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The Spotted Owl Again

Started by Gary_C, February 29, 2012, 11:48:52 AM

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Ron Scott

Wildlife Officials Weigh an Ethical Dilemma: Killing Barred Owls to Benefit Spotted Owls

The Oregonian (February 28) - Federal wildlife officials in charge of protecting the northern spotted owl will release today a long-awaited environmental impact statement that lays out alternatives for killing barred owls, a larger, more aggressive, and more adaptive species that has displaced spotted owls through much of their range in Oregon, Washington, and northern California.

Officials acknowledge the ethical dilemma of killing one species to benefit another. However, they point to an ongoing experiment on private land in northern California that has shown spotted owls returned to historic territories in every instance where barred owls were removed.

The E-Forester
~Ron

Silver_Eagle

Mike;

It sure is a small world, my father was a timber faller for the sidewinder on Hafer's crew. That is the line machine Monte ran forever. Dad cut for the GT3 machine also all threw my high school year's. I cut for the sidewinder with Dad over there in the early 90's, great job except when we where 4,000 feet in some deep dark hole, the walk out at night's where never fun lol. Brian, the hook tender over on the sidewinder went to work for Rogue Timber out of wallowa Or. after Hafer shut down, he is about 6'8" tall and could pack 4 roll's of hay wire at a time lol. He is a monster but a great guy. Ask Monte about Brian next time you see him, they worked together forever. A great bunch of true men for sure. What a small world indeed. Monte not only know's the mechanic's of a carrige, he is a great yarder engineer.

Bob;

I have been in Texas since 03' full time. We moved here building road's and pipeline work after finishing our contract on the ORCAL water duct pipeline. I hated to leave home in the later 90's but all the slow down's forced us younger generation out pretty much. Still a mega knot in my stomach over it but most of us my age group had to leave to work or stay and starve. Texas has been extremely good to my family but I sure miss the mountain's. Alot of Timber here in East Texas, good cattle pasture, fishing, people, school's, football, sport's etc. but hard to replace the mountain's, hunting, snowmobiling, friend's, culture at home.   

Bob, did you know Vince or Bob from the Lagrande BC yard or Ed with Kinzua? 

BaldBob

Quote from: Silver_Eagle on March 02, 2012, 11:24:21 PM
Bob, did you know Vince or Bob from the Lagrande BC yard or Ed with Kinzua?

I worked very closely with Vince for about 30 years. We retired at the same time when the company offered all of us old farts an attractive early retirement package - he as Logging Superintendent and me as Chief Forester. I knew all of the people in the La Grande yard, at least 2 of whom were named Bob, so I'm not sure which one you are referring to. I do remember an Ed from Kinzua, but I'll be darned if I can remember his last name. I may well have met you as I was on Hafer's jobs on numerous occasions - early in my career when I was a logging supervisor, and then later whenever he was working on company land.

Silver_Eagle

Bob;

Ed Tarnisky was the resource manager for Kinzua is who I was speaking of above. I logged for him before they shut down. He was a great guy to work for. Bob Barton was the timber buyer for BC I was speaking of, he bought a few sales we had over balm creek behind medical spring's area out of Union. We did the cutting, loading and hauling on some job's for carson helicopter's and he was on those job's also. I rode snowmobiles with Vince's son and worked on his snowmobiles in the winter sometimes. Also rode sled's with Randy Botham who logged for you guy's forever as you know. I didn't know alot of the BC guy's when I cut for Hafer, I was by far his youngest log cutter on the line machine sides, we where also alway's off in some hole cutting and usually didn't see to many guy's either than a few forest service guy's once in awhile awhile down there, John Sumoniac was one I recall.  Brian the hook tendor usually alway's took care of the pre job's for our side but I bet you know my Dad though, Larry Cadwell. Probably know my brother Mace who own's Bronson lumber and Royal Rock. I met most of the buyer's and logging guy's once I stopped cutting log's and started my own logging/road building Co. Mark  Larson for Rogue over in Wallowa was there Resource manager when I was at home. He was a great guy to work for and sell log's to. We did the job right behind there mill when Carson helicopter's flew those log's right into the pasture right behind there log yard there at Rogue in Wallowa. That was a fun job. There where 5 sales all together but the one right behind there log yard was awesome, lot of good wood and right on top of there log yard, we buried the scaler's in about an hour the first morning ;D. Remember that wood bridge that went across the minam river right before you get into Wallowa? We hauled hundred's of load's over that scary old thing on that job. Thank God I was the loader man there  :D and not in a truck.   

