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Bucking logs for mill.

Started by jwh f-100, December 22, 2018, 07:32:36 PM

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jwh f-100

Hey all..

I'm looking for input, literature, really anything on the basics of bucking hardwood logs for selling..

As far as length I know 8-10-12 are the most popular.. Do loggers just cut what you can or do you stay with one length to simplify, all 8s all 10s or all 12s??

How far beyond the mark do you need to cut the logs?  

When it comes to diameter what's the minimum? Does it depend on species??

Bring it on. I'm a sponge..

Thanks!
Why buy it when you can build it.

Southside

The first thing I would do is get a price sheet from whatever mill or mills you are hoping to sell to.  If possible ask to speak with the grader to get an idea of what they look at and how they grade, maybe even walk along with them as the grade a few loads of logs.  

That will give you the basics as far as length, diameter, and necessary trim.  From there you learn to determine which log to cut to 10' vs 12' as you know it will grade higher due to defects, size, how to make more on two straight 8' logs vs one 16' that has sweep in it. 

You really need to get the specs from the buyers directly as it can vary from region to region and even mill to mill when it comes to what they want. 
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mike_belben

[SSL posted while i was typing- i agree with all of what he said]

You have to ask the mill exactly what they want, cut a load that way and bring it in then walk with the scaler and see if you got it right.  If a mill is overfull of say 8' red oaks theyll either drop the price hard to slow the flow or maybe refuse them.  In my experience most will just pay crap money, cheap enough they can resell to another mill for a markup.

Theyre gonna pay best for whatever they have a shortage of and that'll change sporadically so ya just hafta ask.  In general any mill is gonna want a 12 more than a 10 and a 10 more than an 8.  If they get an order for 8s they can cut down 10s or 12s.  But they cant make 12s out of 8s.  The pay scale will always reflect that.  Yeah you can sell an 8 but not only do you have less boardfoot than a 12, youre getting less PER boardfoot.  Its a lower pay bracket in sawlogs.

Youll have to ask what theyll take for smallest diameter. Its gonna be inside bark measured at small end.  Lets say theyll buy white oak tie logs down to 12" inside bark.  A tie log needs a single heart, you cant have two heart circles in the end where the first fork is. Lay your tree down, go to the top end and estimate where you can cut it to get that minimum spec.. Always leave extra and whittle back until you get that first clean, sound single hearted 12" inside face. Go back to the butt.. Clean it up for a sound end.  Now with a hatchet start measuring out what logs you can make from the stem.  

This is a juggling act to try making the most money from each tree.  Sometimes theres 2 big branches or a crook down low if you make the buttlog a 12, but if you make it a 10 and then get an entire extra tie log out of the top by shifting all your cuts youll come out ahead.  Sometimes its the opposite.  It just takes practice but try to put your joints on your defects and your defects on your thinnest or lowest grade logs.    Always expect a defect to be lurking inside there until you buck and see that there isnt one.  Like has been said here you just cant trust a dang tree for anything. Theyre rotten SOB's and sometimes through no fault of your own, you lose a few bucks on a tree that looks good but aint.  Its aggravating but oh well, on to the next one.

Thick>long. Play around with a doyle scale calculator to see how much more BF you get from girth than length.

Straight>thick.  If you bring a log that looks like a banana you might not get a cent for it, especially in knotty tie grade stuff.  A tie needs to be straight but can be covered in knots on all 4 sides.  The thicker and longer and cleaner a log the higher its value.  

10s and 12s are universally sellable but if the tree has a big crook, cut it out if at all possible.  A long sweep is better to cut short logs.. Itll look straighter.  

Some product i can get away with 3" minimum trim, but usually its 6. Best to ask or leave extra.  If i have a min spec of 16'6 for a switch tie and i find a clean sound single heart switch tie at 17'2 i am loading it just like that.  trim it to 16'6 for them and you just might find an ant tube or a shake ring that you dont want to know about. That costs you way more than the free 8" you gave em at 17'2.

Good luck.
Praise The Lord

BargeMonkey

Both of the prior replys hit the nail. 99% of it is what the buyer / mill wants, if your into that much good wood dont be embarrassed to ask one of the buyers to come out and mark a bunch up for you and show you what they want, any buyer who wont do that should be avoided. 

mike_belben

I forgot to mention, dont let them know youre green.  Some mills will take advantage of it.  The less you talk at first, the better off you are and when you ask questions keep them short and sweet and remember/write down the answer.  If you dont understand it come ask us.  Best best thing u can do is get a price/spec sheet emailed or snail mailed or pickup in person if close enough, its always smart to pre-trip it before getting stuck on someones lawn trying to turn around an overloaded trailer on your first haul when you miss a turn or cant figure which entrance to use.  

