Sharpening blades vs shipping blades

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I make about $60 a hour sharpening, sawing can be more or less depending on what I'm sawing.  Also while I'm waiting for the sharpener to go around I do other things like chainsaw maintance, sharpening .etc.  I cut hard wood most times and can dull a blade up in 2 hours so 4 to 6 blades a day would cost a lot to send out.   Steve

This is a good point Steve. I guess it all comes down to what ever works best to a particular sawyer.
Good reply. 

[Deese]

Cooks Cat Claw sharpener is $1400 and the single tooth setter is $200.
I watched the videos on both and it makes it look so easy...
I wonder how long a new blade will last if I'm cutting 10ft long 20-24" clean red oak logs?

I would have to pay for 20 shipments (10 blades each) for resaw service before I recovered equipment costs...

hmm.....

[Deese]

I don't even have the mill yet and I ran into a man over the weekend that wants me to mill a bunch of bald cypress on his property. He said he would either pay me or split the lumber. Whichever I prefer...

Ummm....I'll take the LUMBER!! 8)

[Deese]

Okay--making an executive decision...

I'm going to start with the 20 blades I have and see how it goes.
If they last longer than I am expecting, I will most definitely get them sharpened elsewhere. I mean heck--I've got a full time job, not a full time sawyer. However, if I feel like I'm wasting money on shipping blades and I get some decent side work--I will be investing in blade maintenance equipment...

But here's the good thing...by that time, I will already have gained some experience and will be better able to make the best decision for my way of doing things...

Y'all are the best!

[Bibbyman]

Are you sharpening for others that pay you for your service?  Or are you sharpening your own blades and thus just avoiding paying someone else to do the work? 

Say Mary and I saw 400 bf / hr and charge $300/mbf for custom sawing or expect that much profit from the product produced.   That's $120/hr, if I did my math right. Divide by two because there are two of us gives $60/hr/person.

I figure I save $10/blade doing them myself.   I'm getting better but I don't think I can sharpen more than three an hour.  So I can save $30 or make $60.

It's all fuzzy math because both activities have overhead involved.   In blade sharpening you need, in my case, to consider the oil costs.   Maybe replacement CBN wheel.  I don't know how long one will last but they are $200 each. But with stone grinder you have to replace wheels more often. 

Then in both cases there is the investment in equipment to average out over how much the equipment is used. That goes into overhead.   We invested nearly $5,000 in sharpening equipment and supplies.   Now comes the 6'th grade math question: "How many blades will I need to sharpen at $10/blade (savings) to pay for $5,000 in equipment at a labor cost of $20/blade (assuming I could make $60/hr at mill) and a material cost of $.50/blade? ".

[hackberry jake]

I usually use two blades when im sawing. Once one is dull, I take it off the mill and put it on the sharpener. I take the one that was on the sharpener and put it on the mill. I will make two or three cuts on the next log before the sharpener is done. I then turn the sharpener off and continue sawing until that band gets dull and repeat. Having my own sharpener makes it easy to justify pulling a band off before it shows signs of "too dull". Once I see the little strings hanging out of the cut I usually change it with a sharp one. I wouldnt do that if I had to justify $10 each time. Id blow through at least $50 each day I ran the mill.

[Bibbyman]

I usually use two blades when im sawing. Once one is dull, I take it off the mill and put it on the sharpener. I take the one that was on the sharpener and put it on the mill. I will make two or three cuts on the next log before the sharpener is done. I then turn the sharpener off and continue sawing until that band gets dull and repeat. Having my own sharpener makes it easy to justify pulling a band off before it shows signs of "too dull". Once I see the little strings hanging out of the cut I usually change it with a sharp one. I wouldnt do that if I had to justify $10 each time. Id blow through at least $50 each day I ran the mill.

When, if ever do you set the teeth?   I could maybe skip setting one time or set every other time but I don't think I could just keep sharpening over and over and not put set in the teeth.

