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Belsaw Circle saw power

Started by Lambee10, February 09, 2015, 01:07:59 PM

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Lambee10

Hi all
Been a while since I posted anything but I have a question.  My Belsaw is PTO driven off my tractor.  Problem is when I go through my whack of logs on my deck I need to unhook the tractor to be able to fork some more on it.  I have been thinking of finding another tractor to use as a power unit to free up loader or even an engine. 
However, a guy that pulls apart industrial plants and demos them said he had a lot of electric motors and asked if I considered running the mill off electric.
so First question- what size motor would I need to produce the equivalent torque and HP needed to run my saw at 540 RPM's?? ???
Then what other things should I think about?  I don't know what I don't know.....
All animals like me...at feeding time.

M-14 Belsaw and the toys to go with it.

SPD748

Do you have 3 phase power available at your mill site? An electric motor big enough to pull a circle blade will surely be 3 phase.

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

sealark37

You don't say what your tractor's HP is, but an electric motor can usually replace twice it's HP in an internal combustion engine.  If you do have three-phase power, you should take a serious look at converting to electric.  You will have to reduce the motor's RPM to obtain the proper saw speed, but the gains in noise, fuel cost, and aggravation should more than balance.  I have seen a #2 Frick that was powered very well by a 30 HP electric.   Regards, Clark

Ron Wenrich

When we put in the new mill, we converted over to electric.  Electric motors do a better job of maintaining the RPM.  But, when we found out how much the electric company was going to charge to hook up, and that there was a monthly charge whether we ran or not, we pushed the pencil.  It was cheaper to run a gen set. 

The gen set gave us the option of running on electric, but with lower costs.  We were commercial, so we used a lot of diesel and we made a lot of product.  Our gen set was a good sized one, and it ran the mill, edgers, chipper, controls and all the decks.  We didn't have enough juice to run the debarker with electric.

Electric is a nice option, but be aware of the costs.  I doubt I would go any smaller than 50 hp on that Belsaw. I would probably go bigger.  I've seen mills run 35 hp and had to skip every other tooth in order to have enough power.  We ran 125 hp on our headrig and ran a 52" saw.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Lambee, electric is the cats pooper if you can get three phase run in cheap which is doubtfull. Many times there is a charge if you use it or not. What would probably be more practical is to find a large diesel tractor with poor rubber you could leave on the mill. I have seen old Cat dozers that have a strong engine that need a bottom that could be had cheap as they were old and not worth the track rebuild. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Southside

An alternative is to use a "phase converter" to turn single phase "house hold 240V" electric into 3 phase 277V or 480V.  You need a lower HP rating using an electric motor than a diesel or gas motor to perform the same work.   
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

coalsmok

I would start looking for a older big tractor. Many of these no longer have the hydraulic capacitys to run newer equipment or have parts avalibility issues on oem parts that can drop the price on them a lot.
I am currently looking for a small tractor to keep around the house and could get 50+hp older tractor cheaper or same money.

so il logger

Quote from: coalsmok on February 09, 2015, 11:14:54 PM
I would start looking for a older big tractor. Many of these no longer have the hydraulic capacitys to run newer equipment or have parts avalibility issues on oem parts that can drop the price on them a lot.
I am currently looking for a small tractor to keep around the house and could get 50+hp older tractor cheaper or same money.

I agree with this to the point that it may save money on the initial purchase. But why buy something that is priced low because of parts availability? Could come back to haunt a fellow when the engine breaks down and have already spent time and money to fabricate the mill for the engine. If it were me I would look seriously at a 4 bt or 6 bt cummins power unit. Parts are readily available but chances are you wouldnt have many problems with it. 3 phase would be ideal but costly.. Good luck

ozarkgem

353 or 2-72 detroit would be screaming machines but make a good power plant. Easier to find with a clutch setup already on them . Cummins or Jd engines would be better but usually more expensive. There is a guy by Kansas City that sells Kubota engines for around 1300.00. About 50 HP. Would be very fuel efficient.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

bandmiller2

Lambee, you know what power you are using now if its plenty (rarely) just duplicate it, or better go up. If you go to power units you will have rotation problems. Its hard to beat a large old diesel tractor for a portable power unit. Parts for old tractors are not a problem many aftermarket suppliers and used dealers. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

bandmiller2

Of course the cheapest fix is to extend your dead deck so you can load many days cutting then position your tractor to the shaft. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Lambee10

Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 09, 2015, 08:54:25 PM
Lambee, electric is the cats pooper if you can get three phase run in cheap which is doubtfull. Many times there is a charge if you use it or not. What would probably be more practical is to find a large diesel tractor with poor rubber you could leave on the mill. I have seen old Cat dozers that have a strong engine that need a bottom that could be had cheap as they were old and not worth the track rebuild. Frank C.

