Firewood seasonoing. Red oak

[Kwill]

I wondering your guys take on seasoning wood particularly red oak and post oak. I usually cut around this time of the year for next seasons wood burning. I have a shed I try to get filled up so I have a good start on the winters wood. It stays dry in the shed but I wondering how much it actually seasons over being stacked outside? Nice thing is it never gets wet but on the down side it doesn't get the wind and sun on it. Which do you think would be better?

[uplander]

 Red/black oak makes up the bulk of my furnace fuel. I stack two rows with space in between on a line of pallets.
It is covered with old rubber roofing on top but not the sides. It takes me at least 2 years and sometimes 3 to get that down to less than 20% moisture content.

[jaygtree]

i burn mostly red oak. i use to cut and stack it outside uncovered and let it dry for three years before restacking it in a woodshed.  now i leave it sit in a pile and cover it with a large tarp that has a lot of holes in it. then i stack it in my wood shed. have not noticed any difference other than the covered wood is not as dirty, no fall leaves, and i save on handling.  jg

[gspren]

  I think it dries a little quicker in my wood shed but it's just a roof, no sides, so the wind still gets through and with the dark green metal roof it gets hotter at roof height which draws air up through the stacks when the air is still, at least that's my theory. If your shed has sides you need to get some big openings for the summer.

[Kwill]

I've noticed on mine in the past that was put in the shed burned really good but still had some weight to it. Not as bad as green wood but not like a couple year seasoned. I think when I get the mill done I'm going to mill out some cedars and make a wood shed with just a roof and no sides. Kinda like a carport. That way its not out directly in the rain but will still get the wind blowing through it.

[Al_Smith]

Red oak while good firewood is one of them you need to be timely about .If it sits any length in the rounds heaped up in a pile it will rot .White oak is much more forgiving in that situation .
Maple,red oak and hickory don't do well if left in logs or rounds in contact with the ground for long periods of time .
One of the trimmers over about a year dropped of about 12-15 cords in the round of oaks etc .Nice guy Al let him store in my woods under the idea it was to be split,stacked for him to sell .6 years later it's still there >:( .I went through some of it and at least half the red oak oak ended up on my burn pile .What a waste

[Blue Noser]

My family has always followed a similar path as you have described. We cut, split, and pile our firewood starting in late November to mid December and aim to be completed by February/March. The stacked wood then seasons in the elements until mid-late Summer (August-September) at which time it is piled in the woodshed and/or sold. Our summers are often on the drier side, with significant rains only coming every week or two, or sometimes longer, so we wait for a dry spell before moving the wood into our shed. It would take a significant and prolonged rainfall to soak all the way through a pile which has been out in the wind/sun drying for several months.

We have never had any complaints from our customers, nor issues ourselves. My family has been following this method for many generations.

Edit. We are not fortunate enough to have red oak to use as firewood (while a prevalent tree in the province, it is not on our woodlot). For hardwoods we mainly use red maple, yellow birch, white birch and some sugar maple. We also burn/sell a lot of softwoods including balsam fir, white/red/black spruce, and eastern larch. The softwood is sold at a discount, say 1/3 less than the hardwood.

[Wood Shed]

Air circulation is key to the drying process.  Over the years I have experiences everything from using basement in house storage to monster tarp covered outside wood mountains randomly stacked with an elevator.  Now using a wood shed (pole structure) lined with 5/4 boards to keep wood away from the sides and provide plenty space for air circulation.  Just wish I had taken the time to put in a floor to allow air space on all sides, got in too big a hurry to get it filled. 

[John Mc]

Most of the hardwood species I cut for firewood here in VT I can get to dry to down below 20% moisture content by the start of the heating season even if I cut it late spring/early summer IF I stack it in single rows, uncovered, out exposed to the sun and wind. (and yes, I did get really OCD about it early on and borrowed a moisture meter while I experimented with different methods of storage for seasoning. I even got to the point where I would occasionally resplit a piece to check the MC in the middle).

The key to this was the single rows and out exposed to the sun and wind. I'd put it in the lean-to off the back of my garage (open on 3 sides) just before heating season started. If I put it in that lean-to while it was green, there was no way it would be under 20% by heating season.

The only species that this does not work for seems to be Oak. I really need at least 2 summers to get that stuff dry enough. I've heard that Black Locust may be similar to Oak in this regard, but I've not burned much of it (and that stuff was 2 or 3 years old when I burned it).

[Kwill]

I've never checked the moisture content on any I've cut. Not exactly sure how to go about doing that. I cut in the winter and put in the shed. It always burns good in the outdoor wood burner. I may try leaving a rank or 2 out side uncovered stacked up and see how it does next winter.

[John Mc]

I've never checked the moisture content on any I've cut. Not exactly sure how to go about doing that. I cut in the winter and put in the shed. It always burns good in the outdoor wood burner. I may try leaving a rank or 2 out side uncovered stacked up and see how it does next winter.

I borrowed a moisture meter. Tried it over the course of 2 years as I was experimenting with different methods of drying and storing. I don't use a meter anymore. I was just interested in testing out the claims that so many people make about the best way to deal with firewood.

Not sure how much difference you'll see in an OWB, but I could sure see (and feel) the difference when burning wood in my wood stove. When the wood was properly dried (I averaged around 15% moisture content), my little wood stove could keep up with my need for heat on 2 stories of my house on all but an extended spell of well below 0˚F weather. When it wasn't properly dry, it really struggled to keep up.

[Kwill]

I burn a mixture of seasoned, green and dead solid wood. Has always kept up with my heating needs

[gspren]

  I probably burn 90% oak in my OWB and while it will tolerate almost anything I burn less if it is seasoned. Much of the oak I cut is standing dead and it's good the next year but when I cut a live one I do aim for 2 years. The other 10% is cherry and some years a very small amount of locust, they seem OK in one year.

