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Time to harvest/replant, lots of questions

Started by Mongo, August 21, 2002, 12:59:40 AM

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Mongo

Hi all,

Looks like a great forum here, and I'm hoping I can get some good advice :)  I have lot's of questions, so let me thank you in advance if you manage to even read them all, let alone answer some of them!

Back on the "family farm" in Maine, there are about 20 acres of Norway Pine that were set out back in the 50s and are ready for harvest. I would like to replant with hardwoods mostly.

Ok, now for the long laundry list of questions... :)

1) Is there much of a market for Norway Pine?

2) We're about 20 miles from the coast of Maine. Native hardwood species include oak, maple, birch (white and yellow), poplar (that count as a hardwood?) Elm (before it was all killed off due to dutch elm disease) Would it be better to try and plant 1-2 species, or to try and get a greater variety of seedlings?

3) Do you know if walnut, chestnut, or other higher desirable woods will grow in Maine's climate?

4) Would it be possible to plant the trees a little closer together then what they'd eventually need, and do a selective harvest in about 25-30 years (IE, when I hope to retire.) Would these species of trees grow enough in 25-30 years that I would be able to use the lumber?

5) I don't expect to be able to harvest fully grown trees in my lifetime (I'm 30) but what kind of time frame would be required for them to grow to full size? Is this a legacy I'd be leaving for my children, or for my great-great grandchildren?

6) Regarding chestnut, I once found the web page of an organization that supplied chestnut seedlings, does anyone happen to know it? Also, where could I find a source for dutch elm disease resistant varieties of Elm?


Again, thank you very much for any assistance you can provide in answering these. Are there any other questions I should be asking?


Bro. Noble

Mongo,

You might read the thread on Should I Plant Pines or Hardwoods.
Somewhere there is a thread on deer damage to seedlings.
 
Welcome to this forum, you have come to a good place.

Noble
milking and logging and sawing and milking

Ron Wenrich

Let's see if I can help a little bit.  Most of my experience has been a little farther south than Maine, so I may be off base a little as far as growth goes.

Norway Pine?  I believe you mean Norway spruce.  Very limited market, and only locally.  The problem is the persistance to retain limbs.  I've sawed some, and it wasn't a really enjoyable experience.

Poplar?  Tulip poplar or aspen?  In my area, there is no aspen market.  Tulip poplar is stretching the range up there, and probably wouldn't do too well.  Aspen is a fast growing pioneer species which would be good for pulp (if there are any pulp mills left in Maine).

I've never planted hardwoods, with the exception of walnut.  We usually go for natural regeneration.  If I was to plant, I would go with a mixture of several species.  One reason is if you have a monoculture (one species stand), you are leaving yourself open to one disease or insect wiping you out.

The other is economic.  Oak and maple have 2 different types of markets.  When oak is hot, then maple is down.  When maple is hot, then oak is down.  You can kind of beat the markets by having both species growing.

In your area, white pine is also a pretty good wood.  It gets those real nice red knots that make good lumber.  The price isn't as good as oak, but you get better growth and can grow more trees/acre than with hardwoods.  Pines can also grow on more marginal soils than hardwoods, and still retain the quality.

I believe you are too far north to consider chestnut.  There are seedlings available, but they are not disease resistant.  Disease resistant species are still about 5-10 years away.

You're also too far north for walnut.  However, black cherry should be able to grow in that area.  Cherry markets are always pretty strong.  

Planting close together is an okay idea, but you must realize that you will have to do some non-commercial thinnings to maintain tree growth.  Close planting will encourage natural pruning and taller, straighter main stems.  

Rule-of-thumb for northern hardwooods is about 1" diameter growth for every 4 years.  Younger trees will grow a little faster than that, older trees will grow slower.  Tree spacing and growing conditions will dictate how fast a tree will grow.  Trees must have room for crown expansion to put on diameter growth.  That is why thinnings become necessary, to allow crop trees to grow.

In my area, the state runs on about a 75 year rotation.  You may be looking more at a 100-125 year rotation.  So, your forest is going to be a legacy forest, as long as someone doesn't want to build a house in the middle of it.

