Question regarding use of rough sawn lumber for home construction

[brdmkr]

I talked with DanG sometime back about just what rough-sawn lumber could be used in constructing a home with regards to building codes.  It was my undestanding that flooring and paneling could be used without a problem, but that structural material, such as framing, would not pass code unless the lumber was inspected.   Has anyone cut their own lumber for a their house?  Assuming the answer is yes :, what was involved with passing the building inspector?   Did you have to have your framing lumber inspected?  If so, who inspects lumber for private individuals?

I know I could likely contact my building inspector about this, but if I could go in with a little information :P, I think I may be able to get the OK to use a little more of my own stuff and a little less from the HD.  As I understand it, the building inspector has some leeway in matters such as this.

Forgive me if I am asking dumb quesyions, and thanks for your help.

[DanG]

Hi Mike.  I went directly to the source for my info...the Florida Building Code online.  I read up on this and several other points before talking to the inspector.  When I met with them, the inspectors were asking me questions, because they hadn't yet seen the new revision of the code. :D :D

The codes are different from state to state, and county to county, so you need to educate yourself for your specific location.  I recommend reading some of the Georgia code, then talking to the County folks to see what they have added.  They can tell that you've studied up, and that will go a long way toward developing a rapport with them.

Before I found the code online, I talked with several contractors and none of them could/would answer my questions.  All they could talk about was what a bunch of jerks the inspectors are. :  I didn't find that to be the case.  When I met with them, I explained that I'd never built a house before.  They all said, "Don't worry. We'll get you through it."

The Florida code is very explicit in saying that "structural" materials must not only be graded and inspected, but must come from facilities that are inspected by certain agencies, and those agencies are listed in the code book.

[beenthere]

I'd follow DanG's suggestion, and only add reading up a bit about what the construction grades are, and be able to let the inspector know that you have some knowledge about what makes a No 2 & btr grade, and what you plan to not allow in your 'house' construction lumber. Also add some info about what constitutes cross grain, and localized steep grain that causes construction lumber to fail in tension, etc.  Being able to talk the talk will give the inspector (who probably doesn't know the grades either, but is familiar with the terminology) some confidence that you will be okay with your material.

[brdmkr]

DanG's idea is a good one for Florida.  Georgia's codes don't seem to be online.  I hope Georgia's codes aren't as strict.  I can buy the book for 80.00+, but I don't want to go that route unless I absolutely have to.  I don't mind talking to the inspector to get the info, but I'd like to be able to give him some info (much like suggested by beenthere). 

[Dan_Shade]

what did you end up doing to get the wood inspected DanG?

[beenthere]

brdmkr
Here is a link to Chapter 6 of the Wood Handbook (Tom's resource), that gives a general description of the visual grading procedure. Having some idea about these things should bode well with an inspector, if he is reasonable. A stop in at the SPIB (Southern Pine Inspection Bureau) in Pensacola, FL might also provide you with some materials to bone up on some of the terminology, if it's within spittin distance of you or your travels.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch06.pdf

Update, that Chpt. 6 is now Chpt 7 in the newest Wood Handbook (edit 3/2011).

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_07.pdf

[DanG]

Nut'n, Dan. :D :D  We still haven't started construction. :-\  I think I will opt to just buy the framing material.  I'm workin' on a way to get it for wholesale from one of the large mills in the area.  What's really sticking in my craw is the siding.  The Fla code considers it structural.  I can use that flimsey vinyl crap, but not 1x12 cypress off my mill! >:(

[submarinesailor]

The timeliness of this tread is outstanding.  This past week end we started cutting the 2X lumber for my daughter house in New Mexico.  Got just short of 500 bf cut – had a pitch problem early on Sunday that drove us nuts.  Until I remember some of you stating "use lots of water when cutting SYP".  It worked.

But my questions to you is, do any of you know if New Mexico requires graded and stamped lumber?  And if they do, can I get it graded and stamped here, take it there and use it?  The location is wayout in the outer reaches of Taos county, so how much can I get away with?  Start building without any permits?????? ??? : ??? : ??? : ???

Bruce/subsailor

[brdmkr]

What's really sticking in my craw is the siding. The Fla code considers it structural. I can use that flimsey vinyl crap, but not 1x12 cypress off my mill! >:(

As I said earlier, I sure hope GA code is more reasonable!

