forestry Tiller is probably the best way to ready you land for farming- it mulches to a depth of 12 inches, so most of the stump will be removed and tree debirs will be mixed into soil for enhancement. 

I would not be so concerned about the price of the logging contract, but more so the finished product for farming- the cost you'll incur will be for forestry tilling, AFTER the logging takes place, to ready your land for farming. Maybe the logger knows someone who can come in after him and prep the land for farming. That could possibly save you money. Maybe you could receive a credit for your logs with the person doing the tilling- that could happen if the logger finds a friend to do your tilling?? Then you wouldn't have to worry about payment from the logger. Just a thought.

Video of forestry tiller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8J0X09yfFQ

[nativewolf]

Snowkraft I think you'll find the forest tilling costs about 3-4 x that for just mulching.  Even with a 300hp tractor those things only do 2 acres a day and tooth wear is high.  The same size forest mulcher would be wrapping up after a day on his site (I think).  Also the forest tiller heads costs 2x what a forest mulching head costs, they are really multi-use and used by construction guys to regrade roads, lime stabilize fracking pads or warehouse pad sites, etc.  So they have some very high value alternative uses other than simply grinding tree stumps.  A good forest mulcher with a FAE head (or equivalent) can get it ready for pasture without tilling. 

[TKehl]

When you say pasture, are you grazing animals there?

[mike_belben]

Tell him yes and be thankful for whatever he does.