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winch for saw head lifting

Started by charles mann, January 29, 2019, 02:11:41 PM

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Vautour

 

 @ Charles mann....my gearbox/motor will be attached to the carriage frame to one side and a overhead door spring will be added to the jackshaft to help with  the raising of  the head.......you asked about my plastic inserts for frame rails.. i bought this round stock piece at a scrap yard and machined them to proper size.. don't actully know what material there are made off??... TK has the same set up but only square tubing with regular theflon inserts i believe..very easy and simple to make.... hope it helps thumbs-up    
the Gospel is WANTED by the people in 52 Countries but made illegal by their Government

Vautour

@ Charles mann... just curious as to what is your plan for the adjustable roller guide method... i like Cremona's idea... i belive the B20's have this method also      .@ DOC  ... tks for the compliment the other day... did i read that you have the B20 model?..if soo what's your take on this method?.. the newer TK models have the horizontal i belive!!... your insight would be appreciated.. :)
the Gospel is WANTED by the people in 52 Countries but made illegal by their Government

charles mann

Quote from: Vautour on February 01, 2019, 07:43:26 AM
@ Charles mann... just curious as to what is your plan for the adjustable roller guide method... i like Cremona's idea... i belive the B20's have this method also      .@ DOC  ... tks for the compliment the other day... did i read that you have the B20 model?..if soo what's your take on this method?.. the newer TK models have the horizontal i belive!!... your insight would be appreciated.. :)
going to use a similar method as both our saw head guide, and the carriage guide for a wm mill.
weld a 1" rod, probably 2" off (that is the width of the 1/2" flat bar i have) bottom of the saw beam. take a piece of either 3" or my 2 1/2" sq tubing, fill it full of uhmw, bore a 1" hole through the plastic,  cut a 1/2" wide slit in the top or the tubing and upper part of the uhmw, and slide it over the 1" rod. or depending how heavy the sliding guide system will be, i may end up boring the hole through the plastic and not cutting a slot in the tubing, but suspend the, probably go up to 2" rod though, with the 1/2"x 2" flat bar and let the guide system just slide across the rod, but weld a stop on the other side, around 24" from the other guide. i wont be milling anything under 24" with my mill. operating cost would be more than the value of the material im cutting, esp if i hit something and damage a blade.  
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Vautour

....... @charles mann ... in my last pic. i forgot to mention about the sprocket i had not yet installed on the jackshaft as you see the chain going around the gearbox and going around the jackshaft(with sprocket missing)..the chain is only attached to the head not and the carriage... i will have the lifting part all done in a few days and post pics up... oh by the way...which magic button do you press to tag someone?? im still a little ignorant :-[   
the Gospel is WANTED by the people in 52 Countries but made illegal by their Government

charles mann

so, i visited the portland, or WM the other day and finally figured out the lifting mechanism. for the longest, i couldn't figure out where the "extra" chain would go as the head if lifting. after looking at an LX150 that was loaded and ready for delivery, i found out nearly everything i need to get my lifting mechanism up and going. 

now, I'm still not sure if I'm going to use a winch or utilize the same motors and gearboxes WM uses. I'm thinking bc of the weight of my power plant, and where it will need to be located (won't know any rough locations yet, until i get the raise/lower linear guide boxes built and installed) to keep the drive wheel shaft within acceptable length and location, either behind the band wheel, or behind the carriage vertical support. i may have to grab my back carriage vertical supports to help disperse the load on all 4 corners, not just the front 2. 
question is, would grabbing the back 2 supports be beneficial for load distro, or grabbing the rear motor support structure with a set of roller chains and snaking it through the sprockets to either a single, or maybe a sec jackshaft placed above and at the back of support structure? 
YES!!!, it will require a LOT more double roller chain, but it will help share the load of the sawed beam and motor structure. I know, timing the 2 roller chains may be a fiasco, but in the end, it may be the better choice for longevity, until i can find suitable replacement engine that doesn't weigh 2x more than a 38 hp kohler gas burner. 

if I'm not making since as to where I'm talking about linking the chain, i will do my best to draw it, but i SUCK at drawing plans, but i can read them, and i SUCK at conveying my meanings/descriptions. 
but basically, how the saw head would lift, i would do the same for the back of the motor structure, and run a roller chain, off the sawed beam jackshaft, reward, to the support structure jackshaft, and mirror the sawed beam lifting mechanism. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

@Vautour 

what diameter rod and material did you make your jackshaft out of? 

i was thinking 1.5"-2" 1045 hot rolled, or maybe an alloy steel for corrosion resistance. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

 

 

sorry its not to scale, but the gist of the system is there. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Vautour

 @ charles mann ....my jackshaft is just a 2'' boiler tube (higher carbon than regular steel)   1.05 wall ...but i did machine solid insert at both ends for my pillow block (1.75'')... will read up your LX150 post.. seems interesting.. not tonight.. we're having a snow storm so i need shut eye for the morning snow removal... haha 
the Gospel is WANTED by the people in 52 Countries but made illegal by their Government