[DanG]

Let's hope so, Mike.  Fla has one of the toughest codes in the country, so, chances are you will have an easier time.  You'll still have trouble if you don't get on the good side of the inspectors and stay there. ;)

Bruce, from what I could learn in a quick search, it looks like New Mexico has adopted the 2003 International Code, with certain revisions.  All the revisions I could find were on commercial buildings, but that doesn't mean there are not revisions on residential, just that I didn't find any.  I would sure check it out thoroughly before I got too deep.  It would be a real bummer to get started, then have to tear it down, plus paying a big fine.  You'd also be on the bad side of the inspectors, once you tried to put one over on them.

[ARKANSAWYER]

 Made my own grade stamp.  Called the Southern Pine Inspection Bureau to see about getting where I can grade my lumber.  They said that people can not be graders but only mills were issued a grade stamp and had personal trained to grade and stamp.  I said "OK, I own a mill and wish to get ARKANSAWYER Sawmill in the program."  SPIB said that the mill had to have been in operation for more then 3 years.  No problem says I for I have been in business for 4 years.  They decided that I was unworthy of their blessings and soon blew me off.  Said they only sold books to subscribers  but if I wanted to pay the cost they could have a Grader come grade my lumber for a very nice fee.  I did not understand this as a person can not have a stamp?  ???  Mills are issued stamps but people can not have one.
 The purpose of the stamp is to let some one know that the board was looked at and it was within specs of the grade for which it is stamped.   Also the stamp will let you know what kind of wood and who sawed and graded it.  My stamp does just that.  I follow the rules of the American Lumber Standard requirements and the SPIB rules that govern SYP which is what I saw.  If a board is missed stamped and fails the only libility is to replace the board.  The SPIB and mill have no responsibility other then they allow themselves a 5% error margin and thus you just bite the bullet.   The rules were made back in the '60's so every one in the lumber trades was a talking the same on what a 2x4 was and how good it was.
  Most of the area where I live does not have any codes so there is no problem.  But in areas where they need the stamp I just stamp the lumber.  90% of the time no one ever looks at the lumber and most building inspectors have no clue what the grades are any way.  They just know that you need a 2x what ever to span so many feet.  They rely on blue prints by architects and just see that you nailed the right size board in the right place.
 Read the codes in your area and often there are loop holes.  I know there was a deal in NY where they changed the law and if you saw it and use it in your house it is OK.  Course they will change the law back if they start losing money.  The SPIB will send out a Bureau Quality Supervisor who will mark and tally the lumber and give a certificate.

Small SawMillers United

[leweee]

 8) 8) 8) Arky you the man  8) 8) 8)

In this neck of the woods we go to the lumber store & sort through the piles picking out the boards with stamps on em.....takem & seed the pile. ;D

Hard part is maken your stuff look as bad as there stuff :

[Rod]

I'd ask the locol inspector and see the he says,if he says OK,then start building.

[Tobacco Plug]

Here in NC you can build a house out of non-grade-marked lumber as long as the logs belonged to the homeowner and the log owner (or a member of his immediate family) lives in the house for at least one year.  I think it was the Farm Bureau, who a few years ago, spent a lot of time a few years ago trying to get unform rulings from each state, as there were many requests from small sawmill owners for this.  Don't know how successful they were.  Check with your county inspector and hope that he isn't spoiled by the power of his position! ;)

[brdmkr]

Right now, I am thinking I might as well just forget using my own wood for framing.  I suppose I had just better hope that I can get away with flooring and siding.  I'll still discuss this with the inspector, but I'll bet rough sawn for framing will be out of the question. 

[rvrdivr]

Arky very well said! ;) I think some people don't realize there is always a way to get around things.
I hate to say it but the codes and inspectors are there for a reason, and I will say from personal experience, there are a lot of stupid people out there building homes. I have met with inspectors who don't have a clue and pretend to know, and builders that know and cut coners to make more $. What ever the call, the inspector will always try to cover thier but.
My sugestion is, that I would give the code inspector as much info I could, Patronize him, making him feel important. If they say no, go around them and find a way. There's always a way. ;)

[etat]

there are areas all around me that have codes and require inspectors.  However the county that I live has no codes and no inspectors.  NONE.  I built my house from the ground up, foundation to rooftop, did all the wire and all the plumbing too.  When I got ready for electricity they just came out and hooked it up.  Didn't even come inside and look at the switchbox.  Now let me say I'm proud to say I did a good job on this house, and built it to where I think even 'if' someone was inspecting it there wouldn't be a problem.  But the fact is, here where that I live, they just don't care............... ;D ;D ;D

[Tobacco Plug]

Hey Brdmkr,
Don't give up on asking your local inspector.  Ask him to check it out for you.  After all, it is his job to know the code.  One thing I forgot to mention in the requirements here in NC is that the lumber must be dried in a dry place for a minimum of 90 days to a moisture content of not less than 20%.  The requirement that the builder or a member of his family llive in the house keeps the speculators from cutting corners.  If you are sawing your own lumber, you can control the quality and have better wood than that from Lowe's or Home Depot!