We did some work with Jack Baremore logging also, I went to High School with his youngest daughter. That was the hardest working man I have ever met, he would live on his log loader. I don't know how he did it. Hardly ever slept. We alway's thought he was a grouchy ol fart in school but once I got the green out from behind my ear's in the wood's, he was one man that I totally respected. He taught me alot about moving alot of wood with little equipment fast. Jack was a prince of a man. The first piece of land and timber I bought on my own right after I left cutting for Hafer's sidewinder line machine, I cut it and Jack loaded and hauled it. He bet me a pepsi when he showed up with the loader and skidder that he would have me caught by the end of the week if I didn't get another cutter to come help me. I said your on and no way you will ever catch me. I was young could hold my own at that time with the fast log cutter's, beside's it was flat ground and not some cliff wall like we always' got on the sidewinder. Pepsi in the bag was what I thought, well I was burning close to 3 gallon's of gas a day through hopped up 288 at the time and let me tell you, when I finished that small sale, Jack's skidder operator, Greg which was a senior in high school when I was a freshman, was right on my rear lol. I limbed to the landing that night. He laughed his tail off at me and we sat on the log deck and B.S for awhile  :-\. I didn't bet him ever again  :D I still to this day don't know if he knew how bad I was hurting after cutting 14 day's straight like a long haired wild man  ;D. I didn't even stop at pondosa store that night on the way in to get a drink  :D     

This thread sure has brought back alot of great memories. I really miss those day's. Will alway's be the best memories of my life I'm sure. I loved logging, the people and the mountain's. Almost bring's a tear to my eyes.   

I'm Tony by the way.

BaldBob

Tony,
Yes lots of great memories. I really miss La Grande. The only man I ever saw who could outdo Jack Barremore on a loader was Jerry Clark. That man would have a cigarette in one hand, a cup of coffee in the other, and still load a truck faster than any other operator I ever saw. Yes I knew your father though not well. Same for Ed Tarnisky. I can't say that I can place Bob Barton (though my memory is no longer the greatest) but we did have a log buyer named Ed Barton (He died less than a year ago). BTW that bridge was across the Wallowa not the Minam. We had a wooden bridge across the Minam ( taken out by a flood in the late 90's), but it was surrounded by BCC land & wouldn't have served any other properties.

terry f

      Bob, it is a small world. I doubt we know any of the same people, but if you did any of the cuts on horseshoe ridge near meacham, you probably walked my fence line.

Silver_Eagle

Bob;

Ed Barton, that was the name. For some reason I was thinking Bob. And yes the bridge was the Wallowa, it was the one just before you break out of the canyon before you get to the town of Wallowa going over the minam grade. Didn't the Wallowa river connect with the minam river at the bottom of the grade? Your memory is better than mine  ;D. If recall correctly, Dad and his cutting partner Mike cut a job for Hafer's GT3 line machine and the log's came over the bridge your speaking about. It might have been a winter cat job, that was back when I was in high school and I remember dad talking about it when we where logging that job for Carson Helicopter's on the Rogue timber. +

I think Jerry was driving truck when I got out of high school, I helped Dick Clark on a job one winter after we got snowed out cutting for Bob Zacharias. I ran into him in Joseph at a store the day me and my log cutting partner finished that job, he had a tree length cat ground job going over on tolgate and needed help in his landing bad. We went and helped him finish that job. If I recall, Jerry was driving truck but that has been a long time ago  :D.  Yes, Jack was very good on a loader, he always had small older machines also. I still to this day don't know how he could load so fast and smooth. Load a load of junk lodge pole faster than most guys' could load a good load of saw log's  :D, including me  :D. I finally got a track mount 4300 link belt and then could compare to him but not apples to apples at all. Although all that loading sure made it easy to switch to track hoe's later on  ;D. I might give Jack a run for his money today on a track hoe but I would never bet him a pepsi again  :D. When we went home for graduation last spring, my brother told me Jack had passed on as well. I hadn't seen Jack for probably 8 year's prior.

When I call Dad this afternoon, I'm going to share with him the conversation within this thread. He still lives in Island City. He will enjoy the memories as well.

Have a great day. 

     

Mike_M

Tony,
         I will ask Monte when I talk to him again. I don't know how many Sidewinder yarders they made, but one of the local equipment dealers had one for sale not long ago. Looks like a pretty nice yarder.