[Footloose64]

The problem with burning wood with any amount of moisture, although impossible to avoid (down to 0%), is that you'll burn more wood, a fact of nature.  In order for wood fibers to burn, they have to first be brought to 0% moisture, then they can turn to combustible vapors.  The method of reducing to 0% occurs within your burning device by boiling to steam that moisture by the already burning wood that's been in there prior and turning to vapor.  That means heat being generated from one log is being consumed by the adjacent log, so to speak, to dry the newest to steam.  That's why John Mc's little stove has trouble keeping up on a cold day with less than dry wood.  Simple mechanics, but not so evident when you're sitting in front of a nice wood stove.

[mike_belben]

Simple solution, stack the next days wood around the OUTSIDE of the stove.  

As was mentioned, fully tarping red oak will make it grow mushrooms in a hurry, it needs air to blow that swamp clear.  My advise is find some old barn tin, stack your stuff wherever you live and nail or screw tin over the stack so a few big pieces hold it down.   I prefer a slightly pitched roof shape to shed most water instead of dripping it all into the pile.


I stack ontop long pallets.  If i go double row (4 face cords) the center dont dry near as good so i leave a foot now.

[John Mc]

The problem with burning wood with any amount of moisture, although impossible to avoid (down to 0%), is that you'll burn more wood, a fact of nature.  In order for wood fibers to burn, they have to first be brought to 0% moisture, then they can turn to combustible vapors.  The method of reducing to 0% occurs within your burning device by boiling to steam that moisture by the already burning wood that's been in there prior and turning to vapor.  That means heat being generated from one log is being consumed by the adjacent log, so to speak, to dry the newest to steam.  That's why John Mc's little stove has trouble keeping up on a cold day with less than dry wood.  Simple mechanics, but not so evident when you're sitting in front of a nice wood stove.

A little known fact of wood combustion: There is such a thing as too dry. You want some moisture in the wood to help regulate the burning process. My former business partner, who is a real wood combustion guru could explain all the chemistry and thermodynamics of what is going on, but much of it goes over my head.

[Rebarb]

I burn 90% Oak and cut everything this year and burn it next year.....store the split wood in metal shed with roof and no sides.
If anything, it may be a little to dry but mix a little green with it for longer burns...OWB.

[John Mc]

I burn 90% Oak and cut everything this year and burn it next year.....store the split wood in metal shed with roof and no sides.
If anything, it may be a little to dry but mix a little green with it for longer burns...OWB.

Where are you located? That sure does not work in my neck of the woods. We don;t have much of a drying season here in VT... not that it stops some people from burning it anyway, and smoking up the neighborhood.

[Rebarb]

I burn 90% Oak and cut everything this year and burn it next year.....store the split wood in metal shed with roof and no sides.
If anything, it may be a little to dry but mix a little green with it for longer burns...OWB.

Where are you located? That sure does not work in my neck of the woods. We don;t have much of a drying season here in VT... not that it stops some people from burning it anyway, and smoking up the neighborhood.

I'm at altitude, dryer air.
Never heard of 3 years of seasoning round here but completely respect others preferred methods of burning clean wood.

[John Mc]

I'm at altitude, dryer air. Never heard of 3 years of seasoning round here but completely respect others preferred methods of burning clean wood.

It doesn't take me 3 years. Most species I can get dry to around 15% MC over one summer of drying. Oak generally takes me two.

[Al_Smith]

I think some of you are missing the point .If you want a hot fire you have to burn smaller wood .You can't expect to burn 10-12" rounds of oak and get a hot fire.You'll get a long one though if that's what you want .

[John Mc]

I think some of you are missing the point .If you want a hot fire you have to burn smaller wood .You can't expect to burn 10-12" rounds of oak and get a hot fire.You'll get a long one though if that's what you want .

Some folks make fun of my wood pile as being "mostly kindling". It's not quite that bad: I tend to shoot for 3 to 4", with occasional 6" pieces for when I need a longer burn. But then I'm burning in a 60,000 BTU wood stove, not a massive outdoor wood boiler.

[thecfarm]

I've had more than one tell me I can't burn that. :  But they don't complain when they come in the house and it's nice and warm. ;) My choice of wood has always been differant than most. Now with the OWB I can leave the good wood and burn the wood that I can't burn. ;D

[Rebarb]

I've noticed this is not really an Apples to Apples comparison. 
Some of us use OWB's where we don't have to be as particular, fearing a chimney fire.

I realize the properly seasoned wood produces maximum Btu's but my findings show much faster burn times when compared to mixing in some less seasoned wood or wet wood.

The theory behind this could easily be lower flame until moisture is burned off.

[thecfarm]

Not that it matters,but most of mine is well seasoned. Been standing dead for years.  

[mike_belben]

Ive heard it all, and defied it all without issue.  Conventional wisdom can actually be a wives tale sometime.  

Ive burned wet hardwood, wet pine, pure waste vegetable oil, WVO and sawdust in manufactured stoves, modified stoves and home made stoves of conventional and rocket configuration.  10 years and never did a brush touch my chimney.   Meanwhile my buddy who is "following the rules" brushes 2x per season and has black tar DRIPPING off the riser elbow onto the floor.  Yeah, looks great.  

You want creasote?  Damper that stove down to a 300 stack and youll have all you want, just like my buddy.

I routinely ran my stack up to dull orange with sparks coming out the roof to keep it clean. No chimney fires, no house fires.  Occasionally need to open a window.  