You can have several thinnings before a final harvest.  This yields some income, but in the early years you are looking at either pulp or firewood.

Before planting, you should see your county extension agent.  He can assist in tree selection for the area, and possibly seedling sources.  

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Brian_Bailey

Hey Ron,  Norway Pine is just good ole Red Pine ( Pinus resinosa Ait.).
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Jeff

Nope Wrong. It sure aint.
Norway Spruce
Picea abies (L.) Karsten
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Corley5

The old timers around here, my Grandpa included, always called red pine Norway pine.  I'm not saying it's correct but that's what they called it.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Jeff

Now that I read that again, my answer is, Norway Spruce is not norway pine. :)

I do not doubt that Red Pine has several regional names.

Example. Popple. What the heck is Popple? Aspen at our mill.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Bro. Noble

milking and logging and sawing and milking

Jeff

A brown noser?

If its a tree, I would guess hmmm... I dunno :-[
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Mongo

Sorry for the confusion. the family has called thm Norway Pines forever, but yes, they are actually Red pine.

Found a state webpage that showed red pine sold for about $45 / MBF

Brian_Bailey

Jeff B,

 I don't mean this post to be confrontational, but my earlier post is correct. Also Norway Pine is not a regional name for Red Pine either.  The Peterson field guide to Trees and Shrubs by George Petrides,  Grolier's field guide to N. American Trees by Thomas Elias, and Knowing Your Trees by G.H. Collingwood and Warren D. Brush published by The American Forestry Association all back me up on this.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Ron Wenrich

My Textbook of Wood Technology does not recognize Norway pine.  However, my Textbook of Dendrology by Harlow and Harrar does have this note under red pine:

"Through the Lake states, red pine is widely known as 'Norway pine'.  The term 'Norway' as applied to this tree is unfortunate, to say the least, since it is a native American species.  It is said that early explorers mistook it for Norway spruce, and also that it grew in abundance near the town of Norway, Maine; hence in each case the application of this name."

That is why foresters refer to the species as pinus resinosa.  Aspen is populus tremuloides or populus grandidentata.  A lot less confusion when talking to people in different areas.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I guess we were referring to and looking at 2 different parts of this thread, I was looking at Rons Post where he was talking about Norway spruce. I then assumed you were calling Norway spruce red pine.

I did not know that Red Pine is called Norway Pine. But I do know that Norway Spruce is NOT red Pine.

I agree your post is correct, as is mine. :)

Except where I said you were wrong. ;)

O.K. WHo the heck is next? ;D
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

CHARLIE

Ron, you said.... "You're also too far north for walnut."

Here in Minnesota we have plenty of Black Walnut trees and I've seen winter temperatures drop anywhere from -28 to -36 degrees. Quite often we will have a stretch of about 10 days where the temp stays in the minus degrees.....about -10 average. It doesn't seem to kill the walnuts. So, why wouldn't walnuts grow in Maine? :P  
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Mongo

Oh wow, that's great Charlie, thanks! I lived in MN for a few years myself.. we get a bit more snow in Maine, but the thermometer doesn't bottom out nearly as bad :)

I talked to my father about the subject the other day, he thinks we should leave them red pine in the ground for another 5-10 years. I guess my next step will be waiting until I get a chance to go back up there and meet with a forester. At the most recent stumpage price of $41/MBF, any excpected price change will affect my decision. Do you think the price will go up anytime soon? If so, I'll leave them for a while, if not, hell,might as well cut them ASAP and get something in the ground that will be worth a little more. (White pine on the other hand had a price of roughly $120/MBF in the same year)

Overall, it looks like white pine might be my best choice I guess. I'd really prefer hardwoods, but... However, I'm trying to also talk my father into letting the fields grow back to forest, so maybe I can add a few stands of some various hardwoods there. (About another 5 acres worth of fields)

If the inch/4 years rule holds up, who knows, maybe by the time I retire in 30-35 years I'd be able to harvest small bits of hardwood to support my woodworking hobby :)

Another related question. Obviously when I sell off the trees, I'm going to get hit with a higher income tax. If I can re-plant in the same year, would I be able to deduct the costs of replanting from what I received for the wood in order to help lower the income tax?