[ely]

i am doing exactly like cktate. it is better to not live where you have to jump through hoops.

[Don P]

If you do read up and understand grading, many inspectors will allow you to use your wood under the "alternative materials" clause in the code.

Here's an excerpt from an E-mail from our state dept of inspections, we've been trying to get something along the lines of NY and NH. We have a grader training class coming up in our area in Oct. for small sawmills and the regional inspectors.

TPI could also discuss their services for grading lumber and maybe regionally there could be some sort of cooperative type grading system established that building officials got to see the stamp marks while some building officials might be ok after such as class to let Don and others be approved under our USBC modification and alternate materials sections. Building officials and mill operators might find a reasonable and less costly inspections system by entities such as TPI. 

Timber Products offers grader training at their facility in Conyers, GA several times per year. They and SPIB also have staff in GA that can grade your structural lumber for a fee. Va does license their builders, stamping of my own lumber with a homemade stamp would likely lead to revocation of my license. I'm hoping to work within the system to change it.

[brdmkr]

I don't mind doing my homework regarding understanding lumber grading at least well enough to know if I have good wood or junk.  In all honesty, it wouldn't be too hard to beat what is available in HD.  I'd have to hand pick my studs to live with their lumber.  I hope to find the international code online (No luck with that yet.  Does anyone know of a web site).  I'll study the code regarding flooring, siding, and framing lumber.  I'll also read the wood handbook put out by FPL (link above).  Once I feel like I understand what makes good lumber, I'll get up with the inspector for a sit-down talk.  Any advice that has worked for any of you is appreciated.

[Don P]

Well, there's another pet peeve of mine. Although the code is the law of the land, it is copyrighted by the ICC, a for profit group. So basically, the text of the law cannot be accessed unless you pay for it  .
I better go to bed, I feel my temperature rising  :D.

[brdmkr]

Well, there's another pet peeve of mine. Although the code is the law of the land, it is copyrighted by the ICC, a for profit group. So basically, the text of the law cannot be accessed unless you pay for it .

Well, AIN'T that a fine how-do-you-do.  That ought to be illegal.

[Don P]

There are folks working that from the Henry David Thoreau school of doing things, my hat's off to 'em and I hope they win  ;D. I don't know if you remember the story of Emerson looking into Thoreau's cell after a round of civil disobedience and saying "What are you doing in there?" Thoreau looks out though the bars and says "What are YOU doing out there"  :D

We can rant about the government till the cows come home (and I'll be right there in the thick of it  : :D) To stay on track for just basic grading info though (bottom line is we want to be making safe lumber, then we can work on the government) I will say my experiences with most inspectors has been just as DanG stated, they are generally good folks, trying to help you through the construction process while satisfying the laws...oftentimes they agree with some portions of laws they have to uphold no more than us. The grading agencies have really gone out of their way to help educate me when I approached them the right way. If you noticed on that flyer I posted...our inspectors and DHCD are footing the bill for our sawyers and carpenters to get training  .

The NeLma website has the "National Grade Rule for Softwood Lumber" posted.
http://www.nelma.org/udp.php?id=61
I think you need to read section 5 and 8 if memory serves...computers running slow this morning.
That is the ALSC "grandaddy" rule all the other graderules come from. You will not go wrong adhering to it. You might miss the distinction between some of the many subgrades of some species...like SYP has, call your #2 dense just #2 and keep it simple.

There's also alot of good info at this site, I think Beenthere posted it previously  ???; The "online training" tab has good info and at the bottom of that page is a link to their quick pocket rules. I imagine the syp one would be of most use to you.
http://www.gradingconsultinggroup.com/

I do have another quick reference card I have permission to and can scan in and post if it would be helpful.

[DanG]

Thanks for the links, Don! 8)

I really appreciate the fact that you are actively pursuing change, rather than sitting back and whining like most folks.  I wish I were well enough informed to make the same challenges here in Florida, but I'm afraid I would be laughed out of the place.  Meanwhile, I'm reading everything you post about your adventures in the halls of Government, and hoping you can establish a precedent in Virginia that other states might take a look at.  Thanks for walking point!