Woodpecker52

I wonder if anyone has thought about a simple rank and pinion with stop set for raising and lowering the head. If to much weight on the head then spring and counterweight.  The point is to get it to zero resistance.  Woodmizer I think has a spring system in their LT15 head beams.  Any way just looking at the rack and pinion on my drill press stand got me thinking. On my simple Lt 15 start it is just basically a hand winch machine with dial stops turning a fixed 1 inch sprocket to bottom 3 inch sprocket by #40 roller chain with no spring or counter resistance assists. Anyway just thinking out loud,  I think the jackshaft and roller chain and sprockets are the way to go with dc gearmotor.  Ones that are used on assembly production lines etc.  Ebay has a ton of gear reduction units.  I also noticed on some of the European units they are using gearmotors to raise some of the heads.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

charles mann

Quote from: Woodpecker52 on February 24, 2019, 10:59:47 PM
I wonder if anyone has thought about a simple rank and pinion with stop set for raising and lowering the head. If to much weight on the head then spring and counterweight.  The point is to get it to zero resistance.  Woodmizer I think has a spring system in their LT15 head beams.  Any way just looking at the rack and pinion on my drill press stand got me thinking. On my simple Lt 15 start it is just basically a hand winch machine with dial stops turning a fixed 1 inch sprocket to bottom 3 inch sprocket by #40 roller chain with no spring or counter resistance assists. Anyway just thinking out loud,  I think the jackshaft and roller chain and sprockets are the way to go with dc gearmotor.  Ones that are used on assembly production lines etc.  Ebay has a ton of gear reduction units.  I also noticed on some of the European units they are using gearmotors to raise some of the heads.
the gear boxes WM uses on their 30-70 models are kind of a rack and pinion style, of more so, a helical/worm gear style gb. 
Cast Iron Worm Gearboxes | AutomationDirect
so instead of both the ring and pinion having a spiral bevel gear, its a straight tooth gear on the o/p, and a worm/cock screw on the input. 
as for a spring, i was thinking about doing that, but i don't think i will need it. 
I'm just trying NOT to have grab the back vert supports, which is my i was thinking of using another jackshaft and roller chain. 
I'm sure its over kill, but #40 double roller on all 4 corners should do the trick. plus i will put a turn buckle or eyebolt on each end of the chain for fine tuning and not running out of tensioning adjustment as fast. 
iv got 2 solid 9' sections of left over 2x8x1/4" sq tubing from my first frame bed build that i had to cut apart and start over. i think that should work for part of the eng support structure. just have to get the idle wheel box and band wheel installed to see how high i need the structure above the saw beam to clear the blade and guards. I'm hopping by the end of my off schedule, to have the sawed guides built, the idle box and wheel installed and the eng yarded out and a start on the support structure and determine which direction the eng rotates and move my idle wheel to the opposite side so I'm pull the wet noodle, not pushing it. then send the carriage off to the machine shop to get the drive axle housing and shaft built, along with the eng output shaft pulley bushing ordered and a shaft machined. hopefully in the 2 wks I'm at work, ill have all the pieces to assemble when i get hm and get the eng in place and mocked up, along with my carriage cross supports cut and tacked in place. iv learned to ONLY tack everything in place, in case i have to change/mod something, I'm not spending hrs grinding welds off. once mocked up and have my ducks in line, ill weld it all up and paint it. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Woodpecker52

Smart Idea to tack weld set it up right then finish welds, sure is hard to correct a long weld done in error.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

charles mann

so I'm still kicking around the idea of using a winch to lift the saw beam. but i was also looking on surplus center and was kicking the idea of using an aluminum 30:1 RGB that has an output tq of 3632 in lbs, which is 302 ft lbs. if i go with, say a 14 teeth #60 sprocket on RGB, to a 60 teeth #60 at the jackshaft, that should multiply my output tq to the jackshaft by 4x correct, at the same time, reducing my speed by 4x, correct? after looking at build of the guy from NZ, and using acme rod, i figured going that, well, made my mind up to go that way, till i found out i could only get the rod in either 6' or 12' increments, pretty much from every place i found, except 1 place that wanted $25/6" for their 4140 1.5"-4 rods. so now I'm back to either a winch or using the RGB and sprocket/chain for either. would that 302 ft lbs, or 4x that if my math is correct, be enough to lift and hold a 1200-1400 lb unit? i know a 2500 lb winch will, was just wanting the ability to lift faster after exiting the cut by using a 12v dc electric motor and a pot to control speed. but if that RGB doesn't have umpf to lift and hold, then the winch it is. 

also, by coming of the jackshaft with a 60 tooth, then stepping down to say a 30 on the same shaft, at each end, down to my sawhead, then going around say a 12-14 tooth idle sprocket, then around another idle sprocket at the bottom of my carriage, then back up the bottom of the sawhead. would that just throw all the speed reduction and tq increase out the window? iv tried finding these calculation on the inter web, but I'm at a lost.
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Vautour

..... I've tried several gear box with different ratios on mine but still not satisfied with the "lifting speed".....since i'm using 24v i'm limited on power... my next try is using a 24 volt electric motor from a forklift instead of a treadmill motor... with the weight of your unit ..you might have to go hydraulic tapped into that diesel power... my two cents  
the Gospel is WANTED by the people in 52 Countries but made illegal by their Government

charles mann

@Vautour

Im going with 1.5" acme rods and basically the same set up as the builder i got the plans from but with a much higher tq rating on the rgb, but a lower ratio to increase raise/lower speeds and control the down with a pot. Iv gotta find that sweet spot in motor rpm-ration to i can run at 80% capacity w/o burning out the motor prematurely. Im trying to stay away from hydraulics for now, but if i have to, ill get a continuous run 12 motor to run a pump just for raise and lower, and maybe enough flow to add carriage travel at a later time. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

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