The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Firewood and Wood Heating => Topic started by: woodshax on April 12, 2017, 03:52:34 PM

Title: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on April 12, 2017, 03:52:34 PM
I am hoping to start up a series of conversations about how to maximize profits for those of us in the firewood sales game.   As we all have our own territories, sharing best practices will only serve to give us new ideas and avenues rather than making the competitor better at taking our business.  The agenda is not to shamelessly plug my invention but to start gathering info on how to cut costs during production and places and people to sell to for maximum profit......without ripping anyone off.
I have been focusing on the retail end of the business rather than the production side so, I have not invested in automated processing and bagging equipment.  As a result my firewood costs are high.  I buy from guys who sell it by the cord or have Tree Services drop off wood rather than dump it (but that is generally green wood and if I am not there to watch...a lot of garbage wood and debris).  I make it up by selling by the stick at State parks at a price that reflects the convenience of having the wood there and not having to tote it in when you could have that space available for more beer.   I can't wrap my mind around doing all the hard work and selling to a convenience store owner only to have them double the price for having it in their store from.

So share your secrets to success and what has failed for you so we can all learn

Woodshax.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: armechanic on April 18, 2017, 09:22:29 AM
I sell bundled firewood (3/4 cu.ft.) in North Ark. I think I may have talked to you before. I would like to use vending machines at some point, but will have to get a heat treat kiln first for state parks. I am only selling to a couple of stores close by right now.  So I am glad to see this post and will check in often.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Mooseherder on April 18, 2017, 12:19:49 PM
I think there is a untapped market for these type products at Campgrounds along with bags of Charcoal.  Stores are expanding displays to carry bags of Oak, Mesquite, Hickory and these I took a picture of.  Retailing just under 4 dollars a bag makes me wish I had a Forest of it.  These items would definitely compliment your operations.  I'd estimate the percentage of our meals over charcoal are at least 25%.  Well over 50% of our Dinner is cooked outside.  I use these chunks on the perimeters to get some smoke flavor and the bags last me.  I brought 6 bags of Apple with me when we went to Maine last year and went thru 4.  I've also used these chunks in my Smoker with better results than the Chips.  Charcoal pricing hasn't gone down in the 40 years I have been buying it.  On the Charcoal side I'm disappointed with Kingsford quality and have found better products that last longer and at 60% of the cost out there.  Only thing worse is having to go hunt some down when you need it. ;)

   

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/20170418_1144225B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1492531249)
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on April 18, 2017, 01:34:39 PM
Absolutely,  Firewood and charcoal go hand in hand when camping and we sure do see the need in the 11 parks that we have now.   I have parks throughout Texas that want the machines but they are too far away for me to service.....I am considering leasing them to the Friends groups at these parks and doing all their back office record keeping for a percentage of the sales if they fill them....I prefer to use very local wood or heat treated (we are playing with kiln building now) but it is very difficult to find a reliable firewood dealer to take on the task in these parks.  And.....pretty soon every state will adopt the Local wood or heat treated wood policies anyway.  The National Parks are already at gather it on site or heat treated only.  I was just contacted by the friends group at Inks Lake near Austin and they have 200 camp sites and have gone through 15 cords since 1 January but it is on an honor system and they have a lot of "shrinkage".... The only thing I can figure to do is take them down a big trailer of bundled wood and Have it secured at the park maintenance site and then the friends can fill when needed and then I will only have to go down once a month or so.  At $1200 a cord in the machines there is still a profit
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: armechanic on April 22, 2017, 05:51:45 PM
I am wanting to build a heat treat kiln, It looks like that is the coming thing, already is in the state parks and would like to try the vending machines.  We have a large chain of convenience stores that claim they lose to much so I might change their minds with the idea of machines and the state parks, but that is a huge investment trying to buy that many.  I also have a lot of hickory and cherry wood. I guess I just need to get out and hustle.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on April 25, 2017, 12:56:46 PM
Don't know if you have thought about apartments with wood burning fireplaces in the winter for a machine or sales but to rent some land space from the apartment manager would have higher profit than the gas stations....those owners want to just double the price you sell to them for
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: WV Sawmiller on April 26, 2017, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: woodshax on April 12, 2017, 03:52:34 PM
I can't wrap my mind around doing all the hard work and selling to a convenience store owner only to have them double the price for having it in their store from.
Woodshax.


