neighbor complained about noise, county says i cant mill

spencerhenry · June 08, 2011, 07:11:24 PM

one of my jerk wad neighbors called to complain about me milling saying that the noise is "ruining their quality of life". the complaint was anonymous but i know who it is. he has been convicted of 3rd degree assault against me, trespass on my friends place, has admitted to stealing everything from the neighbors woodstove (out of the house), to a gate, a fencer, and a canoe. i have tried to get him busted for trespassing a few times on my property and the sheriffs department refused. he is a real degenerate loser.
the nearest house to me is about 300 yards from the mill, his house probably more like 500 yds. there is heavy brush and a road between the mill and the houses. i try not to start any machines before 7:am, and shut down before 5:pm and not run on weekends unless i really have to. i think in the last 8 years i have put only about 600 hours on my mill at home, and maybe 250 hours on my edger, the rest is offsite.
the county code enforcement guy called and said they had a complaint. so far he is not being a jerk, but did say that a sawmill is NOT allowed with my residential zoning, and also commercial firewood processing is not allowed either. he wants to come up the next time i mill and listen from the road to determine if "their quality of life is adversely affected".
i live about 12 miles off the highway on 35 acres. everyone in the area runs a business out of their home, or has an illegal (no permit) building or remodel, or has some kind of violation. i put the word out in the neighborhood a few years ago that if i got shut down, everyone else would get looked at too. if i get shut down, it will shut off about 70% of my yearly income. property around here is VERY expensive, and the only parcels that i could maybe afford are zoned residential. i guess it is time to put together a list of everyone's illegal home add-ons, illegal buildings, businesses being run out of the home, rental units that are not up to code, and find some other way to make money.

red oaks lumber · June 08, 2011, 08:44:24 PM

sorry to hear about your deal :( i don't know co. law but in wisconsin you need to aleast have a conditional use permit, with only having residential zoning they might have you.
personally i wouldn't stir the pot by turning everyone else in. life is much easier having friends than enemies ;D

Papa1stuff · June 08, 2011, 08:48:47 PM

I don't think that person is much of a friend!! >:(

terrifictimbersllc · June 08, 2011, 09:31:08 PM

Try to stay upbeat. Consider applying for a variance and getting any of your neighbors and some of your customers to come and speak for you about why what you are doing is good and not offensive. Be patient with the zoning official, sounds like he's remaining open by coming to listen for himself. Maybe look to compare and remind about other variances that have been approved or not enforced rather than what others shouldn't be doing. Are there any noise abatements you could implement, better mufflers, fence, taking it inside? Not that I'd be any good at this. You're in trying times. Being able to saw is worth a great deal. Hang in there!!! ;)

Kevin · June 08, 2011, 10:02:10 PM

You don't want to be a jerk wad neighbor by copying one.

carykong · June 08, 2011, 11:22:03 PM

I vote for a bigger muffler before the inspector arrives. good luck.

Brian_Rhoad · June 08, 2011, 11:38:57 PM

I think you said you had been there 8 years, or had the mill 8 years. There may be a time limit for complaints as far as when you started running the mill and the time of the complaint.

paul case · June 08, 2011, 11:41:52 PM

i doubt your sawmill is any louder than some lawnmowers or diesel pickups. they have those in colorado, dont they?
1.sounds like you have a good in with the inspector and you should work that in your favor. he may be able to help you get ''legal'' or at least find an exclusion that woiuld allow you to continue to operate.
my second thought is it is a free country right?
give your neighbor that is obviously a little up tight a gift of the nicest ear muff sound reducers you can find, anonomously of course.
my third thought.
put up a sign. please use ear protection near here. we might be doing something that is loud.

probably wont help. may provide comic relief though. there is not many cures for too much goverment.
pc

mikeb1079 · June 08, 2011, 11:43:01 PM

what about converting to an electric motor for the mill? if you don't have three phase power you could run a rotary phase converter...

sst04 · June 09, 2011, 01:53:00 AM

Is there a noise ordinance in your county? I would find out, and if there is not, tell them to kiss off.

