Clear cut or thin?

[MISDH]

I haven't been here in a while, but I have a major decision that I need help on.  I have an 80 acre wooded lot in mid Michigan (Big Rapids).  It is fantastic deer hunting land that I have hunted for 33 years.  I have four kids (8-11), and the prime of their hunting life is about to begin. There are 20 acres of  past peak Austrian pine that are dying off, and I'm torn about what to do.  I can thin them 2/3, and let it grow back wild, or I can clear cut and start over with Reds.  Problems is, I'm 45, I've shot 30 or so beautiful bucks out of that stand of pine and intended my kids to do 4 times the same.  But, they are diseased  and are tipping over (not the kids).  There are other stands nearby that  very diseased, and upwind.  What do I do!?  This stand forms a considerable barrier between me and my neighbors as well.  If I open it up, I say hello to another 80 acres of fields.  My lifelong dream hunting spot is dying; will I live to see it again?  Can I boost my retirement if I clear cut and replant?  I can easily expand it into 25 acres of Reds if I wanted to.  If I clear cut, what do I do, remove all the stumps, or plant between rows?  Mix it with other trees for premium deer cover?  Did I say I love my church of pines?

[Tom]

You are echoing the thoughts of many of us with small acreage.  This is what Foresters are for.   Run to your county agent and County Forester for advice.   I can see them providing you with a plan that will harvest the harvestable trees and leave you with seed trees and places to plant new trees (hardwood or softwood) as well as suggest the creation of foodplots and edges that will make it a better hunting place before you are too old to enjoy it.

Just don't wait.  Your land can only get better through management. 

[kderby]

In my area the highest dollar value for the land is not timber production.  It is  hunting and habitat.  Many/most of our local parcels are managed for recreation.  Certainly "good" management is important but define "good."  That is when a county forester can contribute ideas that will work for you.

I love the church of pines as well.  I love the process of a growing and changing forest. 
I hope you find a way to shape the process and enjoy superb hunting as well.

Kderby

[thecfarm]

Maybe the deer like what is going on in that area. I myself would not remove the stumps,but what do I know,I'm no Forester.

[Pilot1]

What is your objective?

It sounds like your objectives are to maintain habitat for deer and a forest of some sort rather than an open area.

What stand condition best meets that objective?

If you let nature take it's course, will you have open conditions in a few years as the trees die and fall down?  Are you setting things up for a fire?  If you do nothing will your 80 acres get diseased and die?  Are "reds" really your best option?

I don't know your area so I can't comment.  You need to talk to someone who know timber management in your neck of the woods and will give you an unbiased opinion, which generally means don't ask a logger who wants to make a buck.  You want to talk to an extension agent, county forester, consulting forester, etc.

One thought that may be relevant:  In our area (Oregon and Washington) a test was done about 110 years ago planting many different exotic species with native species.  None of the exotics came even close to matching the natives.  Austrian pine was in the test group.  It could be that the Austrian pine is having problems because it is poorly matched to the site and is struggling.  How does your climate and your soil compare to that of Austria or wherever the seed came from?  Another complication is that almost all the norther European trees were wiped out during the last ice age (could have happened in Michigan also, I suppose).  I believe the ones that survived were the ones that were above the glaciers.  So what is there now has slowly evolved to adapt to the site, which is why they like Douglas-fir in Germany and the UK--it's a good tree and isn't any more off-site than their native trees.  Just an idea.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, you should have a professional forester look at your existing condition on site and propose a desired future condition to meet your objectives in an efficient and effective manner. It sounds like some landscape and vegetative management might be in order.

[SPIKER]

I have ~3 of my 20 acres in Aust pine as well, it is also dieing off on my place. like wise the Scotch pine are also up to life age and starting to die back.   not much for timber at all in either case on mine.   The scotch pine is nice & orange in there but the best ones were sprayed by the power line company and are dead.  there are 3 that fell across the path in the last wind storm ~12' DBH is all on the best ones I have...
I would clear out the dead & dieing leave some nice ones and plant for diversity.

