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How to approach loggers?

Started by JoeyLowe, May 08, 2002, 10:25:57 AM

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JoeyLowe

 :D  What is the best way to approach loggers to buy logs?  I have another order to cut some stable boards from oak, but I don't ahve any oak logs.  Any help would be most appreciated.
--
Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

Kevin

J,
Check the phone book for Arborists.
You`ll probably get the logs for free and they might even deliver them.
Scan them for metal though.

JoeyLowe

Thanks Kevin!  I'll give that a try.  However, in the event that I want to buy logs, is the best way to just give them a call cold and let them know that I'm a small sawmill operation or is there a better way?
--
Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

Kevin

I have never bought logs but I know who the loggers are in my area so I would just approach one of them and get a price, if I thought it was reasonable I would just order a truck load.
Just make sure it`s clean!

Jeff

To bad Texas does not have a version of The Timber Buyers Network. If they did you could just contact them on line.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Scott

Also contact any professional Consulting Foresters serving your area. They know most of the loggers and who is working where and cutting what.

I recently lined a person up with a red pine mast for a sailboat that he was building. He wanted to build a mast from a red pine, though spruce is usually more preferred. He got it without much looking.
~Ron

woodman

Were i am the small back yard logers, one to ten logs just drop them off at the mill and say thankyou for taking them off my hands.
Jim Cripanuk

ARKANSAWYER

Joey,
   I have found it best to do it face to face.  I have followed the log truck back empty to the woods and talked to them.  Most loggers are not well educated and frown at  those who look down on them.  They log because that is all that they know and can do.  I have a few in my pocket as I have tried to help them.  I saw out lumber for them at reduced rates or free and I pay the same as the big mills but do my own hauling.  I just need small loads and they need to haul large loads.  So I just go over there with my truck and trailer and they load me up.
   Tree trimmers need to unload logs and the big mills do not want them.  You have to look for metal and get a lot of it.  I take any and all logs that they bring and give them some money for their trouble as most are glad to get rid of it.  They are not a good way to fill orders as there is no telling what will come or when.
   Get you a good logger in you pocket and you will have it made.
  Simple people have simple ways.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

Paul_H

Joey,The best way to approach a logger like myself,is with respect,  and a fair offer.We have a sorting ground and buying station,where anyone is welcome to come and buy a log or a boom.If they want a custom log,we will try to accomodate before the fallers even enter the stand.
Our crew knows to treat everybody that comes to our worksite,politely.Everyone who comes to buy, starts off with the same levell of trust and respect.There are only about three out of thirty customers that we have ever barred from coming back.They are the ones that have not paid their bills.Their name gets around quick!
Logging to most people here is an honourable profession,an education that takes lives and limbs.Most that I know have chosen it,not resigned to it.
ARKANSAWYER,it is always dangerous to tar all with the same brush.With any luck,none of your loggers can read.Otherwise,your log prices just doubled :D

               It's as simple as that! ;D
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Texas Ranger

I have cultivated a few of the small loggers down here, and when I need a few, they fill te bill.  I pay fair, treat them like humans, respect their work, and sell them timber.  I disagree that they are uneducated, some are, but the successful ones know the business and make a living in it.  Flat heads are a different question.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Jeff

You must have a different bunch of Loggers then us Arkansawyer. Thank goodness yours are uneducated and can't read or I would not want to be you.

I find the majority of our loggers to be highly educated not only in their profession, but in all aspects. Many of our Logging Families send more of their children to college then the general populous. Many return to work in the industry they grew up with and learned to love, bringing with them new ideas and new technologies that leads to better management of our renewable and sustainable resource.

From an exert from the Timber Buyers Network:

To compete safely and efficiently today, a professional logger must be up to date on technology and safety, understand and implement the variety of regulations designed to protect natural resources, and manage people effectively--all of which equates to being a good business person.

This is very true in Michigan, and my bet is almost everywhere.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bibbyman

The Arkansawyer can speak for himself but I think I know what he's saying and don't think it he's expounding negatively toward the independent loggers in his area.  He didn't say uneducated,  he said "not well educated".  

My dad attained a seventh grade education but he knew the timber market like a Wall Street broker knows his portfolio of stock.  He worked mostly alone and fell trees, skidded logs, and hauled them for 60 years and never had a serious injury.  He developed a good reputation in our area for being fair and honest and doing good work with minimum damage to the land and other trees.   Many of the farmers with large land holdings in our area trusted him exclusively to manage their woodlots.  This worked to their mutual benefit because he would selectively harvest the timber with the current market and the future in mind. (What a novel idea!)  Over his forty plus years,  he cut timber on many of the places about once every couple of years. I wish he could pass his skills and work ethics down to the next generation of loggers and others in the forest industry.