[Tin Horse]

I agree with Mike. My Caddy wood furnace requires a standard  barometric damper by code. My furnace is EPA rated. Problem was that stack temp was low. Furnace has lots of outside make up air. Creosote dripped from the pipes. Closed off the damper years ago and it runs clean. I also burn a lot of red oak. Barely seasoned a year. I check the stove and pipes but it requires nothing in the chimney. There are a lot of variables with wood burning and it's often the user with the problem.

[mike_belben]

I chalk it up to a cold flue being the root of all evil.  


Makeup air is probably a close 2nd.  

[John Mc]

I chalk it up to a cold flue being the root of all evil.  


Makeup air is probably a close 2nd.  

Agreed. However, burning unseasoned wood and smothering the fire by choking off the combustion are are two of the biggest culprits in causing a cold flue. That doesn't mean you can't get a hot fire with green wood. You just have to work at it a bit more than with seasoned wood.  I will say that you are wasting BTUs burning green wood: as much as 40% of the BTUs in the wood. You can't get around the fact that you have to heat up all that water, and even more significant, vaporize that water (driving water from liquid to gas takes a LOT of energy). Further, a cold smoldery fire - whatever is causing it - wastes BTUs because some of those gases which are the products of wood combustion will not ignite at lower temperatures, you are just letting them go up your flue, or leaving them to condense as creosote on your flue. A catalytic stove or boiler helps with this, if you first get it up to temperature to ignite those gases. Once ignited, the catalyst will help keep them burning at somewhat lower temperatures.

I'll be the first to admit that maximizing BTUs per load of wood is not always someone's primary objective. Sometimes it's minimizing labor involved in dealing with firewood, or minimizing the time it takes from cutting to burning the wood, or getting a stove to burn through the night without reloading.

[mike_belben]

I dont disagree with you at all.  Ive just never had a sane or stable enough life for wood burning details to ever make front page.  

Stoves lit.  On to the next problem. 

[New sawyer]

I burn in an owb . I split in the spring  to burn in the winter . I burn what ever the tree guys drop off in the yard and some wood I cut from my own lot . I store my wood in a 40' shipping container and there is always condensation on the ceiling . I cut pine logs into cookies 6' long and don't split them . It's a lot less work , and the dry quicker. I love oak but it takes along time to season properly . The problem is time . Working 50 hrs a week and maintaining my land ,house and equipment leaves less time for firewood . 

[eamassey]

Firewood seasoning is hardly even in my vocabulary.  I've lived with wood as my primary heat source for at least 65 of my seventy-two years.  I have three wood stoves --  all Ashleys. My primary stove was bought new by me in 1977.  That is about 40 years service.  I burn mostly standing dead trees the first part of the winter until I run out-- then green wood.  Sometimes I burn wood the day it was cut. I never did own a chimney brush--but I do check the pipe out two or three times per winter-- nothing to be done, except, at the first (fall) inspection I always have to knock down a few dirt dobber nests.   I do always clean the aluminum rain cap, as it is simple stamped aluminum and plates out with black (dry) deposit.  I burn mostly oaks, some hickory-- never any softwoods.

My flue pipe is "Metalbestos" brand double wall pipe in 30" sections, 1977 vintage, so it is most likely real asbestos.  To me in my location--that is, not as cold as many of you see, control and long-burn are more important than ultimate heat generation.  In fact, if I had all standing dead wood, I would go out and cut some green wood for added control and burn time.  My night time procedure is to burn hot for about 30 minutes before bedtime, rake down, and load full with wood-to include a big round one that will just go in the door.  The house is always warm in the morning and I just rake the ashes out of the coals and it is a roaring fire in a few minutes.  

A note on emissions-yours may be better than mine.  It is not very critical in my case, with low population density and we own everything around us for a good distance. 

[doctorb]

I, too, have a moisture meter, but I rarely use it anymore.  My advice is to find some space, either outside or in a shed, or both, and prep 2 year's supply of wood.  After the first year, you will have to prep only one year's supply each year, staying one full year ahead. Each year's fuel thereafter will have, dependent upon when during the year you put the wood up, two full spring-summer-fall seasons (and one winter) to dry.  So I try and have all my wood prep done by April 1 of each spring.  This has worked well for me.  I burn 80% oak, with a bunch of it being red oak.  MC on most of what I burn is 17-18%.

I stack half under cover in the shed with the OWB and half outside exposed to the elements.  When the weather is nice, I use the outside stacks.  When it's yucky, I stay nice and dry and use the shed wood.

[John Mc]

Doctorb -

Are you drying your Red Oak through two summers, or one? If it's one, I suspect  your drying season in MD is a whole lot longer than ours in VT. I've just not had luck getting Red Oak to dry here if it's only gone through one summer as cut split and stacked wood.

[doctorb]

Sorry.  I must not have detailed that too well, John.

I put up 90% oak this spring that will be used in November 2019.  So my wood will dry all this summer, as well as all the next summer.  You and I agree that one summer is not enough to season green red oak.

[John Mc]

Sorry.  I must not have detailed that too well, John.

I put up 90% oak this spring that will be used in November 2019.  So my wood will dry all this summer, as well as all the next summer.  You and I agree that one summer is not enough to season green red oak.

In rereading your post, there is no lack of clarity there. The shortcoming was in my own addled brain.

[olcowhand]

We cut and split mostly Beech, Maple and Ash, with a little Ironwood and occasional Cherry.
We're fortunate this year to say all our wood for this winter is put up, and working on Fall '19. Usually we're cutting deadfalls and blow downs in February and March- with only an indoor Furnace for heat. I shut off the Propane furnace when my girls learned that it was easier to turn up the thermostat than stoke the fire (10 years ago, and the furnace hasn't come on since).
Most of our wood is stacked on pallets, with a tarp on the top, leaving the sides open to the prevailing westerly wind. Most years, our wood doesn't get much more than a couple months to dry. We clean the pipe 2-3 times a winter.
Not the best use of this valuable resource, but it suffices....
Good thread; Let's keep it going. Some of your good advice might "Soak in" (old saying...). 

