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Question about live oak

Started by cutterboy, October 28, 2010, 06:11:08 PM

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cutterboy

Hi all. My wife and I both retired  this past summer and are right now in sunny (and warm) Florida enjoying a week's vacation. We are staying at a place about 20 miles north of Datona. It's very interesting looking at the trees which are different than the ones back home in Massachusetts.
  This afternoon we went to Fort Matanzas national park where there were some beautiful large trees with branches that spread way out all around. The main trunk went up only about six feet before 3 or 4 large branches took off. One of the trees was labeled "live oak". I was surprised  because the leaves didn't look like any oak leaf I ever saw.
  I have read on this forum about some of you guys sawing live oak so I guess it is logged for saw logs. (am I right?) But all that I saw had short trunks. Do some grow tall and straight?
  Thanks, Ralph
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

caveman

Quercus virginiana or Live Oak tends to branch outwards, often wider than it grows tall.  Sometimes one will find some with relatively long, straight trunks.  The boards sawn from live oaks can be incredible.  A friend of mine built a dining room table out of a live oak that came down in one of the three hurricanes we had in the 2004, storm season.  The table top is a work of art with the figure and arrangement of the particular boards used.  Years ago, when the U.S. employed a wooden navy, the live oak was a very important tree in the construction of ships due to the live oak's strong interlocking grain.  As a kid, and occasionally as an old man (at least I feel old), live oaks were the best trees in central Florida to climb since their branches often allowed access to the rest of the tree.   
Caveman

LeeB

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

ellmoe

  Not much fun to saw, difficult to work with, and incredibly tough. The USS Constitution had its sides made of live oak. British cannon balls bounced of the sides during a battle (1892 ?), hence the nickname "Old Ironsides". Live oak is not considered to be a red or white oak, rather a "Caribbean oak".
Mark
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

cutterboy

Quote from: caveman on October 28, 2010, 11:41:18 PM
  As a kid, and occasionally as an old man (at least I feel old), live oaks were the best trees in central Florida to climb since their branches often allowed access to the rest of the tree.   

  What do you mean old? You're still a baby. :D :D Wait till you get to my age :o  And I'm still logging and sawing lumber on a manual mill, but I'm a bit slower than I used to be. :-\  I can see what you mean about it being a great climbing tree. I'd think it would be a real joy for a 10yo boy.
  Thanks for the info, thanks for taking the time.  Ralph
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

Raider Bill

The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

cutterboy

Quote from: ellmoe on October 29, 2010, 06:55:44 AM
  Not much fun to saw, difficult to work with, and incredibly tough. The USS Constitution had its sides made of live oak. British cannon balls bounced of the sides during a battle (1892 ?), hence the nickname "Old Ironsides". Live oak is not considered to be a red or white oak, rather a "Caribbean oak".
Mark
Thanks for the info Mark. I've been on the USS constitution a couple of times. It's docked in Boston. I didn't know it was live oak on it's sides. Very interesting.
 Caribbean oak???  Does it produce acorns?  Ralph
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

jdtuttle

My wife & I were just at Myrtle Beach & we went on a botanical tour & there were live oaks there. The interesting thing to me was the leaves are always present. New leaves grow & push the old leaves off. Neat trees.
jim
Have a great day

beenthere

Quote from: cutterboy on October 29, 2010, 09:55:09 AM
Quote from: ellmoe on October 29, 2010, 06:55:44 AM
 Not much fun to saw, difficult to work with, and incredibly tough. The USS Constitution had its sides made of live oak. British cannon balls bounced of the sides during a battle (1892 ?), hence the nickname "Old Ironsides". Live oak is not considered to be a red or white oak, rather a "Caribbean oak".
Mark
Thanks for the info Mark. I've been on the USS constitution a couple of times. It's docked in Boston. I didn't know it was live oak on it's sides. Very interesting.
 Caribbean oak???  Does it produce acorns?  Ralph

Not to rain on the parade, but the USS Constitution "sides" are 6" white oak planking. This planking is over the 12 x 12" frames (ribs) and there is another 6" of white oak planking on the inside of the frames. Over some years, did a bit of work on some rehab efforts in the early 90's on the USS Constitution in the hold of that ship. It is a pretty impressive ship, to say the least.
Here is a mock-up of the construction of old ironsides hull.


south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

I remember reading an article about the restoration of the USS Constitution in an American Forest magazine, so I went looking and found the article on-line. Farther down in the article (pg 4) it tells what parts of the ship are made from what types of wood.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1016/is_n11-12_v99/ai_14795513/?tag=content;col1
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

cutterboy

WOOD FOR WAR

Because she was designed to sail into battle against superior forces, no expense was spared during the construction of Old Ironsides. The hull is nearly two feet thick, and constructed in three layers: The outer frame of white oak, laid horizontally from bow to stern, ranges from 4 1/2 to seven inches thick; the inner frame of live oak, laid vertically from keelson to bulwark, ranges from eight to 18 inches thick; and the inside frame, laid horizontally, of Douglas-fir 4 1/2 to seven inches thick, and white oak approximately 4 1/2 inches thick.