A mill with a good clear spec sheet is usually nicer to deal with.  theyre making the effort to work with new customers that arent lifetime loggers, start with that place and let them teach you to be a better producer.  Flip side, there are some rude, crotchety mills out there that dont give a dang about offending and shafting you either.  avoid them if you have the option.   Dont let being green make you feel inferior or intimidated.  Ive seen so many crappy high grade logging jobs and shoddy looking loads come from the bigshot cocky logger in front of me, then the scaler says 'if he cut his like you cut yours [which is exactly how im told] i could pay him a grand more every week.' So a big name reputation is not what the mill pays for.  They pay for a tidy product cut exactly how they want it, that they need badly.  I am a housewife most of the time but thats $1500 of whiskey barrels i put on the ground without making a rut.  If i can roll up my skirt and get it done, anybody can.  Go get em. 

 smiley_thumbsup



Praise The Lord

mills

Back years ago I had an old log buyer that told me that in good wood "all ways buck for grade." At that time the mill was looking for 12' stuff, but he said that he and I both would make more money on a veneer 8' log vs. a 10' or 12' with defects on the last few feet. That was a long time ago, but that little advice is still making me money today. 

jwh f-100

Thanks all for the replies! Much appreciated.. 

I'm a land owner in NE PA looking to cut my own timber. have the equipment and want to do myself..

I have a mill just up the road.. I'll pay them a visit.. I'll chew their ear about logs prices and hauling.  I could haul to them with a single axle dump truck or have them pick up.. 

There is another mill fairly close that I understand is paying good for ash which is what I'm looking to cut first..






Why buy it when you can build it.

GAB

Quote from: mike_belben on December 22, 2018, 08:17:31 PM
Some product i can get away with 3" minimum trim, but usually its 6. Best to ask or leave extra.  If i have a min spec of 16'6 for a switch tie and i find a clean sound single heart switch tie at 17'2 i am loading it just like that.  trim it to 16'6 for them and you just might find an ant tube or a shake ring that you dont want to know about. That costs you way more than the free 8" you gave em at 17'2.
At 17'-2" that means that that log could be cut into 2 eights and still have the 6" minimum trim allowance for each one.
Gerald
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thecfarm

The mill I was selling to has a rule now that a 8 foot eastern pine logs goes to a pallet grade,even if it grades out as a #1. :o 
Yes,find out EXACTLY what they will pay for.
When we first started selling to the mill above there was a white pine pallet grade. There still is.They cut out the knots and bad places and dove tall it. My Father and me chased down every ugly pine we had on our land and sold them ugly logs to them. Some even had crotch wood in them. :o And they paid us the same for them. Some was too big to go through he debarker,so they had high school kids peeling them. My Father said,you can sell good logs anytime. But you cannot sell bad logs anytime. He could not believe the junk they brought from us. Pallet grade than was twice what pulp paid. Now pallet grade is only pulp price. Some of the limbs was more than 6 inches across. We hauled out some of the limbs for pulp.
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mike_belben

If a log is under 9'3 i cannot sell it as a tie, it'd be 2common.   If it is a 9'3 tie i get tie rate but only on 8ft of doyle scale per every 9'3 log. It was several loads before i figured that part out.  If i cut it 10'3 or more i get paid on 10ft doyle of a tie log.  

Little details that add up to a half tank of diesel on a load.  
Praise The Lord

Bandmill Bandit

I mark at the required length for the cut lumber plus 6 inch then saw to leave the mark still visible. generally ends up at X' 6.5" 
works good MOST of the time.
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thecfarm

Interesting how you guys talk about tie. I have not heard of a tie market in this area. Not saying there is not one,but have not heard it mentioned.
Than some logs are sold by the ton. ???   The only ton weight here is pulp. Last time I was selling pulp,about 20 years ago,was nothing over 8 feet long and longer than 4 feet. There was something like a 20 foot length about 10 years ago?
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dsroten

The tie log is name is unusual to me to.  Around here its #1-#2 and so on.  1 being the prime log.

My mill will pay #1 for any hardwood log from 8 to 16 ft if it's clear and big enough.   So those oaks on the edge might still yield a #1 log.

For pine its gotta be 16 ft to be #1 period.  Anything 8 feet is automatically lowest grade.  So as others have said, talk to your mill.  