Well I think you all are coming back around to where I was originally.  Looking for a tractor I could use as a power plant.  No, I don't have 3 phase to the shop (right near the mill) so from what I am learning that may be a killer for that.

Now, a farmer that I get my hay from has an Allis Chalmers combine Diesel engine that he said I could get from him.  The combine burned but the engine was good so he pulled it out.   But is does not have a tranny.  I believe there is a crowd of pulleys on the end that are different sizes that run different things in the combine.  I think that may be over my head also but am still looking at that.

But will keep looking for a Tractor I can give a good home to use for power.
All animals like me...at feeding time.

M-14 Belsaw and the toys to go with it.

Lambee10

Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 10, 2015, 08:02:48 AM
Of course the cheapest fix is to extend your dead deck so you can load many days cutting then position your tractor to the shaft. Frank C.

I thought of this earlier.  However, i had a guy want some slabs to make benches out of for his hunting camp and I needed the dang forks to pick them up after they were cut off!  They fell from the blade and my son went to lift it and started laughing. :D
All animals like me...at feeding time.

M-14 Belsaw and the toys to go with it.

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: Lambee10 on February 10, 2015, 12:30:30 PM
Quote from: bandmiller2 on February 10, 2015, 08:02:48 AM
Of course the cheapest fix is to extend your dead deck so you can load many days cutting then position your tractor to the shaft. Frank C.

I thought of this earlier.  However, i had a guy want some slabs to make benches out of for his hunting camp and I needed the dang forks to pick them up after they were cut off!  They fell from the blade and my son went to lift it and started laughing. :D

Rollers would help with that.

I would look for something like a Farmall M or Supper M,  I think they are in the 40-50 hp range and can be bought in good running condition for $1500 some even with a loader for that price.  Parts are pretty easy to find for them as well.

Southside

Quote from: ozarkgem on February 10, 2015, 06:49:49 AM
353 or 2-72 detroit would be screaming machines but make a good power plant. Easier to find with a clutch setup already on them . Cummins or Jd engines would be better but usually more expensive. There is a guy by Kansas City that sells Kubota engines for around 1300.00. About 50 HP. Would be very fuel efficient.

Any more info on who sells those power units?
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

loggah

First off a power unit will be turning the wrong direction for a PTO driven Belsaw. I run my Belsaw with a 60 H.P. Massey Ferguson tractor.If i were you i would buy an older Massey tractor like mine,it has a perkins 4.203 diesel engine,its good on fuel and Perkins engine parts are readily available.These tractors are pretty easy to find ,and if you get one with a loader you can use it to load the brow if your other tractor breaks down. Don
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

ozarkgem

Quote from: Southside logger on February 10, 2015, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: ozarkgem on February 10, 2015, 06:49:49 AM
353 or 2-72 detroit would be screaming machines but make a good power plant. Easier to find with a clutch setup already on them . Cummins or Jd engines would be better but usually more expensive. There is a guy by Kansas City that sells Kubota engines for around 1300.00. About 50 HP. Would be very fuel efficient.

Any more info on who sells those power units?
Do a CL search for KC . he also sells them on ebay. Look for Diesel engines. Loggah is right about the direction. Some Detroits turn the right way. Usually out of boats.
There are guys that run Belsaws off of a power unit.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

bandmiller2

Ozark, those 353 or 371/ 471's were commonly used on road pavers. Dependibility was paramount so they would be replaced often. They are handy power, all self contained with a clutch. But as brother Loggah says they will turn the wrong way for a tractor driven Belsaw. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

hunz

Quote from: so il logger on February 10, 2015, 12:26:36 AM
Quote from: coalsmok on February 09, 2015, 11:14:54 PM
I would start looking for a older big tractor. Many of these no longer have the hydraulic capacitys to run newer equipment or have parts avalibility issues on oem parts that can drop the price on them a lot.
I am currently looking for a small tractor to keep around the house and could get 50+hp older tractor cheaper or same money.

I agree with this to the point that it may save money on the initial purchase. But why buy something that is priced low because of parts availability? Could come back to haunt a fellow when the engine breaks down and have already spent time and money to fabricate the mill for the engine. If it were me I would look seriously at a 4 bt or 6 bt cummins power unit. Parts are readily available but chances are you wouldnt have many problems with it. 3 phase would be ideal but costly.. Good luck


A 6bt cummins out of an old dodge truck can be had for $1500-$2000. With a little bit of welding, a guy could mount it to a frame, and hey, steal the radiator and intercooler off the truck too. Everything on a 6bt or 4bt is totally mmechanical, no electronics. My dad has them on a few well pumps in FL that are PTO driven pulling 1000gpm. That Belsaw would really scream them. I bet for $3000-$3500 you would be turn key with a 10,000 hour power plant. If you can't tell I LOVE a 12v Cummins engine, even though I now drive a Ford diesel.