[ladylake]

As NMFP I run 7 to 8 blades per hour through my sharpener .   Steve

[hackberry jake]

I usually use two blades when im sawing. Once one is dull, I take it off the mill and put it on the sharpener. I take the one that was on the sharpener and put it on the mill. I will make two or three cuts on the next log before the sharpener is done. I then turn the sharpener off and continue sawing until that band gets dull and repeat. Having my own sharpener makes it easy to justify pulling a band off before it shows signs of "too dull". Once I see the little strings hanging out of the cut I usually change it with a sharp one. I wouldnt do that if I had to justify $10 each time. Id blow through at least $50 each day I ran the mill.

When, if ever do you set the teeth?   I could maybe skip setting one time or set every other time but I don't think I could just keep sharpening over and over and not put set in the teeth.

It depends on how much I take off sharpening. But on a new blade I can sharpen it 2-3 times before I set it. On a blade I already set I can get 3-4. I set them a little more than the factory does. On a "band setting" day I dont have time for running the mill. And it is a lost day as far as production goes for sure. The more horsepower you have on your mill the longer you can go between sharpenings as well. I can see where diesel guys (magic) and three phase guys (electrical, bibby) have a hard time justifying sharpening their own. For us little guys, we dont get near as much bf per sharpening before having to change them.

[bandmiller2]

Theirs no right or wrong answer here.As stated its all in how much you cut, a hobbyist or beginner should get his feet wet first.If you find milling is your thing and your working for hire the investment in sharpening equipment is likely worth it.If you don't like the time or involvement in sharpening by all means send them out.I have always sharpened and set my own and pretty much paid for my equipment sharpening for outhers.Each band I sharpen now only costs me a few cents for stone wear and electric. Frank C.

[WDH]

With a manual mill, you can figure about 500 BF per blade.  With a hydraulic mill with more HP, you can get more BF per blade.  More HP will trump a dull blade whereas with a low HP manual mill, a dull blade will eat your lunch. 

[Peter Drouin]

Part time sends the blades out full time buy a sharpener and setter.
I have the WM cbn and setter, It paid for itself in less than a year
at $10 a blade and I can do 10 and hour and I always set first.
I have my supper then do some blades. Not every day.
When you work for yourself you have to what you have to do. :D :D ;D

[Po-Jo]

well for the ones who do sharpen their own, what equipment do you use? do you have pictures of your setup? I seen Jakes setup in action on his video, very nice indeed. Deese sorry didnt mean to hijack your thread just want to see what their setups look like and like you am interested in resharps  ;D 

[Bibbyman]

With a manual mill, you can figure about 500 BF per blade.  With a hydraulic mill with more HP, you can get more BF per blade.  More HP will trump a dull blade whereas with a low HP manual mill, a dull blade will eat your lunch.

A dull blade is bad economy all the way around.  Not only will the production rate suffer, the chances for making a bad cut increase.  Also, sawing with a dull blade doubles the cost of running the mill.  Think about it. If you make a cut down a log in 10 seconds with a sharp blade and say make the cut with a dull blade that takes 20 seconds, you have used twice the energy and put twice the wear on all the engine or motor, belts and so on. And probably used up more than twice as much blade life as it had to make twice as many trips around the wheels.  Really dull blades often take more than one trip around the sharpener.



We have a Wood-Mizer CBN grinder.



And Wood-Mizer dual-tooth setter.

[Deese]

I started this thread well over a year ago, as I was new to sawing and was trying to decide whether to go ahead and buy a sharpener and setter, or ship the blades to get resharpened/set. I feel that this may be a common dilemma for those who are just getting started and I wanted to share my feedback in hopes that it will benefit someone trying to make the decision...

I finally decided to buy the Cook's Cat Claw Sharpener and single tooth setter after about a month of owning my sawmill. In fact I never shipped any of my blades for a resharp service. I haven't kept records of hours sawing, hours sharpening, total BF sawed, etc....basically just sawing for fun even though I have sold a lot of ERC to a few folks. Last summer I sawed enough bald cypress for a guy to build a small home (will update with pics of the cabin) and am currently sawing some big SYP logs.

Looking back, I wish I had kept detailed records of everything I have done thus far...just for curiosity's sake if for nothing else...