Conversely,  I have had experiences with a few (I said few – not all! So save your tar!) educated,  professional foresters in high administrative positions that had no practical experience or aptitude to the trade that I could tell.  I've also dealt with some so-called loggers who's most expensive piece of equipment they have is their chain saws and their goal is to get enough money to stop by the Quick Stop for a 24 pack of the cheapest beer available on the swing back home.  They log largely because they are otherwise unemployable or no other employment is available.  

We've been trying to work with some of the full-time loggers for the past couple of years but they were always too busy to deal with our little Mom and Pop operation.  But this winter the log market went flat in our area.  We bought far more logs than we needed from these couple of local loggers in the hopes of developing some relationship (and respect).  Each load they would thank us for taking their logs so they could pay bills, etc.  I just hope they remember that when we call and need a couple of load of logs and they have other markets.  

A good logger in you pocket is a good thing! 8)

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

ARKANSAWYER

   Boys I will wear my tar as needed but I think that some confused "not well" with "un" educated.  I was asking that they be treated with respect and that they be honored for what they do.  It is very hard and dangerous work.  Talk face to face with them (no phone call, they are worth your time to go and see) in the woods and you may learn something if you will listen.  Most "loggers" in my area are as the one described by Bibbyman and could not hold a steady job and log when the rent is due or the beer is gone.  You can not depend on them and a small mill will go under wainting on the next load.
  Paul-H If I offended you I am very sorry.  I was asking that respect be given to Loggers.
  I see very few younger people in the woods unless it is those who need beer money.  Are we going to see a shortage of loggers in the near furture?  Solomon has been a logger for 50+ years and I do not see the kids taking over the family business.  I donot worry about him reading this as I do not think he can read very many printed words.  He can read timber and knows it's worth as well as the land on which it stands.  I, with my college education, have learned a great deal from him.
  It takes the Good Lord many years to produce a tree and a man with a chain saw a few seconds to fell it.  It is those few seconds that can determin the worth of the time invested into the tree.  I can tell alot about the man with the chain saw when the  timber gets to the saw deck.  Solomon is a good man.
ARKANSAWYER  
  
ARKANSAWYER

Paul_H

Never at any point did I want anyone to be tarred.My dad,who's dad was a hand faller,and worked hard to raise his 4 kids in the Depression,was told by his teacher,"you're going to end up being nothing but a logger".

Teacher was right.He was a DanG good one too.He topped and rigged Spar trees for other companies,and then his own with his partner.We would wait for him in the driveway to come home at the end of the day.Dirty and sweaty,he was a great sight for our young eyes.If we caused any problems for mum that day it gave us a chance to give him the "facts" first.
I wanted to be a logger from a young age.I have never looked back.
You are right about few young loggers.At 39 I'm the youngest on the crew.Carl,who was a couple years younger,Crushed his foot last year.Doc says he won't log again.
I grew up working alongside a few "Solomon's" so I can understand your respect for him.
Bibbyman,The more local mills we can supply the better.I think your loggers will come around.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Tom

I hate to get involved in  conversation about status or societal levels, but have been thinking  about the perceptions assumed here and feel strongly to add what I have learned.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist home by a lesser educated farm girl whose primary interest in life was the caring of her family.  She went to school but had no degrees.  To follow her resume would make most of the current society look down upon her as being below their peer level.

Quite to the contrary, though, she was well read with her favorite book being the Bible.  She would tell stories of her childhood and life as interestingly as if she had a writing degree.   She cared for her husband (who could do no wrong) and raised her family of one son and two daughters to be self sufficient and morally successful.  She was a pillar in her church and could cook meals from little scraps that would put many a chef to shame.  Her house was her castle and her family, her whole life.  She never screamed at, profaned, or belittled anyone.

She was married to a self educated man who had on his resume, Editor and owner of the local newspaper, logger, teacher, railroad man, lawyer and Judge.  Neither ever had anything really bad to say about anyone but warned us of those who were morally astray and taught us that we were only as good as the company we kept.

On his mantle in his County Judge's office was a picture of his father, and stuck in the corner was a business card sized piece of paper on which was typed, " The Greatest Man I Ever Knew".  On the reverse it read, "Any Man who loves his God and enjoys life, is not a failure.".

He taught me one thing about communication to be summed up in this one statement.  "Learn to speak on the level of the person with whom you are talking; never talk down to anyone, they don't like it. Try not to talk up to anyone, it makes you subservient.  Communication is the object of conversation. If the person you are speaking to doesn't understand what you said, then you have wasted your time".