[DonE911]

Hey Arkansawyer

Ever have anyone question your stamp? Inspector or whomever.

[brdmkr]

Don

Thanks for those sites.  They are really helpful.   I don't mean to imply that I expect trouble from the inspector.  The fact is, I don't know him and haven't really asked others their opinion.   I am sure he will be reasonable and a decent fellow (since if he was trouble I would have heard that, bad experiences travel fast).   I just know that what I want to do may be pushing the envelope.  As DanG said earlier, I likely will purchase wood for framing.   However, if I can gather enough knowledge to ensure my own stuff is of good quality and can convince the inspector of that, all the better.  I am not in a hurry and won't begin building for some time, so I have time to learn :P.

I suppose my most pressing concern is knowing what pushes the envelope (framing lumber) and what is generally acceptable (I am hoping that at least flooring, siding, and paneling fit into this category).   It is just a bit frustrating that this information does not appear to be online.  I suppose that I could call the inspector to inquire about these items and then meet with him later to discuss framing materials.

[Buzz-sawyer]

I just wanted to comment
Wood like xotton wood, sycamore, elm ash...are all common up here, there is NO SYP.
All these woods are vastly superior to white pine in load bearing properties and durability.
Yet in many places they arent even considered for framming material....this is not an intelligent or practacle approach.
So much is turned into pallets and blocking that could build homes 2x as strong!!

[Don P]

Buzz,
We're in the same boat here, I hate to see good wood go into pallets and Lowes selling junk. One man I was talking to the other day told me that the red maple isn't even worth pulling out of the woods right now between the sawmill prices and fuel cost, its DanG strong wood!

It's been a rainy morning so I've been making a set of span tables for poplar at our design loads. Won't work in other areas with other snow loads etc. but hopefully will show that it can and should be done. I've been e-mailing the top folks in the field and as far as I can find out this has never been done, engineering in nontypical framing species has been done on a case by case basis...we gotta do sumthin bout that. I'll send the links to the state folks, the TP engineer and a few Docs. Hoping to get approval to hand some info out at the class on our local woods. Approval to use them is one thing, you need the allowable loadings and spans in an easily understood format to accompany it. Got a little more cyphering to do, I'll ask you all to take a gander when its up and see if it makes sense.

brdmkr;
I understand your frustration about the info. The library is one place, and don't forget interlibrary loan. When you do have your sit down with the inspector, he will probably be one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet, ours are. Our conversations usually end up with them reaching for and flipping through well worn books at a rapid and knowing pace and xeroxing info for me to take home and study, they get top notch training and are there to help.

The ICC grading requirement only applies to structural elements, generally framing and sheathing, state or local add on's could ask for more I guess, haven't run into that personally. What the code is trying to ensure is a frame and skin that will bear all anticipated imposed loads without failing, after that "decorating" the structure is much less stringently regulated. Its one of those things that's easy to see both sides of.

I think learning all this stuff is good whether you directly use it or not, it makes me understand why we do things the way we do. The more you know the more critically you can look at a situation...I've caught architects and engineers oopses and been able to quietly and confidently correct them. We have a saying "Good carpenter would fix that and never say a thing"  ;D. It can also make you overanalyze a dog house  :D.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Don
you need the allowable loadings and spans in an easily understood format to accompany it

I have tables like that if you would like I can scan them and upload?

[brdmkr]

I look at all of this as one big adventure.  I really enjoy jumping into something that I know nothing about and then learning as much as I can.  I think it helps me be more well rounded.  No wait, the dinner table does that :D

I can't believe that I didn't think about the library.  Believe it or not, I read a great deal, but I haven't checked out a book from the library in years.  I think I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of Georgia's buildling codes.   If I can ensure that I can use my own flooring, paneling, and siding I'll be plenty happy.  I'll then focus on framing lumber.

[Don P]

Readin and feedin makes a body well rounded  ;D

Buzz, post away  8)

I just uploaded this mornings efforts, have a look,
http://www.ls.net/~windyhill/Calcs/poplarspans.htm

[Larry]

I've been e-mailing the top folks in the field and as far as I can find out this has never been done, engineering in nontypical framing species has been done on a case by case basis...we gotta do sumthin bout that. I'll send the links to the state folks, the TP engineer and a few Docs. Hoping to get approval to hand some info out at the class on our local woods. Approval to use them is one thing, you need the allowable loadings and spans in an easily understood format to accompany it. Got a little more cyphering to do, I'll ask you all to take a gander when its up and see if it makes sense.