[John Mc]

Ash is probably one of the best to burn if you don't have time for it to fully season. It starts off with one of the lowest moisture contents of any of the "prime" hardwoods. Beech is probably second on that list (though it makes an even better firewood when it's fully seasoned).

Wood is our primary heat source. We heat 2000+ sq ft with a single woods stove, burning fully seasoned wood. We clean our flue once a year, whether it needs it or not. In a "bad" year, we'll get a little over a quart of crap out of our 20' flue when we clean it.

[olcowhand]

"Ash wood wet or ash wood dry, a King can warm his stockings by..." (Old saying).
I normally would not be cutting ash, but they're all dead. I liked having them in the woods, as they seem to be magnets for the elusive Morel (a mushroom much sought after here).

[uplander]

Doctorb -

Are you drying your Red Oak through two summers, or one? If it's one, I suspect  your drying season in MD is a whole lot longer than ours in VT. I've just not had luck getting Red Oak to dry here if it's only gone through one summer as cut split and stacked wood.

This. There is no way I can get away with burning any oak drying during only one summer. It will creosote my flue like you cannot believe if I try it. Generally I let my oak season three full years before I burn it. It took many years for me to get there but I am finally there.  I have had much better luck with faster drying times with beech and even hickory.

[Tom Caroselli]

I have a tree service business and red oak is a big portion of our daily removals. I also heat my home with wood. Both ways will work for you, but the wood in the shed if it doesn't get the wind might take a little longer to dry. Buy yourself a moisture letter, and keep a log book.

[doctorb]

Tom-  Welcome to the Forum!

We agree and I think it's time for a little experiment.

I am cutting and splitting a red oak (I assume.  I'll also get pics of the wood.  It's not a tree that I have ID'ed closely before.) that blew over in a storm about 3 months ago.  It was a healthy live tree.  I will take one of the 18 inch rounds and split it into 6 triangular shaped pieces.  Each will have a radius of bark attached.  I will mark the bark so I don't lose track.

I'll measure the MC after splitting, which should be very high.  (I have read here that MC is inaccurate on most meters when it's extremely high.)  I'll report that here.  I'll place a couple of the pieces on top of my outside wood stacks (fully exposed to wind / sun / rain) that will not be used for at least 18 months from now, providing 2 summers, 2 falls, 1 winter and 1 spring of seasoning.  I'll place the others inside the shed, one within one of this year's "green" stacks and another on top of the same stack.  I'll take pics to give you guys some idea of the different environments for these pieces.

Hopefully I'll write this stuff down, not turn senile, and let the wood season until December 2019.  Then I'll split the pieces and measure the MC.   We will get some idea how much the shed experience effects the MC.  I would tend to agree with your assumption regarding seasoning inside of the shed.

It's a long time to have a reminder string tied around a finger....

[hedgerow]

We load and stack wood off the splitter on dump trailers and I store the trailers in metal pole sheds that get very hot in the summer. Usually we load the trailers in the spring or summer and burn the wood late in the winter or the next fall it always seems to be dry when I burn it. 

[doctorb]

All who are interested....I have started the experiment on firewood seasoning.  I took the liberty to post pics of the firewood involved in the Tree, Plant, and Wood I.D section, to verify the species of tree that I will be testing.  

Please verify species in Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.

Once confirmed, I will detail the experiment and provide pics here.  I am not trying to confuse people by posting in two different threads, but I believe that the folks interested in tree ID are not necessarily the same folks interested in firewood seasoning.  And I wanted a confirmed answer as to the tree species before continuing the experiment.

[cutterboy]

doctor, that is an interesting experiment you've started. Hopefully we will all live to see the results.
   I looked at the pictures of the wood and believe it is a red oak. There are a few varieties of red oak, black oak being one of them. I think they all dry and burn about the same.

 

[doctorb]

Here's my set-up.  A three-sided shed with one small window, and different cribs to hold firewood.

 



 

I split a single round into 6 pieces and sprayed some paint on the bark to help me remember where they are located.  MC = 26%



 


I placed 3 pieces outside and 3 inside the shed.  2 of the outside pieces will sit on top of an existing woodstack, with full exposure to sun and wind and rain/snow.  Like this:



 

The other outside piece is buried in the stack



 



I did the same thing inside the shed, with two pieces on top of a stack, and one buried inside the stack.  No sunlight will reach these logs.

 I will wait 18 months, which is how long (minimum) I let wood season.  We will see if there is any measurable difference in the MC of these 4 different positions of the logs.  Somebody remind me in December 2019!

[KEC]

Red Oak (and some other species), when cut in the spring, if the outside of the log is relatively defect-free, and you score the bark lengthwise with a chainsaw, can be de-barked with an axe. Yes, this can be a bit labor-intensive, but bark-free wood dries faster and burns better and fewer bugs. Anyone else do this ?

[TKehl]

Wow Doc B!  I am in awe!  
 
I knew my setup was kind of redneck, have seen some nicer setups, and have thought about adding a carport around my outdoor burner.  However, looking at your setup, the only comparison that comes to mind comes from a podcast I've been listening to about Genghis Kahn and his descendants attacking Europe in the early middle ages.  "Not only were they better than the European armies, but they brought tactics and technology that the Europeans didn't even know existed.  It's like they came down from a higher plane."
 