   I've said this on other threads but I really can't understand the issue with someone else marking up any product to what the market will stand. As long as they pay me, the supplier, a price that I am satisfied with what is wrong with them doing their marketing, handling and taking a chance it will sell? I really see nothing wrong with this.  We buy a log for $.50/bf, process it into lumber, slabs, etc for another $.50 then sell it for $4/bf. What is different about that?

   BTW - I recently forwarded a link to your site to a friend who sits on our county parks and recreation committee. They took over several parks from the state last summer and are still trying to figure the best way to run them as a service and to best benefit the county and residents. He is looking into using your machines.

    Do you sell and support your machines as far away as southern WV?

   
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: armechanic on April 27, 2017, 10:23:29 AM
As of right now, the stores markup is two dollars a bundle.  I don't have any thing to do with how they price  If I used machines I would just pay them for the space.  We have lakes and camp areas here where the machines would work good, but would have to be heat treated, several thousand dollars, machines to sell, several thousand dollars each.  I don't know if it would pay out or not.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: nativewolf on April 27, 2017, 10:52:58 AM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on April 26, 2017, 08:45:35 PM
Quote from: woodshax on April 12, 2017, 03:52:34 PM
I can't wrap my mind around doing all the hard work and selling to a convenience store owner only to have them double the price for having it in their store from.
Woodshax.


   I've said this on other threads but I really can't understand the issue with someone else marking up any product to what the market will stand. As long as they pay me, the supplier, a price that I am satisfied with what is wrong with them doing their marketing, handling and taking a chance it will sell? I really see nothing wrong with this.  We buy a log for $.50/bf, process it into lumber, slabs, etc for another $.50 then sell it for $4/bf. What is different about that?

   BTW - I recently forwarded a link to your site to a friend who sits on our county parks and recreation committee. They took over several parks from the state last summer and are still trying to figure the best way to run them as a service and to best benefit the county and residents. He is looking into using your machines.

    Do you sell and support your machines as far away as southern WV?



Completely agree on the pricing points you make.  If you are happy selling it to someone for a price X than why do you care what they do with it? 
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Jeff on April 27, 2017, 11:23:54 AM
The comment isn't in regards or contest to how much the other guy is making, its in regards to how much HE could be making by selling himself given the opportunity. I understand completely. Just because one wonders if you can make more instead of the other guy, doesn't mean you have an issue with someone else making money.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Mooseherder on April 27, 2017, 11:40:27 AM
Retail Stores have high operating overhead.  A 50 thousand square foot Grocery store with refrigeration has a monthly electric bill around 25 thousand.  Rent or Mortgage and Employees is a whole lot more.  Plus you have to make money for keeping everything running and replacement costs.  There are pages of other expenses.  If you have theft from employees or customers you're out of business quickly.  Smaller convenience stores have the same expenses proportionally lower but it's all relative.  The Market will dictate prices as customers will either buy the products or buy the item at another location that they know has it at a cheaper rate.  Without volume, none of it works out for anybody big or small because of your fixed expenses.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on April 28, 2017, 09:00:32 AM
Well first,  I am glad the thread is starting to generate debate and Jeff, thanks for the back up!  I have no problem with the store owner making money....I just think we should make more! and be happier!.   Generally the firewood is kept out front of the store and other than a small allotment of space, it does not cost them much in operating costs.  For the most part, unless the store is near campgrounds the firewood sales are seasonal.  I like sales all year long!  even in Texas in the summer when the low temp at night is 82 degrees....people are still burning a lot of wood for the "experience".  I would rather lease space from a store owner in the winter and give him a percentage of sales or move the machines to a big apartment complex that has apartments with wood fire places and rent space from them (if texas parks were not open all year round).  The reasons I have the machines at local parks is really just to gain the sales metrics and prove the concept to some day sell the machines to others who want to supplement their wholesale sales.  So far the Return on investment from my parks would yield (on average) a 100% return on investment within 14 months (at full retail price).  So far, this year with 11 parks (and climbing) we have $50,000 in sales and half of that is profit.   I am just afraid I will run out of trees in Texas.  But now these sales covers all my overhead and allows me to do other projects and concentrate more on manufacturing and reducing those costs.