Don, looks good to me...thanks for sharing.  I would imagine that took a lot of work. 8) 8)   

I do have couple of questions.  Where did you get your E values and even broke down by grade?  Buzz, do you have span tables for stuff like cottonwood?  I get the E value for cottonwood than use a softwood span table of a species with the same E.  Not for sure if it is valid or not, but so far the cows don't appear worried. :D

[Frank_Pender]

Well, well, persistance is paying off for some of us here in Oregon.  There is a blue ribbon group of us folks gathering at the end of August/first of September to look into the idea of establishing a program where small independent sawmillers can take economically designed classes and deal with the issue of getting their lumber graded.   Another thought is that of acquiring a grader that have them become a circuit rider here in the Willamette Valley.   I will my bestest to keep everyone informed of our progress and direction of action.

   As I have said before the big boys association check folks want around $375 an hour plus mileage for grading. 

[Don P]

 8) 8)
Good work Frank, do keep us posted on your progress. Its good for us to keep telling of successes and failures, it'll hopefully help us all get something going. Bureacracy doesn't have a habit of lightening up on its own  :.

Larry, I used the numbers from the National Design Specification for Wood Construction available from the AF&PA kinda spendy unless you want ALOT of info on wood and timber, joint formulas...
It is the reference the code uses for that type of info.
The table wasn't to bad to make, next one should only take an hour or 2. Dad's old codebook had a span table made up of Fb/E numbers so if you apply the NDS #'s it can spit out that table pretty quick. It was about useless to the average carpenter, I wanted something easier to use. I did go back and work the math on several spans just to double check, it seemed fine.  I'll let some pro's give the nod before I go whole hog. Hoping Buzz has something readymade that would be waaaay cool.

If any of you need design values, formulas or whatever that might be in the NDS books just shout.

Cottonwood;
SS-Fb=875,E=1.2,Fv=125,Fc(perp)=320...Fv(shear) &Fc(crushing perpendicular to grain) remain the same throughout the grades.
#1-Fb=625,E=1.2
#2-Fb=625, E=1.1
#3-Fb=350, E=1
Stud-Fb=475, E=1
Construction-Fb=700, E=1
Standard-Fb=400,E=.9
Utility-Fb=175, E=.9

Quick lesson to those going, What???
A joist or rafter can fail in one of 3 ways (typically)
1..in bending, usually a long span with a heavy load will snap somewhere around midpoint starting with the extrem outermost bottom fibers being torn apart. Extreme(outermost)Fiberstress in Bending...Fb. The allowable Fb number tells you how much load is allowed per square inch on this extreme fiber.

2..in shear, usually this failure happens in a short, very heavily loaded timber. Bend a deck of cards and watch the "fibers" slide past one another. In a joist that would be a shear failure, your one deep beam just became 2 or more wimpy not so deep beams. Fv gives allowable shear load per square inch.

3..excessive deflection, this one isn't really a failure, its telling you how much the timber will bend or bounce under load. E, or Modulus of Elasticity tells how "springy" a type of wood is. More often than not this is the controlling calculation in specifying a joist or rafter. The thing often isn't in danger of breaking, but it sure looks and feels bad. Think bouncy farmhouse floor or swayback ridge.

I added the compression perpendicular to grain because when you header or put a post under a girder you don't want to crush that beam on the post top. That number tells how much load each square inch of the beam end can support safely without crushing...calculate the load, divide by the allowable value and it gives the number of square inches the post top needs to be.

NDS also gives Ft, tension parallell to grain, like a truss bottom chord, and Fc parallel to grain (log on log for one) if anyone needs those #'s.

[Chris Burchfield]

And this is what the book says'

2003 Edition International Building Code, Section 2303.1.1 Lumber. Lumber used for load-supporting purposes, including end-jointed or edge-gluded lumber, machine stress-rated or machinge evaluated lumber, shall be identified by the grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20 or equivalent. Grading practices and identification shall comply with rules published by an agency approved in accordance with the procedures of DOC PS 20 or equivalent procedures. In lieu of a grade mark on the material, a certificate of inspection as to species and grade issued by a lumber-grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section is permitted to be accepted for precut, remanufactured or rough-sawn lumber, and for sizes larger than 3 inches nominal thickness.