We burn standing dead and deadfall almost exclusively as we have more of that than we can keep up with.  No sense cutting live trees other than in fencelines.  As such there is a lot of wood that goes straight from our trailers to the woodstove.  I felt real good about myself when I had last winters wood cut and stacked by mid October, covered with used tin laid on top and weighted down.  ;D
 
KEC:  As for debarking, I find if you leave a dead tree standing two-three years, the bark comes off easily and often on it's own.   :D

[doctorb]

TKehl-

Thanks, but it's not that amazing.  This shed was an old 3-stall "barn".  The previous owner added a real barn to it, making it unused space.  I just removed a few of the stall partitions, changed the roofline a bit, and....there you go.  It's an old structure whose life expectancy was "extended".  I do like being protected from the rain / snow when I visit on cold winter evenings.  And I appreciate not having to knock snow and ice off the fuel just to be able to extract it from the stacks and throw into the stove.

[olcowhand]

 
 It's on my calendar......

[John Mc]

doctorb -

I suspect your moisture meter will not read accurately over about 25% (that's common in a lot of meters designed for woodworking use, which focus on the low end of the scale). Fresh cut Red Oak has a much higher moisture content. Even if it blew over 3 months ago, it's unlikely it would be down to 26% by now (especially if it spent a good bit of that time still in tree length). If it were down to 26%, I'd expect to be seeing checking in the ends.

I've always been told the proper method is a comparison of the weight of the water to the weight of the dry wood, so if the water weighs the same as the wood, that would be 100% moisture content. In this case, it's possible to have more than 100% moisture content. Most of the studies I've read seem to use this method

Another method I've heard people argue in favor of is to compare the weight of the water to the total weight of the piece. In this case, in the example above, where the water weight equals the wood weight, the moisture content would be called 50%. Intuitively, this method makes more sense to most people: If it's 50% moisture content, then half the weight of this piece is water. However, this does not seem to be the method commonly in use.

By the first method, Moisture content in fresh cut logs ranges from 45 to more than 200%. I've read somewhere that Red Oak is generally in the mid 80% range, but I can't swear to that. Most wood dries relatively quickly to the fiber saturation point (FSP varies by species, but generally around 25-30%). That's the point where the "free water" in the cells is out of the wood. Drying below the FSP takes more time, as water is being removed from the cell walls. Generally, no shrinkage takes place while free water is being lost. The shrinkage happens as you go below the FSP. So if you are seeing cracks appear in the wood, at least parts of it are getting below the FSP.

Some light reading on the subject, if you get bored:
Wood and Moisture Relationships, by James Reeb

[doctorb]

So, are you suggesting that I weigh each piece now, and compare the weight to that of Dec 2019?  I could easily do that.  It would represent a percent of total weight lost, and may give a different degree of "seasoning" than the moisture meter.

And, yes, the tree was untouched until about 4 weeks ago when I started the buck it and move the rounds down to my wood stove area.  It's as green as can be.

[John Mc]

Whether to weigh or not is up to you. The meter should read accurately as you get into lower moisture content ranges. Just letting you know that if the tree is as green as you describe, it's certainly well over 26% MC

[doctorb]

Got it.  Thanks.

[lirachamo51]

i cut in mid winter when roads are frozen and can skid out without all the dirt getting into the bark, which makes for a lot of chain sharpening when bucking. split in early summer and it burns fine in the fall. keep it tarped after september ,so snow and ice don't build up on it. only burn about 10 cords a year in camp, house, evaporator. never had an issue with creosote building in chimney's . cut a variety of hard and soft...oak,maple ( hard and soft), white ,yellow and black birch, hickory, wp,hemlock to mix in the evaporator to keep the boil from dropping off.

[32vld]

My son has a wood burning oven on his pizza truck.
pizzarita.org, it is a 1946 Chevrolet 2 ton former farm truck.

I split white and red oak, that is the only wood he uses, and then
stack it in rows 4' high by 24'four feet long. The rows are
stacked 3' feet apart. The wood is in an area that gets shade
though plenty of air.

The wood is not covered. I wish I had a roof over then to keep
the direct rain and snow off and they would stay cleaner.

When I get the rounds I try to split them before they sit for one
month. Though there have been a few times were they sat for
3 to 4 months before I get them split. The rounds are stacked
bark side to the ground so the ends are exposed to the air.
The rows of rounds are stacked 3' apart. Height depends on
how heavy the rounds are.

My moisture meter says that after one year the ends are 14% and
when I re-split a piece the moisture reads 22% in the middle.

Green the moisture measured is 48% when the round is first split.

[32vld]

Red Oak (and some other species), when cut in the spring, if the outside of the log is relatively defect-free, and you score the bark lengthwise with a chainsaw, can be de-barked with an axe. Yes, this can be a bit labor-intensive, but bark-free wood dries faster and burns better and fewer bugs. Anyone else do this ?

When splitting white and red oak I never remove the bark
unless it appears that is will come off easily when splitting.
Visible gap where a axe will fit in an one tap and the bark
is off.

Less insects is a plus though I do not bring the barked pieces
into my fire place. Also I split many large diameter rounds
in the 18" to 36" so there is a high yield of no bark pieces.
I never used the moisture meter to see if the pieces that had
bark had a higher moisture content than the interior pieces.

Being that the outer grow rings have more sap flow it would
appear that pieces split from that section would have a higher
moisture content due to their location and having bark does
not cause the higher moisture content. Just my guess. Not
a scientist.

[mike_belben]

Bark is the devil, all the crawly stuff and all the fungus lives just under it.  Once bark is gone, ants is the only other thing that might be in there and theyre pretty easy to spot.  A debarked woodpile lasts a lot longer without rotting.

[32vld]

Just started using a log splitting. So I now take off the bark
as part of the splitting process. Cleaner wood, get rid of the 
insects.