Mark

[MISDH]

Exploitation of venison, squirells, partridge, family recreation, and a healthy forest are my only objectives for this land, although some kind of income would certainly help relations with the wife. I guess I really want to know if anyone out there has had good/bad experience with pine stands and clear cutting vs. partial.  I've talked to our regional forester and he suggested clear cutting, but was also open to a partial harvest. It's been a few years and I'm watching a rapid natural occurance of trees dying and can probably except either option now that it's accelerating.  I just don't want to loose the next 6-8 years of "prime" hunting for my kids when it's the best time of their lives. On the other hand, it think it will be 1/3- 1/2 dead in 8 years. 
I never thought of fire....definately a good possibility!

[Tom]

Did you find a forester yet?   When you do, you will probably be confronted with a miriad of options.   What you have to remember is that interplanting conifers, especially pine, is not usually a preferred option.  Pines are grown in even aged stands because shaded pines never catch up with the surroundings.  So, you end up with stunted pine stock that won't do well, even if released.  You also damage them as you try to harvest the mature trees.

Harvesting everything but seed trees and then taking them out later after the seed drop is an option that includes the damage of the harvest.  A forester will take that under consideration.

one option can be a thinning.  If the pines are just reaching one of the several peaks of marketing maturity, the stand can go through a thinning that will leave the remaining pines room to grow into the next Marketing slot.

If the trees are over mature, clear cutting might be the timber option, but not the recreational or wildlife option.  Recreation and wildlife are as much a part of the management plan as the trees.  A good Forester knows this and will take it into consideration in writing a management plan that will meet your goals.

This is why you need to get the hands-on opinion of a trained, schooled and educated Forester.  To use a popular media term, "boots on the ground."

[John Mc]

Have you given any thought to doing a series of patch cuts? You might be able to clear some smaller patches (a couple acres or so each), and get something else started there, while what you leave is still providing some cover habitat. The patch cuts themselves may also be good deer habitat... lots of browse for them to work on as it starts to grow back in.

Around here, patch cuts are popular wildlife tools among those who have some knowledge of the subject... we've got so much mature, unbroken canopy in some spots (much of it even-aged stands from back when the sheep farms were abandoned), that the deer have little undergrowth to browse on in the winter. It's been made worse in some parts of the state as people who have never owned forest land buy up their "dream home" sites, and assume that the best thing they can do for any and all wildlife is to never touch anything in the woods. Then wonder why they never see any deer anymore...

Your mileage may vary. Where I grew up in NW Ohio, the 30 acres of woods on our farm was unusual... other than a few fence rows with trees, and some much smaller stands, just about everything else was farm fields. I that case, maybe leaving our woods alone was the right thing to do from a wildlife perspective.

I would talk to a good forester with an interest and background in wildlife habitat management about the possibility of patch cuts, or some other method that might let you keep some parts in your mature forest, while getting other parts started regenerating.

[Chris Burchfield]

I helped an uncle shoot our family land.  The Mississippi Forest Service had contacted us relaying we had lost a 60' diameter to the pine beetle.  Uncle tallied while I shot paint on select trees for harvest.  If two or more grew from the ground with the butts together, cats paw on the face of the tree, a bad crook in the tree's growth, dead or dying.  This was on a 112 acres.  There were quite a few dollars for the logs by the time it was said and done.  The summer after the harvest, young seedlings were covering the forest floor live velvet where it was opened up to let the sun in.  The logger we used was from the area and had a good reputation.

[Pilot1]

You talk about thinning as an option.  You may be kidding yourself at least from a silvicultural standpoint.

The crown is the key.  It tells you everything.

Is the stand crowded?  You can judge that by the crown ratios--the portion of total height of the tree occupied by live crown.  A tree with less than 30% of it's height in dense, healthy live crown is struggling and may not respond to thinning.  If the crown ratios are up around 50-60% or more, the stand is already open and thinning is just wasting space.

I thin when crowns drop down to less than 40% for vigorous response to thinning.  If they are <30%, they may not respond or may take a long time and may be subject to windthrow or snow damage before they respond.  Usually, thinning these stands really amounts to just a slow clearcut.