Education is important to succeed in life but we have come to associate education with Institutions of higher learning. That can be a fallacy.  College doesn't make the man.  I have worked for men who wouldn't have a non-college educated person working for them because they feel that finishing a college measures an individuals ability accomplish tasks. Then when they get off of work they take there car to the local  Technical School Educated Mechanic to get it fixed and brag about how good he must be to be able to fix these modern marvels.  He then goes to a restaurant for supper because his home has no kitchen, a movie for entertainment because he knows know one to consider a friend and then finishes off the night at a bar where he hopes he will meet someone that will recognize his status in life.  

In the mean time his kids have come home from their Country Day School, turn on the TV or Playstation until the Nanny has sent them to bed.  They are pasty white have no muscle tone, don't respect authority, have no peers, have never been dirty nor ever been challenged.  They may see their mother for breakfast the next morning, ...or not.

When one knows and works with a man, he learns the man's short-comings and strong points.  That man's education has to do with what he has studied, be it felling a tree or arguing in court.  Neither makes one better than the other if they keep  their Morals high.

The criteria we use to judge others is indicative of what we believe our status and station in life to be.  It can be, upon introspection, a dangerous and humbling thing. When we alienate ourselves from a specific group of individuals, we should all double check our assumed peer station.  Should it be "formal" education that decides our status, or would we be better off measuring our station with honesty and morality being the mark?

How do you talk to a logger? Just like you might to your brother, I'd say.  His education may be different from yours and you must be the judge of his sincerity. We all know something different from the other, that's what makes the world turn.  Don't make the assumption that the person you are speaking with is more or lesser a man than you, you may be surprised.  

There are many "college educated" individuals working with their hands and still many high school educated individuals who own successful companies  You may find yourself talking down to a man who owns half the county, holds two doctorates, has been a county commissioner, is the deacon in his church and a philanthropist in his life style only because you assumed he was below your station when he showed up on site with a beat up pickup, a chainsaw and dirty clothes with work gloves hanging out of his back pocket.

Well, that's my two cents and not meant to challenge any of the posts above.  It just represents my "learning" and how I try to present myself to the world.

That made me feel pretty good to say that!

I have a picture on my wall of a man that I respect, and on a little piece of paper stuck to the frame is typed.  "The greatest man I ever knew".  On the reverse it reads " No man is a failure who loves his God and is enjoying life."  So, you see, I have learned something.


Ron Wenrich

Seems to me that there is two different types of education.  Book learning and experience.  Neither one is a very good indication of how well they can apply it.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

JoeyLowe

 :)

Thanks for the many replies.  My reason for asking is simple.  I was approached by a local lumberyard that needed some oak 2 x 10's and oak 2 x 12's cut for use in a large horse stable.  The quantity is around 100 each.  It takes a mighty large tree to cut that those sizes and it takes a lot of trees to obtain that quantity.  Well, I thought I had enough of both, but as it turns out, I'm about 32 boards light.  I have made to partial deliveries to the lumberyard, but now the lumberyard owner has taken the position that I won't be paid until the order is complete.  His reasoning is that he won't collect from us customer until the order is complete, thus he can't pay me.  Now he's not being a jerk about it and I did commit to filling the order, so I need more logs.

I called all six loggers listed in our yellow pages and none have returned my calls.  All I said was that I am a new small sawmill operation interested in buying logs and I left my name and number.

So this is my dilemma.  How bout some of you more experienced loggers and sawmill operators teach me how to get out of this one without losing my shirt.

Thanks in advance! 8)
--
Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)

Ron Scott

Maybe place an add in the local area newspaper in addition to the previous ideas mentioned.

Just keep calling the loggers. Not all are in the yellow pages, find out who the other and maybe smaller jobers are. The yellow page guys are often the busiest with bigger things.

All loggers are usually very busy and not always timely in returning their telephone calls. Catch them early in the morning or late evenings or give their wife the message.

Once you make a good contact and note their reliablity and good work keep in touch with them.

~Ron

Bibbyman

Someone asked a bank robber why he robbed banks,  he said because that was where the money was.  ;)

You may try going around to other sawmills and seeing if you can buy a few logs from them.  Sometimes they get logs that don't fit their operation very well and would be willing to sell you a few.  We have bought logs from a small mill south of us and have sold a few logs.  Naturally,  they need to make something on them so by the time you give them a little profit, you'll probably lose any profit you may make but if it completes the order then that will be good.