[doctorb]

Update on the wood seasoning experiment.  (See explanation Reply # 41.)

The guru's over in the Tree ID section believe that this is actually a Chestnut Oak, and not a Red Oak.  Doesn't really change the experiment.

Please verify species in Tree, Plant and Wood I.D.  See pics of wood at top of thread.

I got a little worried that the logs, especially the pieces exposed to the sun, might have their identifying yellow paint fade by December 2019, so I nailed a large washer into the ends of each log.  I don't think I'd miss that before I threw it into the OWB.

So now we just let nature take its course.

[John Mc]

I did an experiment just like this some years ago. I was trying to find out how much difference it makes stacking wood in a single row exposed to sun and wind, in a triple row with 3 rows stacked right next to each other - also exposed to sun and wind, or under firewood shed (open on three sides, multiple rows stacked about 6" apart). Other than the roof on the shed, everything else was uncovered. The shed has a gravel floor, the rest were laid on poles to keep it up off the ground. Species were Beech, Red Maple, some Sugar Maple, Oak (red & white) and Black Birch.

I wish I had kept the data, but it has been lost over time. I do recall the general results:

For most of the species I tracked, I could easily get below 20% (most was in the 15% range) with one summer of drying if stacked in single rows. I could even wait until June or July to cut split and stack and still be ready to burn by late fall. The exception was Oak, which was higher MC and hard to light that fall. It really needs to season 2 summers (at least in my drying conditions here in VT).

In the triple rows, it was hit or miss if I could get it dry in one summer, but most of the non-oak wood in the outside rows was in decent shape.

The slowest drying was in my shed, even though it was open on three sides. Some of the stuff that was fresh-cut green developed mold. It did eventually dry, but other than the outer row, nothing cut that spring was as dry as I like it in order to use that fall. No problems with rot, however.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with, Dr b

[32vld]

It makes me wonder when people say two to three years to
season oak just how long do they let the rounds sit before
they split them and to what size do they split the firewood 
pieces.

My son has a pizza truck with a wood fired oven. He has
been running his truck for four years.

We use only oak. Started burning mostly red, now we use almost
all white. Firewood is 16" to 17" length. Most of the wood is split
to about a 2" x 3" cross section.

I have a 6.5' x 15' trailer to get the wood. So a trailer load of
rounds will be split in 2 to 4 weeks.

The wood is stacked 4' high by 24' long in a shady but open
area, uncovered. Rows are 3' apart to easily run a wheel barrow
through them.

Moisture meter reading of 14% on the ends and 21% when 
the wood is re-split to check the middle moisture content after
one year of drying.

[John Mc]

I need two summers of drying to reliably get Red Oak down to below 20% average MC. Cut to 16", split to roughly 3"x3" or 3" x 4", and stack in the spring, single rows (i.e. at least several feet between them) open to the sun and wind, uncovered until just before heating season. Most species will be ready to burn (+/- 15% MC) by that fall.

Not Oak. It's not ready until the following heating season. Can I get it to burn after just that one summer? Sure. But it's harder to get started, burns less cleanly, and does not give off as much heat as if I let it fully dry.

I suspect if I got an early enough start in the late summer or fall, I might by able to get it there in only slightly over a year, but I've never done much testing of that.

I'm guessing the difference may be either the time of year that the Oak is cut, or the fact that your drying season is probably a bit longer on Long Island than in my part of VT.

[32vld]

I have split all my oak with a splitting axe. So I never would have
enough firewood put up to season to more than 1 year ahead.

This September I finally bought a log splitter and have a source
for white oak so I hope to be able to try seasoning the oak for
a longer time so my son and I can see what difference there is
burning in his wood fired oven.

Also he is looking to open a store in addition to his truck so I will
need to have enough wood on hand to supply him.

Another thing is I am thinking of using a hoop shed with a canvas
over the top because his wood has to be clean for the fire is on 
the floor of the oven to keep dirt off the pizza.

Now the lower rows of wood get splashed with dirt from the rain.
Slows up the loading time cleaning the wood. And the bottom two
rows are so dirty that the have to be restacked like a log cabin
out in the open so the rain washes all the dirt off of them before 
they can be used.

I wood leave the ends of the hoop shed open and the sides have
a opening about 2' between the canvas and the ground.

[thecfarm]

32vld,I doubt many of us is splitting down to 2-3 inches for firewood. Yours should dry quicker than a stove wood size of wood,which I think would be at least 6 inches across.
Good idea on the hoop house.
I wonder,room wise,if you could dry it like lumber. Lay down 2 pieces,like stickers,than a layer of wood than stickers and so on. That would give you more airflow,I would think.
More thinking,would that black weed control allow airflow but help keep the rain off the ends?

[olcowhand]

Tom-  Welcome to the Forum!

We agree and I think it's time for a little experiment.

I am cutting and splitting a red oak (I assume.  I'll also get pics of the wood.  It's not a tree that I have ID'ed closely before.) that blew over in a storm about 3 months ago.  It was a healthy live tree.  I will take one of the 18 inch rounds and split it into 6 triangular shaped pieces.  Each will have a radius of bark attached.  I will mark the bark so I don't lose track.

I'll measure the MC after splitting, which should be very high.  (I have read here that MC is inaccurate on most meters when it's extremely high.)  I'll report that here.  I'll place a couple of the pieces on top of my outside wood stacks (fully exposed to wind / sun / rain) that will not be used for at least 18 months from now, providing 2 summers, 2 falls, 1 winter and 1 spring of seasoning.  I'll place the others inside the shed, one within one of this year's "green" stacks and another on top of the same stack.  I'll take pics to give you guys some idea of the different environments for these pieces.