Here are my thoughts on my decision to "jump in head first" with the sharpener/setter:

First let me say that the Cook's Cat Claw sharpener and setter are very fine pieces of equipment that will surely outlast me and my years of sawing. They perform exactly as advertised and I have never dealt with a finer company and its employees. They are eager to help me over the phone and genuinely seem to appreciate my business.

Just as others had advised me, it has taken me quite a while to get comfortable using the sharpener and setter. At this moment in time, I will tell you that I have spent vast amounts of time learning the sharpener, making mistakes, and yes---totally destroyed a few blades in the process :-\. Trust me when I say that it's not hard to do  :D ;D. And every time I do, that's $20-something down the drain. I've only ran my sharpener through 60-70 full blade cycles. If I quit sawing today, my decision to buy the sharpener and setter would have been a costly mistake. However, I genuinely enjoy sawing and plan to continue for the rest of my years. I figure that it will take me about 2-3 more years before I make my initial investment back, not counting the time spent doing the actual sharpening/setting/troubleshooting.

If I could go back and do it all again, I would make the same choice to buy the sharpener and setter. It will last me a lifetime.

It's a personal choice. It's a good long term investment. Definitely not short term ;)

[Cedarman]

One never knows what tomorrow will bring.  Thanks for letting us know what you did and how it went.  Happy sawing.

[Deese]

And here's a link to another thread about this same topic.....

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,56991.msg826778.html#msg826778

[hackberry jake]

You don't have to justify the new price of the sharpener. You just have to justify the new price minus what you think they will sell for used. Say you spent $2500 on sharpening/setting equiptment. Used it for three years and then sold the equiptment for $1000. You technically only spend $1500 on the sharpening equiptment... Some say I'm an enabler...

[flatrock58]

I bought a used WM mill and it came with the CBN sharpener and single tooth setter.  It also came with 20 old blades.  I find that even with the teeth set and the blades sharp they seem to dull fast cutting beetle killed pines.  I bought a few new blades, but need to break down and buy 15-20 more and keep the old blades for yard trees. 
Maybe if I modify my setter to a dual tooth setter I won't hate setting blades so much!
Not sure if I would have paid the price for a sharpener if I had bought a new mill.  But then again I am not in it for a business yet.

[redbeard]

Deese I bought the same set up almost a year ago and had 70 blades. I have not bought new blades yet and have 45 blades. I have gotten 7-8 sharpenings  on most of them. I too dont keep good records but I do know I was spending 3K and better per year before the Cooks set up on New blades and Sharpening Service. I should be close to having sharpener pay for itself by August.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Ive sharpened and set for a little over 5 yrs now, during which my blade use has grown considerably.  I used to keep track but stopped. No doubt I"ve paid for most of the cost with savings on what I would have spent for re-sharp.  It is a chore not meaning in the sense that it is a burden but more like if you have cows then someone has to milk them twice a day or else.  Some here have decided they don't want to sharpen blades when they're not sawing.  Others do.  If you're debating it I'd suggest you probably do have the time and it is just a decision you need to make about whether you'd like to save on your bottom line by putting in extra hours when you're not sawing.  Myself I"d like to upgrade my setter (it's posted for sale) which will help a bit with the chore. Once you're too busy you'll know it because you will have a mountain of dull bands and will be thinking about buying new blades to keep going.  At that point you can start sending to re-sharp if you want.

I also use swing mill blades and have a Peterson retipping jig.  But I've never used it and don't think I will, I"ve got too many other things to do and would rather send those blades out to get fixed.  I charge the customer for that anyway and have decided I don't need to to into that learning curve to make a bit more money.

Just my $.022.

[Chuck White]

When I got my sharpener, I started marking down every time I sharpened a blade.

I figured that when I set and sharpened my 350th blade, my sharpener and setter would be amortized out and would owe me nothing.  That happened over 2 years ago.  8)

The figures were based on $7.00 per blade if they had been sent out for resharpening instead of doing them myself also, not even figuring in the shipping.  ;)