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Started by wireflight, September 10, 2002, 11:30:28 PM

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wireflight

I'm doing the groundwork for a (very?) huge forestry venture.  The bad news is that, because of time constraints, the learning curve is extraordinarily steep.

I just had a couple of acres of pine cut (uncertain RE exact species).  Obviously, the income from the trees didn't make me rich, but it introduced me to an industry that I knew almost nothing about.

I wasn't able to be on-site to supervise the harvesting, but the generations of my family before me did a lot of logging.  I suppose what my predecessors called "conventional logging" would now be considered "extraordinarily low-impact logging."  I was utterly unprepared for the disaster I witnessed upon my return: the method used to harvest my trees was conventional logging.  To say that I am very much disappointed with the damage done to my hardwoods and remaining pines would be an understatement on the order of saying that the sun gives off light.

Environmental concerns are important to my venture.  I'm not going to rape the planet to make a profit: I don't have to.  On the other hand, I will need to harvest and process trees at a very rapid pace.  How do I determine the maximum sustainable labor rate of harvesting?  In other words, I want my crews to operate efficiently as removers and processors of trees -- all the while minimizing or preventing altogether the damage of trees not harvested, keeping the area reasonably tidy, etc.

Obviously, topography and road access are factors relating to the skidding/forwarding operations and the transport-to-mill operations, but I doubt the transportation or milling operations will be the slowest part of the process.  Should my projection be based on the volume of the trees harvested -- or should I use the tree count, height and diameter information from the cruise -- or can I simply say "x number of acres per day" when estimating labor?  Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

Tillaway

Don't take this the wrong way, but experience.  It sounds to me that if you have to ask these questions then you may not want to get into the venture.

Production output and costs are localized and dynamic.  There is no "book" rates that can estimate this, such as in construction or car repair.  There are way too many variables to even begin addressing on this forum in a way that could be usefull to you.  Basically everyone here would have to look at it to even give you an idea as to where to start.

Sorry :(
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Jeff

I have been laying back on this one in wait of the answers that I knew would come. I don't want to say this the wrong way either, but it sounds like you are ready to get into something you have no business getting into yet.  If you are going to do it right, you need to start at the bottom of someone elses pile that is doing it right.

Starting at the top and doing it wrong till you learn different is not what this industry needs. What we get is someone like you telling us:

 "I was utterly unprepared for the disaster I witnessed upon my return: the method used to harvest my trees was conventional logging.  To say that I am very much disappointed with the damage done to my hardwoods and remaining pines would be an understatement"

I don't want to try to read between your lines any more then I have already, but by the questions you asked, and the statements you make, I don't have a good feeling. There is just no way you can go into this in the manner you suggest without somebody losing.

Or Everybody.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

wireflight

Methinks I did not accurately present the nature of my concern.  I am not at all interested in the minutiae of the labor: there are experts that are best suited to that sort of thing.  Think of it this way: Donald Petersen or Le Iacocca probably both know how to change a tire and their vehicle's oil, but neither is particularly suited to designing or building an entire vehicle.  Their expertise is in corporate management: putting together competent, profitable teams.  Each man either personally experienced great disappointment as the result of the incompetence of someone (or several someones) that he trusted, or he knew what to avoid based on the report of someone else.

The two acres I had harvested was in response to an attack by the Southern Pine Beetle.  Someone recommended the harvesters to me, and I trusted their recommendation.  And my comments regarding the disaster should not be construed to indicate that a crime against nature occurred.  Rather, the post-harvesting results, in my opinion, significantly and unnecessarily diminished the aesthetic appeal of my property, primarily because the harvesting operation was either unplanned or incompetently planned.

My venture will utilize work-planning teams, at least one senior member of which will be a forester.  Because this is a business venture, there will be in place all controls appropriate to ensure responsible harvesting, transportation and processing.  I fully understand that the scheduling of harvesting is more art than science, and the reasons therefor, but I find it hard to imagine that no one has developed either a table or a formulaic model to estimate time-versus-product rates.

Jeff

Your asking for the application of the chaos theory. Applying a formulaic model to something as dynamic as a timber harvest would have to include thousands or tens of thousands of variables.

"For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the rider was lost;
For want of a rider, a message was lost;
For want of a message the battle was lost;
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost!"
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Texas Ranger

First place to start would be the general location you're talking about,  I assume the south, since you talk about SPB's.  

I am a practicing forester in the south (Texas) and I can tell you that tables are going to get you in trouble.  Each job is it's an animal, willing to bite you when you least expect it and time tables, work ratios to cost or income, or any other type will let you get further down the critters gullet before you feel the teeth.

If it is a large project than the start is a competent forester making an over all master plan, with timetables and goals,  knowing that weather and stumpage will change it before the ink is dry.

Your teams had better have some one experienced in logging in your area, as well as a forester that has seen the elephant first hand.

Your teams need to be working woodsmen, not accountants, lawyers, or other pocket protector types.  You get the right ones, and you're on the road.  Let the business men worry about paying the bills and investing the income.