Hopefully I'll write this stuff down, not turn senile, and let the wood season until December 2019.  Then I'll split the pieces and measure the MC.   We will get some idea how much the shed experience effects the MC.  I would tend to agree with your assumption regarding seasoning inside of the shed.

It's a long time to have a reminder string tied around a finger....

@doctorb, the alarm went off on your experiment Saturday (12/14/19). I for one, am anxiously awaiting the results. Have you had time to split and check the moisture content yet?
Steve

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes, do tell we are waiting with baited breath. ;D

[doctorb]

Thank you guys for the reminder.  We've had a couple of very wet rainy/snow days here, with another to follow tomorrow.  I assure you, I am not trying to skew the results, but I see no reason to split wood and perform the final readings in the rain.

The experiment remains intact.  The logs have not been moved from their various locations, and we will see if these locations have made any difference in the measured moisture content sometime this week.

Thanks for your continued interest.

[Rebarb]

Didn't take time to read through all posts, sorry.
Oak is my primary wood source and can tell you 1st hand, it takes a couple years to season from green, no matter what method you use, especially white Oak.

[Al_Smith]

The nice thing about oak is the fact it coals up nice .The coals actually produce the most heat and almost no smoke .Fact I have the insert loaded up right  now with gnarly oak stump wood .It will burn a long time .Come morning,put on the coffee,open the draft,toss on some ash and let-er  rip .Toasty 

[Magicman]

 

 
This is the Red Oak that I cut & split in February, 2018.  It stayed stacked here for a couple of months before I moved it to the wood shed.  I have no idea what the moisture content is but when a stick goes to coals, I add another stick.    

[Rebarb]

That Red is almost to pretty to burn. Lol

I was one of those that argued, Oak could efficiently burn in a year until I cut one green.

[Al_Smith]

I've got a huge pile of white oak typical tree trimmer style .30" in diameter and 4-6 foot long loaded into a dump truck with a skid loader and dumped off .
Obviously I'll have to cut it to length .When I do I'll guarantee those rounds in spite of the fact they laid in a pile for seven years will have moisture still with in the log .As such we're talking two years at least .

[Magicman]

With the exception of sawmill slabs/trimmings, I avoid using White Oak firewood for that reason.  It (almost) never dries.  :-\  Of course I also have an unlimited source of Red Oak.

[Al_Smith]

You just have to split it smaller to get it to dry out .
Been some time ago, maybe 1982 as an experiment I cut into a cull white oak log left behind from a cut made in 1937 .The outside 2" was rotted but below that you could have made lumber from it .It just doesn't dry out in the log . 

[doctorb]

RESULTS:  OAK DRYING EXPERIMENT

After 18 months, I tested the split Chestnut Oak for % H2O to see if the location of the split log effected the %H2O.  Complete description of the set up earlier in this thread.  The logs to be tested have not been moved or protected in any way during that time.

Pic of my outside wood stack with shed in background.  Note log with yellow paint and large washer.  A second experimental log lies directly behind the one in view.  These two logs are labeled "Outside Exposed #1 and #2".



 



 


A third log is buried into the stack outside.  It is labeled "Outside Log Buried".  Note the yellow paint and washer.



 


Similarly, 3 logs were placed inside the shed, with no sun or rain exposure.  Two were placed on top of the stack and are labeled "Inside Exposed #1 and # 2".  Washers denote logs in question.



 


A third log was placed inside the shed and buried within the stack, labeled "Inside Log Buried".



 

All logs were split today and the moisture content measured.  Multiple measurements were taken, all at the midway point of the length and the width of the split piece to attempt to locate the portion of wood furthest from any surface.



 

% H2O

Outside:
          Exposed #1                            10.6 - 12.1
          Exposed #2                            13.9 – 16.8

          Buried:                                    16.4 – 19.2

Inside:
          Exposed #1                            14.2 – 16.8
          Exposed #2                            11.9 – 13.2

          Buried:                                    16.9 – 18.9



As can be seen, all logs were seasoned below the 20% threshold, making them excellent firewood.  Those logs that were exposed, either inside or outside, dried the best.  As it's impossible to put all of your firewood in this optimum location, it is encouraging that those logs buried within the stacks seasoned very adequately as well.  With this very small sample of measurements, it is difficult to make any conclusions regarding the positive or negative effects of being outside exposed to the weather versus under cover in a shed.

As with many experiments, once ended, you clearly see what you should have done to improve the conclusions of the study.  The sample size should have been much larger, permitting measurements at, say, 6 month intervals.  This may shed some light on whether one location would dry faster than the other.  Secondly, my climate may be significantly different than yours.  These logs had significant time to dry, with one winter, one full spring, and two full summers and fall seasons to season.  What may be more important is the variable effect of prolonged winter drying time versus more temperate climates, like mine.

Anyway, it was fun, and your comments and insights are appreciated.

I found the variability of moisture content interesting.  It could be due to the inability to make every piece from the round the exact same size, or possibly from inaccuracies of the testing device or the investigator.

[John Mc]

So how long are you going to keep us on the edge of our seats, waiting for the results?

You experiments seem a lot like the ones I did years ago (I think shortly before you started heating with wood, @doctorb ). Unfortunately, I can no longer find the actual numeric results, but my drying methods since then have been driven by what I learned from it (particularly when I'm behind in my drying and need to shorten the process as much as practical).

In my area, the number of summers of drying is a big factor: 18 months including one summer is quite a bit different than 18 months which happened to include 2 summers. From the timing of your post, I'm guessing you had two summers in your 18 months (though maybe that is not as much of a factor in MD as it is in VT?)

[doctorb]

John-

Thanks for your interest.  I think you must have seen my Results post just as I was placing it online.  It was incomplete for a few minutes as I added stuff to it.  Anyway, your input is always appreciated.