Like the Arkansawyer said,  look for log trucks and follow them back to their landing or home base.  We've not had good luck getting deals made with loggers over the phone.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Bud Man

I prefer all dealings or solicitations of this sort be eye to eye , guess I'm a dinosaur in the times we now live. To me a logger or anyone else will look at a phone call message from an unknown individual as a distraction and not a sustainable long term asset, where an eye to eye meeting gives one a chance to develop a meaningful dialogue and develop a rewarding relationship to both parties.  Also I read Arkansawyer's iniatial post twice and found nothing derrogatory within, quite the opposite, while some of the replies reminded me of  grade school gossip where a meaningless sentence turns 180 degrees and looses all context.  " Let's Be Cordial Folks "
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

timberbeast

Joey,  try and find out where they are cutting and go there around noon and ask where the boss man is.  Introduce yourself and tell him what you need.  He may say he can't help you,  but then again,  he might point you toward a pile of logs and say "Pick what you need' and give you a cash price,  and it will probably be pretty cheap,  unless you look like a sucker.  Act the same way that you would act if you were asking permission to hunt at a farmer's place,  these guys rarely return phone calls from people they don't know,  and work sunup until sundown most days and are very proud.  You could be dissapointed,  or you could make a lifelong friend,  nothing ventured,  nothing gained.  Might even find a guy interested in what YOU do,  if you're interested in what HE does,  and he might just save you a log here and there.  Got a guy near my mill,  every once in awhile when I go up,  there will be a really nicely figured Maple log or a couple of Cedar logs at the side of the driveway.  He's too big to do any cutting on the 160 acres I have,  but he likes me,  so he does this at times,  and even volunteered to come out and help me make a skid trail a couple times.  He won't admit to the logs,  just kinda smiles when I ask him,  and,  yes,  on the rare occasions that he stops by,  he brings cheap beer.  He works all year in the woods six days a week,  supports his family and also supports a crew of men who don't pass muster if they can't pull their load in the swamp.  If he wants to get half-stewed on his day off with a kindred spirit,  what of it?
For what it's worth,  i don't think Ark meant anything derogatory either,  but my hackles rose a bit.  I'm not educated in the least formally,  but I'll tell ya one thing,  I can get by on my own far easier than what I see coming out of Grad School at the present time.  Seems to me that they are more interested in teaching one WHAT to think rather than HOW to think.  I have a cousin who logs for beer money,  when he has enough,  he gets drunk until it's gone.  Pretty *DanG sad,  but he can always get work,  because he is a guaranteed 100 sticks on the forwarder every day, alone.  Not many people can do that with an old Lombard and a can of snuff,  'specially when they're over 60. ::)  We're all different.......
Where the heck is my axe???

ARKANSAWYER

Joey,
  Are there any more small mills like yours in the area?  There are 3 with in 10 miles of me and we have learned to help each other.  (It might be that we are all part of the "Orange Team")  That includes filling each others orders or helping locate logs.  So far it has kept each other out of the others way and in business.  Also we hhave an inside line on loggers and business deals.
  Face to face is the way to conduct business and a hand shake with a man's word still seals the deal here.  Get off the phone and get into the woods.  Go to the large mills and see whats up.  Pallet places here do not care for big logs as they are sit up for trash.  The hard wood mills dislike pine and let it go cheap when it comes in.  The cedar mills do not like any thing but cedar.  You may be able to help them out but they will want to look at you.
  I feel alot of times that if a person will not take the time to come and see me they are not earnest in their effort.

 A side note;  Yesterday on the NEWS I saw that the two bottom jobs for the future (ie lowest paying/ hardest work) was cowboys and lumber jack.  
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

Tom

I didn't read any grade school gossip, but did sense some hurt feelings. Sometimes folks mis-speak and sometimes things are said to be just downright mean.  The best way to clear the air is to communicate your feelings and arrive at an understanding.  Sometimes someone must "back-up" and I saw instances of that here.

The unfortunate thing that I see on some other sites is the urge to "pile on" and to "drive a tack with a sledge hammer".   We have been very fortunate on the Forestry Forum to not have drawn a membership that is concerned with hurting anyone and most of the few threads that contain a confrontation have been settled amicably within a few posts.  

Cordiality is alive and well on The Forum.

woodmills1

I may be old :D :D
but *DanG i look good :D :D
cordiality must be how some guys sell their firewood :D :D




James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Paul_H

Joey,I think all of the above is good advice.It's hard to totally understand what you're up against,because I think we have a completly different system here.Both ARKANSAWYER,and Bibbyman are from your neck of the woods,and know the tricks of the trade.What they, and Timberbeast suggested would work well here with us.If you have further trouble locating loggers,talk to a saw shop or a fuel oil bulk plant.The ones here know all the gyppo loggers.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

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