The end results of a 2 acre spg control harvest is never going to look good, it is not harvesting, it is insect control.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Tillaway

I have had experience (a little too close) with what you are trying to do.  The formulas you want can be made and do exist.  The problem is they are very general and reflect industry averages.  A Forest Engineer can develope models, tables and provide the information you want specific to your operation.  But the problem is that they are a SWAG.  Your team should consist of a Forester, Forest Engineer and Logging Supervisor.  The calculations from the Forest Engineer will get you financing, but the Logging Super's opinion should overide any of the FE"s calculations.  FE's think about it...LS's do it.

It is vital that upper mangement be experienced with the trade so they know what the people under them are trying to say. I have personnally seen two large (one owned about 500,000 acres) operations go broke because the highest management were not hands on in the industry.  
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Ron Wenrich

Okay, what you are saying is that you don't need to know how to cut down a tree in order to do a good harvesting job.  You are probably right from that aspect.

But, timber harvesting is not manufacturing.  In manufacturing, you can have some control over the environment and the product being produced.  You also have contol over product flow.  If you can maximize your product flow, you can maximize profits or minimize costs.

In harvesting, you lose most of those controls.  You cannot control raw material size or shape.  You cannot control location.  You have minimal control over logging weather (you can decide to stay out of the woods during bad weather, but you may go broke).   You cannot control markets.

The only control you have is equipment choice and labor choice.  

To come up with a unit cost, you need to know how many pieces can be yarded per turn, and how long it takes to make a turn which is adjusted for non-productive time.

The number of pieces will depend on log size, number of logs to be removed, and physical limitations of the yarding system.  The cycle time will be dependent on the distance to the landing.

I would opt to go with a unit cost in either tons, cords or Mbf, depending on the product you are producing.  I wouldn't go with tree count or acres/day.  There are too many variables.  

You also will have to analyze your harvesting system.  It sounds like you will be very top heavy with management.  Very few woodsworkers have BS degrees.  To get one, you will have to pay more than someone with a high school or an Associates degree.  You might want to think of a forester to oversee several operations, and not just one.

To minimize damages, you will be looking more at log length skidding (additional handling), or you will be using a forwarder (additional equipment).  That means to be competitive, you have to have more production to lower your unit cost.

You will be able to predict your unit cost within a range.  But unit cost will go up as payloads decrease and yarding distance increase.

In my area, I've been hearing about $50-60/Mbf doyle log scale for logging costs.  These will differ from area to area.  Your state forestry bureau should be able to give you an estimate.  Then, do your math, and see how you stack up.  If you can't come within the local norm, you won't be doing much business.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

wireflight

Thanks, Don Staples and Tillaway!  Those were exactly the responses I needed!

I wholeheartedly agree that the people planning the work, doing the work, etc. must be as indicated.  My role will simply be to acquire the resources and coordinate the overall effort.  A micro-manager, I am not -- but I did want to get the most reasonable idea that I could regarding labor.

RE insect control, only a few hours ago, I was told basically the same thing.  It's just that the land belonged to my parents and grandparents, and I have a really soft spot in my heart for the things that remain.

Perhaps without exception, all the managerial failures that I have witnessed were the result of administrative personnel attempting to supplant the decisions of operational managers.  I don't have such a sensitive ego: I value the input of those most intimately familiar with their trade.  If I facilitate their ability to do what they do best, I have done well.  If I do so in a financially responsible manner, I get paid, too.  

wireflight

Added thanks to Ron Wenrich!  I just didn't finish my reply in time to read your post.

DanG

ForestryForum comes through again! 8) 8) 8)

Good luck with your project, Wireflight. Stick around and let us follow the progress.. :P
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

ladylamb

I like the way you want to cut timber, wireflight.  I know of several tracts of standing timber that are for sale in the WV area and we're looking for someone to buy and cut them, but like you I've seen some disgraceful cutting done.  Your info. doesn't tell where you are.......and sounds like you are working on a big job......but I have to ask.....any chance you would be interested in our timber?

wireflight

Hi, lady_lamb!

My current project pretty much has me swamped.  I've got 2 businesses under research and I'm working at another.  One of my best friends just bought a property that needs major work, and I'm committed to helping him and his family.  There have been more offers in the past week than I could keep up with -- few having anything to do with forestry, but interesting, nevertheless.  For the record, interesting does not necessarily translate "profitable" -- LOL.

I'm don't want to come across as altogether uninterested or anything like that, but my plate is pretty full for the rest of this year.  I hope that doesn't come across as rude.  You know, there are probably some people in your area that could do what you are thinking about.

Put together a business plan.  If funds are short, make it a partnership or a corporation.  Assemble a team (see previous recommendations to me) to manage the timber operation.  BC has tried some things you may be interested in considering.  If I can find the link again, I'll post it.

Thanks for the compliment, and best wishes on your projects.  How 'bout it, everybody?  Got any recommendations to help out the missus?

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