Right now I am looking at leasing machines to parks or friends groups of parks ( percentage of sales goes to them and I manage the back office) that are too far away from me to service and then dumping large quantities of bagged wood in their off limits maintenance area and having them stock the machines...or partnering with large wholesale sellers.  So WV, I would be interested in going to West Virginia (once I can make enough machines to support it) are you interested in supplying and/or filling?

I have 6 parks in North east Texas wanting the service and now the Austin Area parks are wanting in.

Just saying.... we work hard to provide the product....how do we keep more in our pockets?

So my short comings are in the sourcing, processing and bagging.....

My 2 cu ft bags cost me about 22 cents and my bundling .75s cost about 14 cents plus labor and my transportation cost is about 50 cents a bag to get them in the parks and stocked

Do I buy the right equipment or source from the right wholesaler?
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Magicman on April 28, 2017, 09:39:16 AM
This whole concept is far outside of my circle, but I believe that the logistics will work themselves out in each situation.  :P  You have a vast network of folks here on the FF that want to see this venture succeed.  I encourage you to keep on keeping on.   8)
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: WV Sawmiller on April 28, 2017, 02:08:18 PM
Woodshax,

   I am not in the firewood business nor am I interested in servicing or filling the machines. Since you are a FF sponsor and worthy of extra consideration I was just passing along your info to a friend who I felt might have a need as part of his normal duties on the committee. If the county decides to buy the machines I figure they can either contract with someone to provide the wood and fill them or they might choose to self-perform and have their maintenance people save the trees they have to cut anyway and cut and split into firewood and put in the machines themselves. If it were me I would do that then I could brag about creating jobs as well as providing a quality service to our park patrons.

   Good luck on your continued success in your venture.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Pclem on April 29, 2017, 09:19:25 AM
We supply about 20,000 bundles locally here in WI a year. We have a couple large c-store chains, a couple state parks, and a private campground. We dry everything in a kiln. We have bought logs and processed, bought split wood, bought kiln dried wood, bought packaged wood, and now, are back to logging ourselves. Everything is done by Me, my wife, and the kids when we deliver in the summer. I go back and forth on the idea of hiring help, and that scares the crap out of me. I have a hunch we will stay small and family, and continue to invest in more productive equipment instead of employees. The process has a ton of hours per cord, from splitting small pieces, to packaging, to running around filling stores. Like I said, the only thing I can come up with to grow without employees is better equipment. Any ideas, I'm all ears!
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on April 30, 2017, 08:52:03 AM
WV Sawmiller Thank you very much for the referral I greatly appreciate it.
Pclem,  I wish I could find an operation like yours close by me....I may have to go the "better equipment" route as well to reduce costs
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on May 08, 2017, 07:46:24 AM
So,  bagging, bundling or loose...what works for you?

I bag my large offering ...2 cuft by volume mesh bags at 22 cents a piece (right at 40 to 45 lbs) and bundle the traditional .75 cu ft....about 14 cents for plastic manour
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on May 18, 2017, 08:08:11 AM
So how about the the "don't move firewood"  craze that is sweeping the country to combat the spread of tree disease and invasive species.....and add to the USDA coffers?   We do not have any regulations yet in Texas, but they are coming.  We have already started sourcing firewood from 50 miles or less from each of our state parks and have started a kiln project to provide "kiln dried" to supplement and hope to move to "heat treated" with the USDA stamp.....but that is expensive to get certified....I have heard the process is upwards of $15,000 to get certified.....anyone out there already "heat treated" or trying to get there? 
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Pclem on May 27, 2017, 08:00:16 AM
We heat treat everything. It costs us $50/ year for certification from the state. I don't think USDA is much more. [ I hear they just check up on ya more ]. Not sure where you heard the $15k to get certified, unless they're adding kiln expense in there [which $15k is pretty darn cheap for a kiln ]
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on May 29, 2017, 09:05:25 AM
Good to know.... had not checked in to certification yet just kiln requirements and standards...We are going to build a kiln and learn from there...We have a while in Texas before it would be a requirement but want to already be there when they get serious about it.   15K must have included set up
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on August 21, 2017, 11:04:20 AM
It has been a while....We purchased a used skid steer and dino bags....I found a supplier who can drop the split wood from the conveyor right into the bags then load on our trailer and we offload at our operation......once we do the first 20 or so bags we will have the 95% solution for average cuft per bag ....the reduction in "touch time" should drop our labor costs a bit and at 200 cords a year it should add up.....anyone else out there do it this way or have tried and failed?
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on February 14, 2018, 11:11:20 AM
So here is how we are cutting down on time and effort to fill our firewood bags