We get the Sherriff called for setting off Tannerite all the time, but since there is no noise ordinance in the county, there is not much they could do except tell us to have fun.

Also sounds like you might want to look into a restraining order for this neighbor, since he has done something to you in the past and is still Tresspassing.

Ratting out the Other neighbors would not be a good Idea. It would not help anyone, and would make you look like the looser.

SwampDonkey · June 09, 2011, 05:34:48 AM

Sounds like your in an urbanized area. So everyone has to respect one another. It's a whole lot easier to find solutions and get along.

jdtuttle · June 09, 2011, 06:19:33 AM

Quote1.sounds like you have a good in with the inspector and you should work that in your favor. he may be able to help you get ''legal'' or at least find an exclusion that woiuld allow you to continue to operate.

Paul has a good idea. If that doesn't work find all your neighbors with business's and go to the zoning commission together. That's why their there. If that doesn't work check the zoning regulations & escalate to the next level of government, probably the local town council.
Good luck,
jim

Cedarman · June 09, 2011, 06:47:40 AM

Zoning has the sole purpose of putting people in positions that others can put their thumbs down on them. Zoning takes away freedoms. You have 35 acres and can't have a sawmill on it. That sounds ridiculous. How humiliating to have to go to someone and ask permission to run a sawmill on your own land. If you are smacked down, you might talk to all your ordinance breaking neighbors and start a revolt against all the silly rules that keep people from living their life.
They tried to get zoning in our county a number of years ago. The promoters quit trying. Newpaper said the reason was that there were too many death threats.

I wish you good luck. Put all your charm and persuasive skills to work with the enforcement dude. As mentioned, a good muffler could do the trick.

Chris Burchfield · June 09, 2011, 08:05:57 AM

My vote is for a better muffler. Be kind to the rest of you neighbors. Get a db meter like from Radio Shack. http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=sound%20meter&origkw=sound%20meter&sr=1 Take sound level measurements before and after the muffler swap. Measure @ 10', chest height facing the exhaust discharge. Take measurements @ 100' for comparison for when the inspector shows up. Then a couple like a riding lawnmower or tractor and bush hog. Of course there is nothing I know of to dampen the blade noise. Good luck.

Chuck White · June 09, 2011, 08:51:23 AM

First thing I'd do is to make sure I'm in the right.
Even though residential, there has to be a noise level that's allowed.
I really find it hard to believe that being 500 yards away, that your noise would bother anyone!

EXAMPLE: I complained about a neighbors loud music at 11:30 one night and when the deputy called me back to let me know that he had taken care of it, he said the neighbor has a complaint that I've been shooting my guns within 500 feet of his house. I haven't, our houses are exactly 516 feet apart and I shoot in my back yard and the neighbor is across the road!

Like I said, cover yourself first!

Good Luck.

Kansas · June 09, 2011, 09:17:59 AM

Good ideas. If you get along with some of your other immediate neighbors, see if they will go to bat for you. I don't know what you have for a political structure, but if you have any kind of relationship (positive) with a county commisioner, you might give him a call. Point out the income generated and services provided by your business. Income means taxes generated for the county plus dollars spent at businesses in town.

And if all else fails, ask yourself the all important question: What would the Godfather do?