"DOC PS 20" is a "Voluntary Product Standard," when I looked it up on Google. 656 pages of the IBC is more than I care to relate here and contend with Copy Right Standards. Durable Wood is referenced in conjunction with treated wood, like the cap plate around the slab or for use above a crawl space on a conventional foundation but, "durable wood" is not defined. The Southern Building Code would allow Red Wood or Bois De Arc (?) in lieu of treated.

Section 2304.10 Heavy timber construction.Columns, Floor framing Roof framing are addressed with words like "properly designed steel or iron caps, wth pintles and base plates, yada yada yada. Sorry folks but I'm not an Engineer, who's position I truly respect. Anything specific, I'll be glad to try and look it up.

[brdmkr]

Chris,

Thanks for the paragraph.  If I read it correctly, it seems that using your own rough sawn wood would be acceptable if you paid someone to grade it.  I was also glad to see that it specifically referenced 'load bearing'.  That encourages me, thinking that flooring, paneling and siding might be OK without grading.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Nope! No one has ever rejected my stamp.  As by DOC PS 20 I have graded my lumber to meet the standards of ALSR and those by the SPIB which govern my wood.  The SPIB is a non-profit organization that was formed by the "BIG BOYS"  to take the rules of ALSR and use them to govern and control the "little guys".  I read and read and never found a law that said that the SPIB was the Ruler of the Land by the Government.  It all goes back to DOC PS 20.  SPIB even states "The grading of lumber cannot be considered an exact science..." and has no libility in a failed member that was stamped under their codes.  There are rules for green and air dried lumber as well as unfinished.  Meet these rules and your lumber is fit to be used.
   THE STAMP ONLY TELLS the TYPE OF WOOD, GRADE, THE MILL THAT SAWED OR GRADED IT AND THE one of seven Inspection Bureau's that set up the rules and charges for services.
  What they are doing in VA is great.   If all of us keep plugging away at our state boys we can make some changes.  Talking to your local inspectors in a nice and informitave way is the way to go.  Here in the County there are no rules other then common sense.  In town they have some rules but most are for elec and plumbing.  Most can see a good board when it is in front of them. 
  My stamp is good by DOC PS 20 and I follow all grade rules.  I would welcome a chance to attend school for grading but the SPIB just blew me off.  I guess if we get more states to accept us then they will open their arms and welcome us so they can control us.
  Learn and follow the rules and stamp your own lumber.  If some one challenges your grade have them bring in an inspector with the understanding loser pays the bill.   Read your building codes and learn what is asked for and most of the time you can meet it.  I never could find a federal law that stated that SSMU could not form and that the other non-profit  bureaus were all there could be.
  Hardwoods do not really have a structial grading system.  Most of what I have seen in timber framing refers to the grade of the face like in 4/4 lumber.  So much clear and no loose knots or rot.  There are charts for spans on most hardwoods like oak, ash , popular and others. 

  If you went to a box store with a grade book and graded their pile I would be willing to bet that more then 5% would not meet grade.  I have gotten several bundels when I built houses and would return 1/3 of it.  I have customers who will not buy lumber at the lumber yard any more because they like my boards better.  Soon I will be able to meet their needs all the time. 

[brdmkr]

shall be identified by the grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20 or equivalent.

It all goes back to DOC PS 20. SPIB even states "The grading of lumber cannot be considered an exact science..." and has no libility in a failed member that was stamped under their codes. There are rules for green and air dried lumber as well as unfinished. Meet these rules and your lumber is fit to be used.

What is to stop a someone from forming a nonprofit and stating that they follow DOC PS 20?   Members could pay a nominal fee for training that could be provided by a recognized professional.  Once trained, the nonprofit could issue a stamp.

[Zeke]

What is to stop a someone from forming a nonprofit and stating that they follow DOC PS 20?   Members could pay a nominal fee for training that could be provided by a recognized professional.  Once trained, the nonprofit could issue a stamp.

I think that is the question we would all like answered.  I would think membership in something like this would be worth one or two hundred dollars a year. Keeping training costs low would be the biggest problem. How about a Forestry Forum stamp? I would think many of the sponsors of the Forestry Forum would be willing to support such a group. Their business would benefit from it being easier to get lumber graded.

Zeke

[Buzz-sawyer]

The big mills........otherwise nothing

[Don P]

"When a DOC Voluntary Product Standard is made a part of a legal document, such as a sales contract or code, compliance with the standard is enforceable."

