Question for Barge Monkey

luvmexfood · June 12, 2014, 03:43:05 PM

Even thow this has nothing to do with logging I have a question. Why do tugs always push the barges instead of pulling them? My guess is so they stay out of the wakes created by the tug boat and possibly they are easier to guide. But being a mountain person don't really know but curious.

isawlogs · June 12, 2014, 03:50:57 PM

Good question, I would also like to know. I like tugs.

luvmexfood · June 12, 2014, 04:56:47 PM

Quote from: isawlogs on June 12, 2014, 03:50:57 PM
Good question, I would also like to know. I like tugs.

Well I just like to know how things works sometimes.

isawlogs. Looked at your profile and really liked the following: A smile is contagious ... Start an epidemic.

I went to the grocery store around 9 Tuesday night. Had a bad day and was sort of grumpy. Came out and was putting my groceries in the car when this SUV came up behind me and blowed the horn. Sort of startled me and then I looked who was driving. It was my insurance agent.

Just cheered me right up. Sometimes the small acts mean wonders.

Chuck White · June 12, 2014, 05:00:52 PM

I'm no expert, but I think it's like the old water pump issue!

It's easier for a water pump to push water than it is to pull water.

I think it's the same with the tugboats!

BargeMonkey · June 12, 2014, 05:45:41 PM

Quote from: luvmexfood on June 12, 2014, 03:43:05 PM
Even thow this has nothing to do with logging I have a question. Why do tugs always push the barges instead of pulling them? My guess is so they stay out of the wakes created by the tug boat and possibly they are easier to guide. But being a mountain person don't really know but curious.

Pushing an object is usually faster and easier to control than towing. This is a pushboat and isnt set up to tow, has regular rudders and forward flanking rudders, basically slide a 4khp boat sideways @ 4kts. Almost all the oil companys have went with ATB's, or "articulating tug & barge" set ups, basically you extend a large pin into a slot on the barges hull and pivot. Ive been all over, from S.America to Duluth MN on a tug, decent money and you cant beat the home time. Www.tugboatinformation.com is a site run by a guy I know who also works out here, if your into boats, 99% of the tugs are on there. Someday give this up and go cut wood full time.

47sawdust · June 12, 2014, 07:07:06 PM

Barge Monkey-
That is a very cool web site.
You must work in some pretty extreme weather at times.Your foul weather gear must be top notch.
Thanks,Mick

LorenB · July 02, 2014, 11:12:11 PM

Quote from: luvmexfood on June 12, 2014, 03:43:05 PM
Even thow this has nothing to do with logging I have a question. Why do tugs always push the barges instead of pulling them? My guess is so they stay out of the wakes created by the tug boat and possibly they are easier to guide. But being a mountain person don't really know but curious.

I'm certainly not an expert, but I suspect it's because boats and ships all steer from the rear. If the tug were towing the barges then the steering wouldn't be either at the front or the back of the entire rig. Shiphandlers are used to maneuvering a vessel that steers from the rear. I would guess that anything else would be unhandy.

Another reason could be that if there were a barge immediately behind the tug the barge would interfere with the flow of water from the tug's screws (propellers) and rudder(s). If the water can't be directed properly as it flows off the rudder then you might not have the control over the steering that you need.

Both these theories are just that - theories. I don't really know, but I'm willing to make a guess.

-- Loren

repmma · July 03, 2014, 07:54:58 AM

Ive sailed on one of the larger ocean going ATB's for the last 7 years. The tug has two main engines at 6,000hp each and we are pushing a 155,000bbl barge (which is a small capacity barge for our hp, other companies run with 350,000bbls). Besides the (2) 9cyl mains we have another 7 high speed engines to maintain not to mention all the other associated systems. We've got the large pins that go out from the tugs hull to connect us to the barge. We arent a ship but compared to a tow we are more like a ship than anything. Our maneuverability is generally better then most comparable ships (650ft over all length) because of our twin prop and rudder setup. Overall a ATB is going to be much more efficient than a tow.

I'd much rather be back on a 600' ship, these ATB's pivot on the pin and pitch like a 150' boat when in the rough weather. Rough weather being 20-30' sea's. You dont get much done on those days... just try to hang on.

BargeMonkey · July 04, 2014, 10:32:20 PM

Hhmmm..... sounds like you work at OSG... lol. Ive got a chief limited oceans and 2nds ticket so I know all about the big boy equipment. Planning on taking a job with Transocean in a year making the real money as a 2nd.