Ron,
       That exact same article was in local paper today about the plan with the Barred Owls. I suppose the second part of their plan will be to shoot us loggers :D if killing the Barred Owls don't work. Leave it to the Federal Goverment. I continue to lose confidence everyday with those Bafoons.

Mike_M

Tony,
        I forgot to ask if you know Mike Wiedeman(sp?). I beleive he owns BTO logging out of LaGrande. My dad knows him from AOL(Associated Oregon Loggers). He had a write up a few years back in Loggers World Magazine. That is some awesome country in Eastern Oregon. Long span skyline layouts look pretty common in that area with very small landing/loading areas. Love sharing these connections with my Dad. He is 71 and about as retired as he will every be. Comes out on the job and runs log loader now and then, looks things over, and then goes home for a nap. I look up to anyone who has made their living outside!

BaldBob

Tony,
I think the bridge you are talking about is the one diagonally across from Minam store at the bottom of the grade. Its about 100yds upstream on the Wallowa from where the Wallowa and Minam join. It actually has steel framing but a wooden deck. but was also not rated for 80k lb loads.  We put bracing under that bridge anytime we hauled over it. I seem to remember Hafer having a GT3 job that hauled across that bridge. If I remember right, part of that job also hauled across a wooden bridge we had  about a mile upstream on the Minam. There are other wooden bridges across the Wallowa between Minam store and the town of Wallowa (which is 8-10 mi upstream from the Minam junction) but to my knowledge, none of them ever had logs hauled over them.
Mike,
I knew Mike Weideman. He is quite the activist on forestry issues.
Terry,
I'm quite sure that I've been on your fence line, though probably before you owned the land. The winter of 1975, I ran and marked many of the company's property lines in the Meacham area. I've probably been near it in more recent times, but most likely on a weekend while picking Morels.

Silver_Eagle

Mike;

I know of BTO but I don't know them well. There was a log cutter who worked for them for year's that I knew but I don't know Mike. We did a contract loading and hauling job out on coyote ridge north of Joseph OR. where they where off line logging in some hole. There truck's where boiling out of there also. I was thinking BTO was from Joseph or Enterprise but maybe they are in Lagrande now. I think they where a pretty good size Company.

Yes, that sidewinder was a nice yarder for sure. It would move alot of wood and when I was around that machine cutting it usually did not draw real choice sales. Long long set's and some of the timber was not real thick either, scatterd crap. Not alway's but it got it's fair share and would still move alot of wood. That crew was very good on that machine. We did a job on Tolgate that was very nice I remember, thick white fir and some spruce, many 3 and 4 footer's back to back. Good timber but had to hump to cut 100 log's on that job for the size  :D. I remember many day's there that I would burn 2 full gallon's of gas and not get a 100 log's  :-\.

Monte will chuckle when you ask him about Brian I'm sure. I don't know how many year's those two worked with each other but it was a long time. Really good guy's to work around for sure and very good at what they did. There is another guy there at Eagle I was thinking of the other night, Wayne. I don't know if he is still there, that was back in the 90's. He grew up there locally as well. He welded a set up cable log trailer bunk's to a solid set for me one afternoon to get me out of a bind  ;D. Very good welder, I knew him forever but didn't know he could weld that good. I had been putting that off and he fixed it in like two hour's  :D. Your in good hand's with Eagle that is for sure, the thing's are bullet proof it seem's. I have seen those carriges get dropped, drug threw rocks with no lift, etc. and just keep ticking along. No one ever tried to hurt one but you know how it is on some set's. Just don't always' go right. r

Mike the logger or logging company I was trying to remember that we logged by over by halfway Or. I have been trying to remember all weekend, I think it was Fibb's logging, does that ring a bell? They where logging about 30 miles out of Halfway/pine eagle area on that one timber sale I'm speaking of, about 8 million feet if I remember right. Good size job. I don't know if that is the right name for sure, I tried to call my old log cutting partner, he worked for them on that job but he is no longer in the area either.   

Bob;

I remember the bridge right there at the store or just up from the minam store. The one I'm speaking of is torward wallowa, up the river before you get into wallowa. That is the bridge that was used when we did the heli job for Rogue. One of the sales back in there anyway.   