northwoods1 · June 09, 2011, 09:38:43 AM

I totally agree about the don't stir the pot idea:) When it comes to this kind of situation it is always about the neighbors. They are the ones who will make trouble for you with the town, in your case it is about zoning. What you need to do is make friends with the town supervisors and county officials, and be able to show them that your sawing and firewood operations are not commercial and just something your are doing as a hobby. It has nothing to do with how quite your muffler is, it sounds like it is to late for that, and as the county official pointed out it is about zoning, not noise. They can not stop you from having and using a sawmill on your property for your own use, but if your milling lumber for sale that is a different story. Zoning laws can work for you of against you keep that in mind. I am about in the same situation as you with the property my sawmill is located on. I make it a point to get along with all the neighbors. It makes my and their life easier! :D I've already had a couple go arounds with the town officials from the township my mill and farm is located at. I built a barn so I could put a water system in and keep it from freezing so I could move my livestock out there and the assessor promptly took out 2 acres and zoned it residential, increased my taxes and made me pay a fine for converting the land. I went to the board of review to contest it and the assessor had a pic of my barn ( which they got from coming on my property without my knowledge)(Not that that really matters because most assessors now a days can just get on google earth and see EXACTLY what your doing with your property without being there!!!) and the town chairman said "you could live in that!", and I was not able to PROVE that it was for agricultural use. So I just let it go and determined to use it to my advantage. Now I can use it for anything I want not just farm purposes at least. In a nutshell, your situation is simply this: if you can't operate under the radar and get along the neighbors, you have two options. One is show that your sawmill and firewood operations are not feasible "profit' making businesses. I am certain that there are no restrictions against sawing all the lumber and making all the firewood you want on your property,,, but do it for profit that is a different story. The other option is to do what is required to have a business on your property. Find out what is legally required and if it is really that difficult. Or move :D, I am particularly interested in this thread because I am looking at buying 40 acres a bit south of you down by Trinidad. I like to live out in the sticks and not have anyone bother me. When looking at this property my 1st question is: what are the township officials like? Who are the neighbors? The neighbors will always be the ones to give your trouble... or make your life wonderful. If you are unsure about the neighbors at least be sure to have the law on your side. Turning in others that don't comply with the law will get you no where...........

woodpeckerlips · June 09, 2011, 10:05:28 AM

I had a similiar problem breifly! I'm on the back side of a subdivision with a home owner assoc. They complained and the law showd up! In virginia we have residential zoining and agricultural zoining. Here agricultural zoining doesn't have any noise restrictions. So I politely informed the police and let him know the only option they had was to move and that should let them know the next time I got a complaint that I'd turn the muffler to the the deitrot 3-71 in their direction and only run it in the middle of the night and early on the weekends! I haven't had any problems since! Check out your zoning laws, (35 acres) you should have some rights. Then if you need to rezone, so be it! Let them know you are cutting material for your (personal) use! Not a buisness! That could be a hang up! Then, I don't see how they can shut you down!

sixteenacrewood · June 09, 2011, 10:10:50 AM

One thought
noise, volume, is a measurable thing, just like the length of a log. There is legal precedent and decibel limits set for any area with a noise ordinance.
borrow or buy a decibel meeter. You may be able to get a local sound man for a local band or club to come out and take noise readings while you are running your mill.
Before you make any move know the FACTS. Just how loud is it? and how does it compare with other things that make noise in the area. At this point their complaint is all hearsay with no fact.
Be the first one to present fact and compromise to the county official and you just may come out on top.
Just a thought.

spencerhenry · June 09, 2011, 10:15:27 AM

there is NO dealing with these neighbors. the one that complained has been convicted of several offenses, and he continues to be a problem. the fact is a sawmill is NOT allowed in my zoning so i am screwed at some point. the noise is just their way of getting the county to come look around. i know it is antagonistic to turn the neighbors in for their illegal stuff, but if i am shut down milling i have nothing to lose. everything i do here is legal except the wood processing. i have been on this property for 21 years and been milling for over 8.
i get logs from the county fire mitigation jobs, so that guy likes me, but he knows that what i am doing is not legal. now and then he mentions something to the effect of i cant do what i do. but it benefits him, the county, and the state in general. we have major amounts of wood to get rid of with the pine beetle and though i am a small operation, i still go through about 7 to 10 loads of logs per year. and i am trying to increase that.
to give you guys an idea of what i am dealing with, last night i went out on a ride on my motorcycle. i took my coyote rifle because i thought i might go up to the national forest. on my way i realized that i was on reserve so i couldnt go far. then i saw a new realtor sign and figured i would go check it out to see whose property was for sale. i got to the end of the road and saw whose place it was and turned around without stopping. later that evening i get a call from the sheriff, he says someone complained that i pointed a rifle at him. the guy is the best friend of the neighbor that called about the noise. i never stopped my bike, never got off my bike, and never pointed my rifle at anything, i carry it across my back and never even unslung it. but while riding down the hill i heard 2 shots from the guys house that called about the noise. i dont know what he was shooting at, but it was intended to say something to me. he never shoots any other time.
getting a special use permit is impossible. i would have to notify every neighbor in writing about a request for the variance, they have 30 days to comment, then there is a hearing with the county commissioners who listen to all complaints and letters and make a decision. the people i caretake for spend about $100,000 to get a variance to build a house last winter. the county said the road wasnt wide enough, that you cant have more than 4 houses on a dead end road, and some other minor issues. they hired attorneys and plead their case for months before finally being granted a building permit. the county people are not so interested in people doing what they want, but more interested in creating more rules.
my place is a half mile off the county road, and 7 miles to the nearest paved road, and about 17 miles from town. there are only about 11 other neighbors, 2 i am friendly with, another i caretake for, and 2 others dont bother me and i dont bother them.