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44375/firewood_bags.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518624304)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44375/moving_bags.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518624387)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44375/loading_table.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518624431)
 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44375/dino_bag.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1518624468)
 

We do both bags and the traditional .75 bundles. Our bags are  32 x 21 They are a tighter weave than the smaller ones from China and last 3 times as long in the sun before they breakdown. The bags fit 1.3 to 1.4 cu ft at 18' and we sell about 5 to 1 bags Vs Bundles at 15 State parks in the DFW area. Making larger bundles is a bit cumbersome for campers to carry and they like the bags better. We have all our local firewood suppliers toss the splits into these bags (get them for $5 a piece used) and they last a long time. The big bags hold right at .25 Cords (true cords). We are constantly checking the bag yields to get the average and then pay accordingly.  Selling retail by the stick in state parks gets us at about $1200 a cord and the campers and park staff are happy.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: Magicman on February 15, 2018, 09:20:59 AM
Yours is a fascinating business venture and you are consistently looking for ways to "trim the fat".   smiley_thumbsup  (old saying)
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on February 16, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
Thanks magicman,  only way to make a profit is to keep figuring out how to get faster and better
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: starmac on February 16, 2018, 05:24:11 PM
We hauled probably 30, 30 ton loads of logs to a firewood guy that sells it all in the small bundles.
Other than unloading our trucks, which changed (more on this later) the first time him or any of his hands touched a log, the wood was cut, split, bundled and stacked on a pallet, before it left the processor.

The last load I hauled to him, there was a semi van trailer there for him to load, that belonged to a large grocery store chain. This was a new customer, and he had signed a contract to furnish them 7,000 bundles a week. This was on top of the 4500 bundles he was already committed to at his regular customers he delivered to.

While hauling to him, it became handier and easier for the logger I haul for to buy a log loader and leave it at his place, so we could unload our own trucks. His processors 2 of them could handle 24 foot logs, so we had to reconfigure our trucks to haul short logs just for him, we did this with a quick change method so we could in one day have our trucks back to long loggers.
It was not a high profit venture for the logger, nor us truckers, but it did give us something to haul when we couldn't haul to the saw mill and every stick we hauled him was tops that the logger would have normally left in the woods. So by processing the tops, the logger was able to make a few bucks off the waste.

Now here is the problem he is running and it is going to get worse. The guy has to have dry wood. before he started buying wood from us, he had leased a long log rig from the pellet mill and was buying logs that we had hauled in and decked there 2 years before and a lot of them were off a burn sale and dry to start with.
We had decks of tops that had bee decked as long as 3 years, so dry wood and still do.
His yard can only hold so many truck loads and we filled it up, his capital only goes so far to buy wood and we over taxed that big time.
Not a real big deal, except getting the logs out of the woods is seasonal, and his business runs year round, no way he can store enough logs, nor pay for them to last through the off season, so he has a storm brewing, that he is not sure how it is going to work out. Getting big time has it's on set of problems.
Title: Re: Retail Firewood Sales what works and what doesn’t
Post by: woodshax on February 19, 2018, 08:23:27 AM
Starmac,

Good points.....to be in the wholesale bundle business ya got to get big and have your product ready and regular for the season.  I don't like the wholesale side for those reasons and there is still a lot of potential profit left to the retail stores.....We stay local and our market specialty retail and will not go over 200 cords a year.....outside our area we have guys who supply the wood and fill the machines so I do not have to worry about expanding bag and bundle  production....just supplementing if they run short during the peak times....Spring and Fall for campers.