   

BaldBob

Tony,
If its the wooden bridge that crosses at Trump's cabin (which seems to fit your description) I can't imagine hauling logs across it. I do however seem to remember some helicopter logging on the South side of the river above Trump's  cabin. I sold the larch logs to Trump for the stringers for that bridge & he wouldn't follow my recommendation to use logs large enough to haul over. In fact I offered to provide the large enough logs for free and build the bridge in exchange for a right-of-way across his property, but he wasn't interested. He still held a deep seated hatred for the company from when they bought the old mill in Wallowa some 20 or 30 years previously, and then shut it down. The other wooden bridge, about a mile closer to Wallowa, has about the same size stringers. However, the road to it on the South side of the river goes right next to Smejkl's(sp) house and winds tightly around his barn, so I don't think its that one.

Silver_Eagle

Bob;

Jump on google maps, find Minam Or. Then go up river toward Wallowa, just past the rest area in the canyon find Water canyon. There she be..........   

BaldBob

Tony,
That would be the Smejkl bridge. I can understand why there would be a high pucker factor crossing it with a fully loaded log truck. On Google earth I can make out a road heading away from his house toward where the logging occurred.

Silver_Eagle

It wasn't fun  :D. I had a bad feeling that whole time we where up that canyon. When you follow that road up the canyon on google, take that first spur up the hill, then up on top they flew some of those short draw's right up on top also. I didn't have a front end loader then, we had Ron over at Gilmer logging bring there's up to that job to pack from the drop to the loader and coiler's. Ron grew up with my dad, he told me we where nut's when he came out to service there machine  :D over that bride. I couldn't remember the name of the canyon till I got online to look and then recalled water canyon. I'm going to try to get ahold of Ron this weekend to see if he remember's that sale we did up there. I shot my first buck with Ron up lad canyon one morning, trent his son and I where buddies till he moved to Arizona with his mom. I think Ron still mechanic's for Gilmer logging last I heard.   

Overlength

I worked in a LP mill in the high Sierra's northern Cal in the early 80's. Plumas County. Best time of my life. Worked there 2 years and the mill shut down. Spotted Owl, Canadian competition,etc. Third generation workers lost jobs forever. Anyway, I go back every year to gold prospect and enjoy the beautiful country.  Now the forest is either a thicket, the trees are growing 3 ft apart, underbrush all over the place, or it is a wasteland competely burned to the ground. How surprising.
Woodmizer LT30, Solar Kiln 400 bf

Silver_Eagle

Overlength;

I have ran across people all over the states with similar stories, I left Oregon later than alot of people in the industry that I know. The carnage that was caused by the political owl debacle along with the NAFTA agreement is just a shame in my opinion. Just destroyed a class of people that is second to none in my opinion. Still to this day I have a knot in my stomach for the issue, the stupidity that prevailed over the rural population's vote and voice. I still believe the true environmentalist live and worked within the industry. They are the voice with knowledge and boot's on the ground that still should be heard.

I am personally so thankful that I have found The Forestry Forum, not only for the knowledge that is shared here on a daily basis but to actually see there are people out there still all over this great land operating and sharing there experiences.  ;D 

colinofthewoods

this whole owl thing is such a mess !  I get lots of barred owls at my cabin.  I never hear them in the old growth , only in the 40 year old regen.

trying to target one owl to save another is crazy,   I remeber a while back here on the island they were actually killing eagles trying to protect marmots !

this thread reminded me a shirt I used to see some fallers wearing at the bar years back.  it read " save the trees , whipe your a$$ with an owl "

Ron Scott

Below is a link to a commentary by Dean Jim Huffman explaining the ESA double standard.
>
> http://nwfreepress.com/a-tale-of-two-birds/jim-huffman/
~Ron

Ron Scott

Proposed Rule: Revised Critical Habitat for the Northern Spotted Owl

The Federal Register, Published by the Fish and Wildlife Service, March 8th
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) proposes to revise the designated critical habitat for the northern spotted owl (Strix occidentalis caurina) under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended (Act). Consistent with the best scientific data available, the standards of the Act, our regulations, and agency practice, we have initially identified, for public comment, approximately 13,962,449 acres (ac) (5,649,660 hectares (ha)) in 11 units and 63 subunits in California, Oregon, and Washington that meet the definition of critical habitat. To read more of this article link to:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/03/08/2012-5042/endangered-and-threatened-wildlife-and-plants-revised-critical-habitat-for-the-northern-spotted-owl


~Ron

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