Burn Bans?

[Old Greenhorn]

It's funny how your perspective can change on an issue. In my State (New York) we have a ban on open burning from 3/16 to 5/16. In my years of firefighting I welcomed this ban and spread the word far and wide. I also enforced it when we got the calls about somebody burning. I was tired of responding to 'out of control, controlled burns' started by (there is no nicer way to put it) stupid people. many times these simple fires were just a annoyance to put out, but sometimes folks would start a burn pile, then go to town shopping and come home to find their shed gone and the house beginning to burn. Suburbanites don't seem to think very far ahead, apparently. So they start a fire and have no means to extinguish it or control it. They don't think about wind, humidity, Haines index, or any of that stuff. Oh, I could tell you some stories for sure. We needed the law, it was clear. As I type this, I am listening on the fire radio to a neighboring town's fire department working a brush fire that turned into a working structure fire requiring mutual aid and a FAST team. Those guys will have a long night. I have fought wildland fires ranging in size from 200 feet square to 2,000 acres and lasting from 20 minutes to 2 weeks. One nasty fire burned right over a 500' x 500' clear dozed safety zone and would have killed all of us in that area had we not evacuated 10 minutes earlier. The first time that has ever happened in this state in modern history. So yeah, I get it, I really do.
 BUT now here I am taking care of a woodlot and have a LOT of stuff I would like to get on a burn pile as I work through the day. I have a 2,000 gallon pond (10 feet from the burn spot) and a 250 GPM pump and 100' of 1-1/2 hose, and a clear open spot with no canopy to burn in, yet i cannot burn. It is driving me a little crazy. This is 'prime time' for me. The middle of May is not.
 So I am wondering if others have thoughts on burn bans and what the deal is in other states. Do these interfere with your work, or have you found a way to work around, or with the ban? Just trying to open a conversation because I hear some interesting points of view from this group and might learn something I could put to use.
Tom

[lxskllr]

I'm not in the business, but AFAIK, there's only temporary burn bans here during drought, nothing seasonal. I mentioned to someone yesterday, government is a blunt instrument. They have rules that have to apply to everyone at all times whether it makes sense in that particular scenario or not. Leaving the average person to use common sense is asking for issues. I don't particularly care if someone burns their house down by applying stupidity, but their stupidity could affect me, so I guess if your local weather pattern says that more times than not, it's better not to burn during the listed period, I'm ok with that. There's other ways it could be handled, but they come with their own problems. A ban is easy to understand and administer.

[AZ_builder]

It all comes back to warning labels and why California puts "this will cause cancer" on everything. A handful of idiots has sued or done something stupid and ruined it for everyone.

[Brad_bb]

I don't understand why they'd have a complete ban during this period.  This time of year, there is typically a decent amount of rain.  I like to burn when the ground is wet.  I do contain my burns with burn barrels, but you still must take precautions.  After May it gets sketchier because you could have dry periods.  Late summer is a bad time when the grass is dry.  When I have to burn then, I've back burned the grass a good distance around the barrels.

The law should not be a complete ban, but should require attendance and a hefty fine for any fire unattended, and fines and payment for putting out fires that they've allowed to go out of control.  Education should also go along with that, though of course its far from foolproof- literally.  Ban open burning larger than campfire size without notification/permit from local fire district.  Permit should be free but emphasize that permittee have sufficient means to control fire, specify no burn during dry conditions, and fire must be attended at all times.  Permit may require inspection by fire official before issue to ensure sufficiently safe conditions.  If you have a fire near pine trees or combustible ground litter, obviously that's a problem.

Admittedly, When the ground is wet, and I'm burning bark and sawdust in my barrels, It takes time for the coals to dry the bark and dust enough to burn and I will leave the barrels unattended when the ground is wet.  I do watch the barrels from the house though, because I have to go out and add more as they slowly burn down.  They are about 60 yards away.

[Ljohnsaw]

Out here I have to get a burn permit that is good for 2 years.  On it is the guidelines and they go over it with me when they issue it.

I have to call the burn number any day I wish to burn.  My county goes from just north of Sacramento north-east to the Nevada border (above Lake Tahoe).  About 120 miles and an elevation change from about 100' to 7,700'.  There are two zones split about the middle of the county (at about the 6,000' elevation).  Needless to say, quite different topography through out the entire county.  I am at the top end of the west zone.  I may have snow on the ground but because the conditions have dried up on the lower areas, a burn ban will be placed in effect.  There is no set time but typically starts mid-June and lasts "until this notice is updated" - typically after a couple snow storms in November.