Hilltop366 · July 05, 2014, 12:06:38 AM

Wondering if it is more efficient to push than to tow, when towing the tug would be pushing water back against the barge that you are trying to pull forward.

repmma · July 05, 2014, 05:57:10 AM

Quote from: BargeMonkey on July 04, 2014, 10:32:20 PM
Hhmmm..... sounds like you work at OSG... lol. Ive got a chief limited oceans and 2nds ticket so I know all about the big boy equipment. Planning on taking a job with Transocean in a year making the real money as a 2nd.

US Shipping actually. Lots of people I know have gone to the rigs, money sure is there but at this point I'm not sure I'm game for the flights to Singapore or Nigeria. Still plenty of jobs in the Gulf but if you want the big $$$ you should go overseas.

LorenB · July 05, 2014, 09:20:52 AM

Quote from: Hilltop366 on July 05, 2014, 12:06:38 AM
Wondering if it is more efficient to push than to tow, when towing the tug would be pushing water back against the barge that you are trying to pull forward.

Hilltop,

That sounds like the most reasonable explanation I've heard so far.

-- Loren

repmma · July 05, 2014, 10:09:27 AM

Quote from: LorenB on July 05, 2014, 09:20:52 AM
Quote from: Hilltop366 on July 05, 2014, 12:06:38 AM
Wondering if it is more efficient to push than to tow, when towing the tug would be pushing water back against the barge that you are trying to pull forward.

Hilltop,

That sounds like the most reasonable explanation I've heard so far.

-- Loren

Towing is inefficient in many ways. Backwash from the tug may have an effect but the tow hawser lengths can reach up to 2,000 or 3,000 feet so it is mitigated over that distance. Towing results in a pull-surge-slack effect that creates loss of energy. Just think of towing a vehicle out of the muck.

A note in the "Primer of Towing" that I had on my bookshelf states a 20% efficiency gain for an ATB vs towing tug.

Hull speed of these vessels also depends on hull length, basically your not going to exceed the speed of a 150' tug even though your barge you pull is longer. Put a tug and barge together to get 650' length your hull speed is higher with all other things equal.

Other reasons as mentioned earlier concerning manuverability are also a large reason for pushing units vs towing. But the efficiency boost is hard to ignore. Consider my ATB burning 32 tons of fuel a day. 20% would mean 6.4tons @ $650/ton. Thats over $4000 a day in savings while at sea.

giant splinter · July 05, 2014, 10:21:59 AM

I enjoy all of the stories of the Tugs and other workboats that have done such a great job over all of these years. Is anyone else here a member of NAFTS and has anyone made plans to attend the 2014 event in Portland Oregon?. This Forum is loaded with folks that have spent time on the water in addition to what we all have in common here on the Forestry Forum.

Barge Monkey, all others with Salty Sox
Here is a link to Tug that I am familiar with, a little different than you are used to ..... with a long history of hard work http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/39/39107.htm

luvmexfood · July 05, 2014, 08:24:33 PM

Quote from: giant splinter on July 05, 2014, 10:21:59 AM
I enjoy all of the stories of the Tugs and other workboats that have done such a great job over all of these years. Is anyone else here a member of NAFTS and has anyone made plans to attend the 2014 event in Portland Oregon?. This Forum is loaded with folks that have spent time on the water in addition to what we all have in common here on the Forestry Forum.

Barge Monkey, all others with Salty Sox
Here is a link to Tug that I am familiar with, a little different than you are used to ..... with a long history of hard work http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/39/39107.htm

Thanks. I enjoyed reading about the history of the tug you gave a link on.

BargeMonkey · July 05, 2014, 11:30:30 PM

Thats from back in the day of "wooden boats and iron men". Personally if I go offshore again it will only be on an ATB, and unless its for BIG money im content knocking scows around till I can hang this up. Just gotta get some wood cut, been to wet at home lately.

snowstorm · July 06, 2014, 07:07:27 PM

today we ran the boat down from belfast to camden. coming out of camden harbor i could hear a oil tanker broadcast on ch 16 there location every half hr. he was north bound for sears port. when the tanker goes by the bay is at least 3 miles wide. now just in front of him is a sailboat. the captain tries to hail him on 16 no answer then its the air horn. nope sailboat dosent pay any attention. the sailboat wasnt crossing the bay he was running rite down the ship channel. the tanker passed him but i couldnt tell how close they came. the tanker was maybe 350'long. for those interested there is a AIS website any boat or ship with the transponder the site will show there current location speed and course. any where in the world

snowstorm · July 06, 2014, 07:21:20 PM

marinetraffic.com

BargeMonkey · July 06, 2014, 07:50:16 PM

Ive got 1 better... about 10 days ago just north of the tappan zee we had a 24' boat slam into one of our scows head on, rolled the boat over and started to sink him right there. Im downstairs with the deckhand on the fan tail waiting to pick bodies out of the water. Some people just dont pay attention.