spencerhenry · June 09, 2011, 10:21:10 AM

the neighbor that i caretake for has 640 acres that is NOT zoned residential. there i can do just about anything. i told the county guy that if i have to stop milling on my property that i will set up there and run all my machines from first light to dark, weekends and holidays and be quite a bit more offensive. there are NO trees in that spot and it backs right up to one guys house. i dont want to move there, and not sure the owners would let me, and if my machines were there they would be totally visible and become bullet magnets from the county road.
i dont want to spent a bunch of time an money building a saw shed only to be told a week later that i still cant mill. i am thinking that i might stick some shipping containers on the neighbor side and then stack lumber 5 or 6 feet tall on top of that. it would help noise a little bit, but look like hell.

WH_Conley · June 09, 2011, 12:14:09 PM

Work with the inspector and the "Good" neighbors. Check and see what the zoning code was when you moved in and when you started sawing. Not memory, the exact regs including effective dates. Get copies. If you have to consult a lawyer it will be cheaper for you to already have them in hand instead of paying his clerk to get the copies. Initial consultation with an attorney is usually not that expensive, could be your best investment.

Hope the guys buddy sells out, if his buddy leaves, he might too.

sparks · June 09, 2011, 01:05:39 PM

The sawmill has a 98dBA standin right by the mill. 20 feet away it is 90dBA. So at his distance it would be no more than a riding lawnmower.

northwoods1 · June 09, 2011, 03:10:40 PM

Quote from: spencerhenry on June 09, 2011, 10:15:27 AM
there is NO dealing with these neighbors. the one that complained has been convicted of several offenses, and he continues to be a problem. the fact is a sawmill is NOT allowed in my zoning so i am screwed at some point. the noise is just their way of getting the county to come look around. i know it is antagonistic to turn the neighbors in for their illegal stuff, but if i am shut down milling i have nothing to lose.

Like you said, the noise is just a way to get the county to come out and look around, in other words it isn't about that. What do you mean when you say a sawmill is not allowed in your zoning? You can't have a sawmill?? How does that work? You mean if you want to buy a bandmill and saw up a few logs for fun it is against the law?
You say you have nothing to lose for complaining about the neighbors in retaliation, but you don't have anything to gain by it either. With the gun story you just told about, it sounds like you need to take a step back and just take a breather for a bit. Getting all upset will get you no where in fact it very well could make matters worse for you and your neighbors. Just relax, find out what the law allows regarding the operations you have on your property, and comply with those laws. If you comply with all local laws your neighbors can't do anything to bother you. Sounds like right now you don't like your neighbor because he is an unsavory character, well that doesn't help you if your breaking the law on your property now does it? I totally sympathize with you about not being able to do what you want on your property, like milling some wood. I'll bet A LOT of people on this forum are in the same situation as you. That is: having a mill selling lumber and and NOT operating it on a commercially zoned property. What you gonna do turn them in all it too? Would that make you feel better? What you need to do is either get along with your neighbors,, or have the law on your side. Another thing I'd point out that might be obvious is... nothing is worth driving yourself crazy over like a long running argument with stupid neighbors. If you can't wake up and be happy everyday going about your normal business, it is time to move on from your situation.