So I madly cut and burn when I can finally get into my property in the spring (actually summer).  Then I stockpile my slabs and dig them out of the snow when I can burn in the fall (winter) until they are too buried to get to.

I can have a "warming fire" when it is cold but outside the burn period.  I asked if I could have a barrel fire and they said no, it produces too much smoke and they have to send someone out to check.  I might make one of those turbo barrels this year to use as a "warming fire" to burn up the slabs more efficiently than an open burn pile.  Though, I do like my 8'x8'x6' burn piles!  They sure get going!

[brianJ]

Just Thank our lords in Albany for doing our thinking for us.   You and I as mere subjects are not capable of this.

[SwampDonkey]

Here in N.B. a burn permit, a plan and pre-inspection by forest service officer is required for even a grass fire (Category 4). Too many tree plantations and woods and power lines catch on fire when a grass fire is lit to burn on it's own course while someone goes off doing something else or thinks it's something cute. Now when someone has to come and put out your forest fire or barn fire you caused, they know where to send the bill and fine. When you have to pay, it helps to weed out 'stupid.' Small fires in piles don't need permits or plans (Category 1).

Burning Permits (Fire Season)

[ellmoe]

In Florida you can become a certified "burner" that gives you more flexibility . Burn restrictions have to do with current conditions , not the calendar . 

[rubberfish]

We have a burn ban in effect from the may long weekend until labour day. No exceptions.

[thecfarm]

I can burn any time,if the conditions are right. I do have to go to the fire station and get a burn permit. I think all piles have to be a certain size too. No piles 20 feet high and 250 feet across,just an example,I have no idea. My brush piles most times are only head high 20 feet across. I can understand the date part,but than again... One year I had the garden hose out and was wetting the area down around the stove to boil sap. I only went to the edge of the snow. Than it melted more and more and the garden hose got too much of a bother. This year I have more than a foot of snow on the ground.
I learned from my Father how to burn a field. My field is on a hill. We would start about 75 feet down the field and light that part. When that would burn out,we would go down the field another 75 feet and start another fire. No way would we start at the bottom.  Than brush piles too. I was taught how to have a controlled burn. I bought him a riding lawn mower to mow around the fields. He really like to mow that part. That way the fire could not get into the stone walls. There was nothing for the fire to burn.

[moodnacreek]

The nys. burn moratorium was a deal because the state wanted no burning at all. The problem is that this time of the year we need to burn and it is often wet enough to do so. These rules are made by people who make rules not work. The fools who burn with no sense of what could go wrong ruin it for those that are careful. The trick is to be in the ag. district.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well it IS frustrating, This is a perfect burn time, still a little snow, everything is soaked through, no vegetation growth yet and it's really hard to get mud to burn. Yeah, in NY when the DEC wants to push something through, they find a way. For this one they held hearings, ignored most of the rational arguments against, made few tiny changes and called it a "compromise", then did what they wanted. I was front and center in the middle of one of these DEC scams a few years ago when they wanted to severely limit access to public land. There were a bunch of us who did our homework and learned the science, then spoke at the public hearings, wrote letters etc. We made them look so poorly prepared that they asked for, and got, a private meeting with a couple of us to try to get us to stop speaking. It didn't work. I was interviewed by Radio stations and newspapers who used printed copies of my speaking notes along with my data in their reports. The DEC gave up and trashed the idea after trying for a year. They waited 2 years and snuck it through with no hearings (claimed they already did that). They will get what they want, fairly or otherwise.
 Looks like I am not the only one in this boat. What is bothersome is that I cannot find a full and proper copy of the regulation, just the summarized version the DEC puts out which leaves out a LOT of the details they don't want you to know about, like agricultural burns. But some folks seem to have it a lot worse than us. I guess I just have to wait and hope that we don't have extensions or temporary bans due to fire conditions.

[WDH]

My county has a burn ban from April 1st to October 1st.  Has to do with air quality in the "Atlanta Corridor" even though I am 120 miles South of Atlanta. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Danny,

   I would think if you if you could smoke a few more of those folks out of Atlanta it should be considered a community service. Every time I drive through there I think Sherman had the right idea. :D

[petefrom bearswamp]

I can understand the time period specified in most cases but like old greenhorn, the snow is still on the ground at my mill site in my case 10".
Go 3 miles from my location and the fallow fields are brown with old grass and dry out between rain or snow storms.
Things green up pretty well by the end of the ban period.
Grass fires are not nearly as common as in the past.
However I cannot legally burn my slab pile.
Spontaneous combustion is possible though, seems to have happened twice since the law went into effect in 2009
I too tried to find the entire text of the law, only found  a summary.