  Jeff, thanks for the link. This is really interesting. No wonder the cannon balls bounced off her sides.   Ralph

To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

Bill Gaiche

I toured the USS Constellation in Baltimore Md in the early ninties. Quite the ship back in its day. I remember the guide telling us about the ship being built of Live Oak. I had never heard of it. He tells us that it last many year. Was the choice of the Navy. The timbers came from the southern states. Seem like he said that quality timber was found in the south. Sence that time i had read about Live Oak and do see it in the south. I believe I see some up this way once in a while. Must be replanted up this far. Not native to our area. bg

ellmoe

Quote from: cutterboy on October 29, 2010, 01:15:00 PM


constructed in three layers: The outer frame of white oak, laid horizontally from bow to stern, ranges from 4 1/2 to seven inches thick; the inner frame of live oak, laid vertically from keelson to bulwark, ranges from eight to 18 inches thick; and the inside frame, laid horizontally, of Douglas-fir 4 1/2 to seven inches thick, and white oak approximately 4 1/2 inches thick.

 

  It was the live oak layer that gave it the bounce !  :D

   They make a small acorn that is much liked by deer and other critters.
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

beenthere

I found it interesting that Pres. Geo. Washington commissioned 5 ships to be built. For about 3 years they collected wood to build the 5 ships. The British previously had been taking our live oak from the southern shores but we put a stop to that. Some real hard work went into logging the live oak out of the swamps for these ships. Oxen and big wheeled carts like LogRite's were used.
Finally after 3 years, with the pirates taking their toll on our merchant ships on the high seas, the order went out to build two ships with the materials on hand. They were the USS Constellation and the USS Constitution. These ships were started and said to have been finished in just a bit over a year. That in itself was amazing to me, with the primitive tools and tough live oak to work with.

The hogging of the USS Constitution mentioned in the article was always a big concern. There were various ways they coped with this upward movement in the keel that threatened to fold up and break the ship into pieces. Stones were loaded into the hull at the keel to put downward forces to hold it in its place.
Finally, after 200 years, it was learned that some angled ribs were missing from the original build when compared to the original drawings. With great difficulty, these angled ribs were fabricated (glued, laminated timbers) and threaded into the hold. I understand they are taking care of the threat of the ships destruction from hogging.

At one time through the years of keeping the USS Constitution seaworthy and to combat decay, the hold of the ship was filled with creosote in hopes that it would soak in and stop the decay. Could still smell the remnants of that creosote when in the bottom of the ship.

Getting the ship ready for annual inspections, the Captains assigned to the ship would do anything to make it look in top notch shape. We found through ultrasound soundings that some timbers were hollow. The sailors had very carefully and neatly placed duct tape over the rotten wood and carefully painted over the "patch" to make it look like a solid wood beam or knee.  :)

I've not heard what has happened to the USS Constellation. If I recall correctly, that was submerged underwater to preserve the wood until restoration funds could be scraped up. But don't know for sure.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Mooseherder

We have one Live Oak that was given to us when it was a young tree in bucket from a friend.
It's grown some Since we planted it in anticipation of some needed shade for the front yard.
It had some Hurricane damage which gave it a lean to the northeast since 2004 but otherwise is a pretty decent tree.  The Bluejays seem to eat every single acorn this tree produces.
I'll take a picture of it in daylight tomorrow.

DanG

I find it interesting that the U.S. Navy still maintains a Live Oak forest near Pensacola, to provide wood for the few remaining wooden ships in the fleet.  It is said that shipwrights go "shopping" in the woods for a large branch with the perfect shape for a ship's stem.

There are several varieties of Live Oaks.  The huge ones we have here are the Southern L.O., or q. virginiana.  We also have the Coast L.O., which is a small tree that grows along the Gulf coast.  There is also a California L.O. which grows, well, it grows in California. ::) :D

The shedding and regrowth of the leaves is unique and interesting.  As mentioned earlier, it sheds all of the leaves at once, and they are replaced within just a few days by a full complement of new ones.  The new ones are a very bright lime green, but turn dark very quickly.  If you aren't looking, you would never know it had done anything.  That happens in the early Spring.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

LeeB

I've got about 1500 - 2000BF of it that I had originally intended to use for flooring, but will most likely never use it. Stuffs just too DanG hard and I can't afford to replace all my machinery trying to turn it into flooring. >:(
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

DanG

If you're not planning on building a wooden warship, trailer decking is one of the better uses for Live Oak.  To answer one of the original questions, the trees you commonly see around town are usually grown in the open, hence the short trunks.  The ones that grow among other trees will develop a much longer stem.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

cutterboy

Yesterday afternoon my wife and I went to Washington Oaks Gardens State Park in Palm Coast, Florida. There is a good reason why "Oaks" is in the name of that state park. There are many beautiful large, even huge, live oaks. I never saw anything like it in my life. They were just awesome in the true sense of the word! Many of the limbs spread out further than the tree was tall. Some of the branches were massive and ran horizontal to the ground for 35-40 feet. Several of the trees had trunks 3.5-4.5 feet thick. I could have spent all day in there among thoes oaks but my wife finally dragged me away.

  I did see some with straight trunks that could yield a couple of nice logs and I saw the little tiny acorns. They were falling with the breeze and Blue Jays were eating them up.
  When I get home tomorrow I'll try to post some pictures.   Ralph

BTW, thanks everybody for taking the time to post all the information.
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

Mooseherder

Here is a picture of our Live Oak.
I don't know the exact age but it is somewhere around 15 years old. ::)
You can see one of our Mahogany Trees we grew from seed to the bottom left of picture. :)


cutterboy

 

I promised pictures of the live oaks in Washington Oaks Gardens State Park in Florida. Here they are and one of a slash pine.






To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

Tom

Glad you enjoyed your visit.  :)

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