I'm sure some Detroit's are OK, but I had 2 in a 6.5 turbo diesel pickup, I can't even begin to tell you how terrible those engines were, no power, OK economy, overheated, cracked heads....my dad had one on another well pumpmin FL when a duetz ran out of oil and locked up. It was a temp he borrowed off another farmer and he mentioned repeatedly how it was terrible, it was a late 60's model engine. I have seen so many 12 valves on craigslist already pulled from trucks, that it almost boggles my mind. Its because the engines outlast the trucks! Anyhow my $0.02
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



2006 Woodmizer LT40D51RA, Husqvarna 372xp, Takeuchi TL140

Ron Wenrich

Can't you reverse the direction on those power units?  We had a 671 that was set up to run a left handed mill.   And I've run Detroits on right handed mills. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SPD748

All Detroit Diesel 2 stroke diesel engines can be set up to run in either direction.

-lee
Frick 0 Handset - A continuing project dedicated to my Dad.

410 Deere, 240 Massey... I really need a rough terrain forklift :)

Sawing Since 1-19-2013 @ 3:30 pm
Serving Since 2002
"Some police officers give tickets, some gave all."

crash

My Granddad reversed a 671 to power the left handed Garr Scott if I remember right it took a different set of gears up front to turn the cam the right way? Not sure about the starter. A fellow I know ran a Bellsaw with an old International inline six he just put a twist in the belts to get the correct rotation at the mandrel. .... I'm no expert but that doesn't seem like the best idea. I think finding an old tractor to power it is a good idea..... Fast cheap and easy.  Almost all the old tractors have plenty of aftermarket parts available, are easy to work on,  the old diesel tractors are generally easy on fuel.

beenthere

Quotehe just put a twist in the belts to get the correct rotation at the mandrel. .... I'm no expert but that doesn't seem like the best idea.

Back in the day, we ran a lot of farm equipment with a twist in the belt. No harm in doing that, and may think it is better (less flopping around ?? ) than running a straight belt with no twist.

Silage blower, one example of such equipment.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

whitepine2

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 11, 2015, 10:21:40 AM
Can't you reverse the direction on those power units?  We had a 671 that was set up to run a left handed mill.   And I've run Detroits on right handed mills.

   If I'm not mistaken most of the buses ran 4-6 71's and were
left hand turners as they were cross mounted units check this out.
There was a saw mill near here that had one from a bus left hand
turner was running a left handed mill with it.

crash

Quote from: beenthere on February 11, 2015, 01:22:39 PM
Quotehe just put a twist in the belts to get the correct rotation at the mandrel. .... I'm no expert but that doesn't seem like the best idea.

Back in the day, we ran a lot of farm equipment with a twist in the belt. No harm in doing that, and may think it is better (less flopping around ?? ) than running a straight belt with no twist.

Silage blower, one example of such equipment.
This guy twisted his V belts, seems like it would be hard on them but I don't know.  Twisting flat belts is/was common and I believe harmless.

jimparamedic

Detroit engines can be set up to run in reverse. 

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: crash on February 11, 2015, 06:38:52 PM
Quote from: beenthere on February 11, 2015, 01:22:39 PM
Quotehe just put a twist in the belts to get the correct rotation at the mandrel. .... I'm no expert but that doesn't seem like the best idea.

Back in the day, we ran a lot of farm equipment with a twist in the belt. No harm in doing that, and may think it is better (less flopping around ?? ) than running a straight belt with no twist.

Silage blower, one example of such equipment.
This guy twisted his V belts, seems like it would be hard on them but I don't know.  Twisting flat belts is/was common and I believe harmless.

I have a twisted v belt on my lathe (it is only one hp so hard to compare it to a sawmill) for the first 30 seconds or so rubber was flying everywhere,  once the corners got worn off it appears to no longer wear.  It was probably 5 years ago that I set it up and it doesn't look and worse now than it did after the first minute of running it.  At one time I put a piece of aluminum between the halfs of the belt where it rubbed but since it has a variable pulley on it it got in the way so I removed it.

bandmiller2

My old ford baler uses a twisted "V" belt to drive the pickup. The more distance between the pulleys the better if your running a "V" twisted. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Joe Lallande

When I set my Belsaw up and changed it from a flat belt to pulleys and V belts, I had to use a cross shaft to achieve the correct rotation. I found the cross shaft and large pulley from a local sawmill. I was then able to use the cross shaft for my blower power. I used a standard tractor PTO drive shaft and was able to find the splined ends from our local farm supply store.  Stay away from automotive drive shafts unless you have a junk yard close to you. Check out my gallery.

beenthere

QuoteCheck out my gallery.

Pls. put the pic you want us to see in your post, then you can point out the feature you want us to see. tks.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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