[Old Greenhorn]

Here is the best link I could find. You want to click on 215.3. Looks like there is no work-around. One size fits all.

[nybhh]

Hi Tom, I of course deal with this as well.
I know you're a town over from me so I don't know if there is a difference (we're less than 20,000) but I've always felt like there is a fair amount of interpretation in items C, D & F.   As you know, it's pretty secluded up my way but I still try to avoid burning during the window unless:

A) I have a beer in my hand as it is then obviously a recreation campfire!
B) Its cold and I have a beer in my hand as I'm then using the fire to stay warm AND for recreational purpose - it's then obviously a "celebratory bonfire".
C) I do keep it to the steel "recreational fire pit" out by my mill during that period instead of open burning but that thing will go through a lot of wood when it gets going.  

As a former firefighter, you obviously have more experience with this but I believe the burn permit doesn't require you to call in small recreational camp fires so I just try and keep it safe, contained and within what could reasonably be interpreted as such during the March - May window.  Knock on wood, I haven't had any problems - yet  

[moodnacreek]

Well I guess New York's not the only place.  So many freedoms have been lost. It is of no concern for those who don't work the land and even if they started to they won't miss something they never had. Besides the N.R.A. I think all property owners should belong to  the farm bureau. A problem for myself is that I can not operate and follow all the rules.

[Don P]

Ours runs from mid Feb till greenup in mid April. We can burn after 4 pm when winds typically calm and cannot feed the fire after midnight, makes for a long day. If more than 300' from combustibles it is ok so the large cleared sites can burn anytime. I try to do it during or after precipitation. I made quite a pile this afternoon and thought about it but it was just spitting and the breeze kicked up.

[Ljohnsaw]

Ours runs from mid Feb till greenup in mid April.

Your burn ban or burn season?

[Don P]

Our ban runs Feb-April, winter winds dry out the debris that accumulates through the winter, humidity is low and we are brown, by April it is greening up here and much safer so the ban is lifted then.

[Mike W]

Lately it seems our burn bans start right after winter and runs to first snow fall.  Over the last few years we have two seasons, winter and burn ban, possibly a day or two of early spring mixed in there.  In fact last year it was so bad with the fires we had 4 weeks of a UV index of less then 1 throughout July.  the mammoth sun flowers never turned from facing East, just waiting for some sign of sun to follow through the day.  The State brain child's won't let any State or Fed land being disturbed via forestry management, 4 wheel clubs are not allowed to keep trails cleared, nor let anyone disturb these woodlands the least bit.  So with a lightning strike or some idiot in the woods starts a small fire, it quickly rages out of control as no ground crew can gain access from all the overgrown underbrush untouched over the years, no ground crew to cut in fire breaks, fires run uncontrolled.  The philosophy of these brain children is, if they let the locals keep the trails and such clear, someone, somewhere, somehow will inadvertently start a fire somewhere, so no touchy... Well Mother Nature steps in and cleans up after herself, to rid this overburden, I would just like to have a summer again and be able to breath while outside : 

So, our burn ban season is an ever evolving evolution that has lead me to believe we truly have just two seasons now, winter and burn ban..... 

[Dave Shepard]

We have a set burn season, January 15 to,  I think, the end of April. Sometimes extended, or shortened depending on weather. Agricultural burning is year round, weather dependent. I've been ag burning since November. The problem with that is all the busy bodies call the FD or PD to report you. After the busy bodies got educated, the calls stopped. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah, that's a problem, if they even SMELL smoke they call 911. I did a lot of 'investigations' to locate fires after the ban began, sometimes for hours burning a lot of gas only to find somebody with a campfire making coffee.

[SwampDonkey]

A neighbor burned a field one time, walked away from it and it nearly burned our barn down. The guy was lucky that dad never broke his kneck. Mother sure gave him a tongue lashing. :D That is one of the fools that causes laws to be passed on burning around here. Mom's brother was another one. Dad's father had a brain drain moment to, wanted dad to burn the weeds and grass around a barn one time.  Dad never did it either, but grandfather wanted that burned. That was a first. Dad had to just go to the field and work and let it pass. Dad was some mad at the whole idea. I don't think grandfather was thinking straight.  :D