BargeMonkey

 If you've got a quantity of ash the time is now to get rid of it. Talk to 5-6 places, compare the sheets, dont drink the koolaid and ship to 1 mill constantly unless you really feel like they are treating you right, I've got 3 I ship to and will play 1 against the other if I can depending on what logs are hot, buyers on the landing have some flexibility if your in good wood. The mill / buyer will cut you off in a heartbeat when things are slow, shop around, find a couple guys with small bandmills for logs, it's all about utilization. 

mike_belben

A tie log is bought really just for the center cant so straight and sound is all that matters.  Theyre used for railroad ties, dunnage, cribbing blocks and crane mats.   The log can have 20 knots, no issue, they just slab it off heavy instead of pulling lumber from the jacket.  Pays between $270 to 400/mbf depending on species and length.  Pays better than 2com but below 1com by size.  Above 1com is prime B then prime A then stave then veneer.  Not every mill uses these terms here, some are just #1 thru 4. The prime A and B are just good sawlogs with some clean grade lumber on the jacket boards.

 A switch tie is where the railroad track forks and they have to be single piece up to 16ft before the track drops back to a single 8ft tie bed. White oak switches pay 400/mbf and are my bread and butter, im always trying to make switches from tops, how else ya gonna get 40cents/ft for firewood?   My biggest challenge is getting 50-60cents a foot for 50-60cent logs.  If a mill pays good for ties they average it out by calling almost every log you bring them a tie.  
Praise The Lord

Cub

Here verneer #1 #2 #3 sawlogs are 8's 10's and 12's. Add 8 inches for trim.  We have a hardwood and aspen bolt market. Cut em 100". No rot. As many knots as you want. Straight 8-18 inches. They use them for pallet lumber. Pulp/firewood all 100"

Cub

I square up the end. Measure from butt end up to 1st knob or crotch or minimum diameter or whatever n then figure out what I can cut out of that measurement to get the best utilization from that. Usually a mix if 8's and 10's. Like others said sometimes you can go up a grade cutting longer with a knot in the last foot or 2. Sometimes. Call where you want to sell. They'll tell you what you can do. Other than that it learn by doing. Sometimes after the fact you learn what you should've done. But then you know for next time. 

mike_belben

A shortwood bolt market would be great for everybody in rural tennessee.  Theres so much garbage growing in our woods that needs to go, and so many poor folks who could benefit from small scale logging [atv or tractor +ton truck.]  The kinda stuff you could hand load.  The last shortwood pallet mill switched to min 8'6 last year or so.  
Praise The Lord

mills

Quote from: dsroten on December 23, 2018, 04:22:08 PM
The tie log is name is unusual to me to.  Around here its #1-#2 and so on.  1 being the prime log.

My mill will pay #1 for any hardwood log from 8 to 16 ft if it's clear and big enough.   So those oaks on the edge might still yield a #1 log.

For pine its gotta be 16 ft to be #1 period.  Anything 8 feet is automatically lowest grade.  So as others have said, talk to your mill.  
Different markets for different areas. Here we would be in a big hurt if it wasn't for a tie market. Like Mike said we're getting a decent price for low grade logs. On all oaks I cut the grade the logs, and then everything else goes in the tie pile. But now we also do not have a pine market. One local mill just started taking pine for pulp, but their price is low enough that a guy can't chase a big lot. Thank goodness that there is very little pine in my area.

Skeans1

Out here there's two main hardwood mills, one is on the tier system and prefers 10 foot multiples with 40's being about all they pay for well really a 42. The other is camp run so the only break for price is based on top diameter just have to keep in their preferred lengths x amount percent per load.

mike_belben

Ditto what mills said. There is one place i can sell pine to at $200/mbf but i never have.  Pine pulp is $15/ton, and no one will accept it as firewood.  Cant break even at those prices.  

Praise The Lord

moodnacreek

Felling and bucking is where it all starts. To fall a tree at the ground and do absolutely no damage to the butt log and then buck out the lengths with no tear or pull out etc. separates the real loggers from the boys. Better have 2 saws and wedges if learning this.

jwh f-100

Quote from: mike_belben on December 24, 2018, 09:01:47 AM
Ditto what mills said. There is one place i can sell pine to at $200/mbf but i never have.  Pine pulp is $15/ton, and no one will accept it as firewood.  Cant break even at those prices.  
Mike , can I pm you with a question?? Thanks
Why buy it when you can build it.

mike_belben

Sure, I might not be qualified to give good advice but its never stopped me before.  :new_year: 
Praise The Lord

jwh f-100

Quote from: mike_belben on January 02, 2019, 03:19:02 PM
Sure, I might not be qualified to give good advice but its never stopped me before.  :new_year:
Haha.. close enough.. 😁
Why buy it when you can build it.

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