Corley5

We've got black walnuts around here and they do quite well.  A real pain in the butt when they're in your yard.  I've also seen them around the Soo.  From what the landowner told me they grow well but don't produce mature nuts up there.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

CHARLIE

Don't know why they wouldn't produce mature walnuts. That's a mystery to me. Here in S.E. Minnesota, it can get colder than a witch's warbler and our black walnut trees have mature nuts. When I lived in Stewartville, my neighbor had a veneer quality black walnut tree worth at least $50,000 standing :D :D   Every other year that tree would have a heavy crop of walnuts and he'd be out there scooping them up with a snowshovel and piling them up by the back alley. Then the squirrels would raid the pile and bury them all over the place. In the Spring I would have 726 or 727 baby walnuts sprouting up all  over my lawn..
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Don P

Not that I'm a forester...or Norwegian :D...walnuts don't do well on our thinner, rockier blue ridge soils in VA. Nothing beats talking to folks with local info.I do grow a nice oak...here in IL where I am now there are a few stands of walnuts coming up, and they grow nice ones,...are they going to be like christmas trees at market time, a glut of them on the market?
 A 35 year old hardwood is not mature enough to make much more than rocking chair rockers from my experience, way to much juvenile wood, hardwoods are for the long view, and there's nothing wrong with that...those norways can be slow pokes too, my white pines easily outpace the growth rate I've seen on most red pine.

Corley5

Charlie,
  It's probably from the pollution blowing over from Algoma Steel on the Canadian side ;) ;D  Being so close to the lake I would think the climate would be moderated enough to let them mature but he said they don't.  The soils are excellent around there.  Real heavy ground.  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ron Wenrich

Charlie

Southern MN is in the walnut range.  But, temperature is not the only limiting factor.

You have to have a site that is suitable for the type of tree you are growing.  You need temperature, soil, and moisture.  

Some plants can't take the extremes in heat or cold, others will do well.  But, usually the growing season is suitable in a wide variety of areas.  It gets pretty warm up in Canada in the summer.

Moisture can be a limiting factor.  Some plants need plenty of water, others can survive on a lot less and won't grow if there is too much.  Southern and western exposures on ridges are usually drier and support lower quality trees.  Too much strees, but they will survive.

The biggest factor is soil.  Maine has pretty thin soil.  If I recall some geologic history, most of New Englands top soil was pushed south during one of the ice ages.  It is now Long Island.  Also, their soil tends to be more acidic, which is great for blueberries and pine.

Walnut is native to my area, but you rarely find it on ridge sides. Thats due to all that erosion for eons that has left all the good dirt at the bottom of the slopes.   Of course, most of the ones in the valleys have a fence nailed to them.

You can try to grow trees off site.  But, then you have some problems with them.  I could never figure out why silver maple, sycamore and pin oak became such favorites for home landscaping.  They naturally grow in wet areas.  Stick them in a yard, then they quit after the juvenille growth stage and start to rot.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tarm

Mongo
I think you are giving up to soon on the Red (Norway) Pine. At fifty years (assuming planted at 6X8 and not thinned) they must be in the small sawtimber size. Say 9 to 12 inches? Forty more years will get them up to large sawtimber 16 to 20".  A high value market for red pine is utility poles. If your plantation has not been thinned the trees will have small limbs and minimal taper. A selective thinning would remove poor quality trees for pulp and bolts and release the others for faster growth. I've been quoted in the past a price of $200 per cord delivered to the mill for the largest grade of red pine poles. Think about it. If you start over you are throwing away fifty years.    

Ron Scott

I agree, especially if you are on a good red pine site.
~Ron

swampwhiteoak

Mongo,
If memory serves it is possible to deduct replanting costs from harvest income.  Never happens in my area, but I think that's right.

Ron W,
I'll tell you why people love silver maple, pin oak, and sycamore - growth rate.  But there's a soil reason too.  If you think about it, compacted soils have a lot in common with wet soils in terms of root growth.  I didn't think it was possible to kill a silver maple until they blow over in a wind storm :D

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