2.1 Accreditation—Procedure by which an authorita-tive
body gives formal recognition that a body or per-son
is competent to carry out specific tasks.
6.2.6]

"Producers, distributors, users, consumers, and other
interested groups contribute to the establishment of
DOC Voluntary Product Standards. These groups
initiate and participate in the development of the
standards, provide technical or other counsel as appropriate, promote the use of and support for the standards,
and assist in keeping them current with respect
to advancing technology and marketing practices."
Office of Standards Services, National Institute of
Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-
2150.


This is a link to SPIB's visually graded services web page;
http://www.spib.org/vglumber.shtml?/lumberservices.
Arky, how many sawyers could you get together for 4 days?
If they won't allow you training, TP would probably be glad to bring a program to you. Their stamp is on as much SYP as SPIB's here, they let me train there and took my money happily. I did find myself in the HD that was beside my motel while I was at the grading school. An armload of their 2x4's came into the class the next day.  :D

I think we should be trained...so should they. Wood does just happen to be the major structural element in most construction...grading education oughta be readily available to anyone pretty easily. Small producers and inspectors should have the same training as the "big boys". If the inspector asks for a judgement call, then third party auditing by one of the grading agencies could be called to come in.  If everyone is trained I kinda think its a non-issue.

All stress grading for knots is done the same in concept from what I was taught. It doesn't really matter the species or size, how you look at a piece of wood is the same, look inside the piece of wood as you grade. Find the worst defect. Almost all branches stem from the heart.  You visualize the knot displacement within the cross section of the piece of wood. Looking at all 4 faces, figuring out where the pith was. Knowing where the pith was in relation to the knots you see on any face. You can see where each branch is going, how much clear straight grained wood remains around the stick of weak branch that either passes through the timber or stops at the pith within it. Based on how much good wood is displaced by the knots, their size and location, according to the grade rules for that wood, a grade for the knots in the piece can be determined. If thats the worst defect that piece of wood has, that's the grade. The old timers rule of thumb is quarter, third , half ...#1,#2,#3.

To make a span table for dimensional lumber or to calculate a single beam's load and span, you take the grade (the proportion of good wood you have) and species of wood and look up the allowable design values. Those variables account for the different strength properties of each species. If you look at the design values for the different grades in every species, those strength values drop by about 1/4, 1/3, 1/2...basically how you look into wood and grade is the same, the design values account for the differences in size or species.

Anyone can petition the board of review of ALSC to become a grading agency, FF or SSMU could petition for that, I think it costs about $100,000 by the time its all done and said from what one biased source told me. There are several agencies that are former employees of other agencies who went out on their own...so it can be done, might be worth checking into. For small mills self grading and educated inspectors is the way I'd like to see it go, this isn't rocket science.

If anyone has some kind of span tables for appalachian hardwoods, I'd sure like to have some. I'm in a real weak position there, "official" hardwood span tables, graderules anything like that would go a real long way.

[Don P]

The regional head of the inspectors did question the authorship of my table, and asked if something was available from AFPA or AWPA

I did find this span calculator online at the AFPA website. It does put out longer spans than my table.
http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp

I was just using base design values, trying to keep it simple. The adjustment factors it uses do bump up the allowable spans quite a bit  8).

I was thinking back and did mis-speak. The reason we are only having a 1 day class here is that TP will only do a 1 day "introduction to lumber grading" on the road. The 4 day class is only available at their site in GA. The other time is more in depth knot and defect lessons, a tour of the lab and seeing how samples get tested (and breaking a few) and being tested at the end. I'll post how the 1 day class goes. We will end up with the same literature (rule books and pocket guides) as the 4 day class. I'll try to find out what this whole deal cost the state. If it goes well maybe have TP do a FF class sometime? Its a shame this wasn't part of shop class or drafting class in high school.

[DanG]

Not sure if Don P has already posted this link, so I'll put it up again.  Looks like some pretty good tables to keep handy.

http://www.southernpine.com/spantables.shtml

[Frank_Pender]

I will be meeting near the end of Sept. with the folks I spoke of earlier.  I would appreciate it if one and all would send me short specific ideas on how something might be established.   Personal message, or bettte yet direct e-mail me with ideas and then I can print them off and have them available when I attend the first meeting.

    thank you,   in advance. 8)

[beenthere]

Can someone venture to put up an objective as to what is the desire (need)?

This thread started with sawing lumber for ones own home. Is that still the intent on what might be 'established'?

Or is it now establishing another 'agency' to grade lumber for construction use and sell it in competition with the lumber yards including the box stores, so then consideration of how to compete against the established agencies is needed.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Little guys would find it VERY tough to compete with the box stores. The gist of the latter part of this thread is to help sawmill folks to get to use their own lumber for Home structural purposes, including BEAMS that the box stores don't handle.

  If I was stayin in the US, I would get involved BIG TIME. The present situation STINKS.

[Don P]

I hope that isn't the reason you're leaving Harold, this is still about the best place I've seen   ;D

This thread started with sawing lumber for ones own home

I think that was before I hijacked it  :-[...sorry guys, you can sure tell when I got a bee in my bonnet  :

This link shows how NH is doing it, sounds reasonable to me
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XL/434/434-59.htm

Notice that it references DOC PS20-70. I think we're up to PS20-95 or something close, that thing keeps changing slightly too. We do have input that NIST listens to.

[Fla._Deadheader]

DonP, I happen to agree with you. Hijacking a thread occasionally, for a good cause, is a GOOD thing, maybe  : ;D

  It's getting very difficult to afford to live in Florida. If I had some rich relatives, or was 20 years younger, I would probably stay.

  I've been known to speak my mind a time or two.  : : :D :D

[brdmkr]

Don

NH seems to have a law that is reasonable.  My primary interest is in being able to use my own lumber in my house.  I still have not had time to investigate what is acceptable and what is not in the state of GA.

However, the thread does seem to have take a different direction.  I think that the points that you and others have made are excellent.  I encourage you to do what you can.  Personally, I think graders should be certified and subject to losing their license if they are not honest and consistently able to grade accurately.  They should not be required to be fastened at the hip to a mill and their grade should suffice to meet the requirements of buildling codes.  I even think that continuing education requirements could be placed on graders.  Mills could have a stamp identifying the mill.  The grader could stamp as to species and grade along with some ID that is unique to the grader.

Of course, I admit that I don't know much in this area. (drastic understatement).  I do think the current system is not fair for smaller mills.

My .02 ( and it may not be worth that )

[beenthere]

Don P
The trend in this thread didn't bother me. It just seemed to be growing into something beyond the original interest, which I would like to see addressed (NH seems to have been able to address it quite well). 

Maybe similar intitial steps (state level acceptance of local lumber in building codes), that also seem to include the direction Arky has moved with his stamp, are what's needed to get a program moving. Then, possibly the need will expand to other building markets supplied with local lumber.  That seems to be your area of excitement as well as Frank Penders. I admit to being a bit in awe of what it will take to Get-R-Dun.

[Chris Burchfield]

One of the main functions of the ALSC is to maintain the American Softwood Lumber Standard (Voluntary Product Standard PS 20).  The current edition is PS 20-99. This web site provides good information: http://www.alsc.org/untreated_ps20_mod.htm . The PS 20-99 can be accessed there in adobe format. Hope this helps.

[Don P]

I appreciate you all's responses and am glad. I have smacked others upside the head on occasion while flailing at that bee...it wasn't intended  .

Just an update from my end, I did send the NH link to our regional chairman of the building officials. He's the one putting our class together. He is comfortable with the spancalc on the AFPA website. He found the NH law interesting, copied it for his records, asked if I would be presenting it at the class and offered to print copies for everyone attending.
He then asked if I had a delegate in mind to present it to the state legislature and if I had researched VA law to see if there is anything similar.
I think the delegate that got me this far is gonna hear from me again, I've kept him "in the loop" as things have been progressing, good guy. When I originally discussed this issue with my local inspectors they told me to talk to him as we had similar feelings.

I find it real hard to maintain an us vs. them attitude when they're so DanG helpful  8). Many of these guys seem to be rooting for us, we're all in this together. The big shots in Washington were trying to help everyone out and standardize the industry. The building codes wrote that standardization into the code in stronger and stronger language as time passed. Lawyers learned how to shift blame onto those building officials charged with enforcing the code. Inspectors began to enforce the letter of the code instead of the spirit. The basic idea of grading is good, I agree with it, and has pretty much worked, I don't think the big shots in government even know their big toe landed on some good little folk.

I have seen few laws expand freedom and so have mixed emotions about proposing a law. Some people who had more lenient inspectors may now find themselves having to train before their inspector will let them do what they were doing before...I hope they take it in stride and view it as continuing education  :-\.