[Andries]

Thank you @doctorb! 
There was a unsplit piece of Burr Oak in my woodstove this am, which was boiling water from the end as the heat from the fire penetrated the wood.
The split oak all around it had started to burn far sooner than the unsplit piece.
So, the lesson for me is to split everything, even the small stuff.
You numbers indicate that covered or uncovered only results in about 3-4% variation. Have to admit, that surprised me.
 So, its good to know what the real difference is, rather than just wondering about it.
Thanks again!

[John Mc]

John-

Thanks for your interest.  I think you must have seen my Results post just as I was placing it online.  It was incomplete for a few minutes as I added stuff to it.  Anyway, your input is always appreciated.

You're right. I just happened to see the few minutes where the results weren't posted

[Old Greenhorn]

fascinating.

[John Mc]

There was a unsplit piece of Burr Oak in my woodstove this am, which was boiling water from the end as the heat from the fire penetrated the wood.
The split oak all around it had started to burn far sooner than the unsplit piece.
So, the lesson for me is to split everything, even the small stuff.

I also make an effort to put at least one split on just about anything I intend to burn. Since I also leave anything under 3-4" diameter in the woods to rot and return nutrients to the forest soil, I don't end up with ridiculously small pieces.

I do tend to split smaller than many people, however. A wood combustion guru friend of mine convinced me that smaller pieces burn more efficiently. (He designed wood combustion control systems for commercial scale wood boilers, and designed a high-efficiency residential wood boiler from the ground up.) That has seemed to be the case - my firewood usage has dropped since I started doing this. It's far from a scientific experiment on my part, since I did not adjust or control for the variation in heating seasons (not to mention the variation from year to year of the species I burn). However, the reading I've done on the subject backs up what my friend recommended.

Your numbers indicate that covered or uncovered only results in about 3-4% variation. Have to admit, that surprised me.
So, its good to know what the real difference is, rather than just wondering about it.
Thanks again!

One thing to keep in mind when evaluating wood drying methods: the first part of the drying process goes relatively quickly: it's relatively quick and easy to dry wood down to the "fiber saturation point" (roughly 30% moisture content, depending on the species). Drying beyond that point takes more time (or more energy, depending how you are drying the wood). As the wood approaches equilibrium moisture content with its surroundings- basically as dry as the wood is going to get given the surrounding relative humidity - the drying process goes slower and slower: air drying from 28% down to 27% goes quite a bit faster than drying from 16% down to 15%. So the gap between wood that "mostly dry" and that which still has some way to go will tend to narrow as the wood approaches equilibrium.

If you have plenty of time, all this means is that eventually all of it will be dry enough to burn. Where it matters is if you are in a rush: the wood in prime location/conditions will be ready, where other pieces will not.

[stavebuyer]

Thanks to Doctor B for the experiment. From the picture the "uncovered stack" is out in the open where it appears to have been exposed to all the elements(sun/wind/rain&snow). 

We a had a "catastrophic" ice storm (4" inches of ice) in 2009. As a result of that storm I had literally decades worth of firewood just cleaning up the yard and woods closest to the house. I cut, piled, and burned brush for several years. There are still some rotting stacks of firewood piled between trees. That process evolved and I burned the wood until I sold the house 6 years later. 

The wood stacked in the "open" fared very well. Six years later all the split wood in the "open" stacks was still in good shape regardless of species(red oak,white oak, hard maple, and hickory) (All my stacks had something under them preventing ground contact.) 

The stacks I had piled in shade starting to rot below the top couple of rows by the second season. The top layers were fine but then the bark followed by the sapwood started rotting in the lower layers. In full shade the lower rows never really dried out and the added rotting bark and sapwood made it progressively worse. As I burned some of the stacks and got more room; I moved and restacked some the deteriorating piles in the sunnier spots and removed the now loose bark etc. As soon as the deteriorating stacks got exposed to full sun and some breeze they dried out and stabilized.

The moral to the story is that split wood in a building will more or less keep until you need it. Split wood stacked out in the open will last a very long time and dry just as quickly. Stacking in shade is a bad plan. Unfortunately I don't have any hard data to quantify. I will add the few rounds I had stacked in the shade without splitting were in poor shape by the 1st winter. The hickory and hard maple were already showing substantial rot, the white oak had rot in the sapwood, and the red oak while sound was still dripping wet.

[doctorb]

stavebuyer.  Good comments.  The shade issue is interesting, as all the wood I had in the shed was always in the shade.  So being stacked outside, where moisture gets onto the wood periodically, AND in the shade has a significant negative effect, in your experience.  
So it's not the shade itself, but the inability for the moisture to be removed adequately once wet that must lead to the rotting and poor seasoning.

I know some folks take the time to crisscross the logs as they stack to maximize surface area air contact.  If you are using a large volume of firewood, this greatly increases the space you need to store it.  This small study shows that wood stacked in the classic side by side fashion dries just fine, given, as John Mc said, enough time.

[John Mc]

That shade comment is similar to what I noticed for stacks left drying in the woods. I'm shade is a contributor, since the stack is cooler than if it were in the sun. Other factors: in general it's cooler in my woods than out in the open. In addition, the restive humidity is higher, and that stack is sheltered from the wind. 

Fast drying requires warmth (sunlight is one contributing factor to that), a relative humidity low enough to draw moisture out of the wood, and air flow to carry the moisture away. Even in a low-humidity environment, still air around the stacks can create a microclimate of high humidity: moisture coming off the wood hangs around, the air nearby gets saturated and the moisture is very slow to dissipate without some breeze to break it up. (Ask kiln operators are well aware.)

[stavebuyer]

My "shaded" stacks were shaded by trees. Wooded area. Very little sun and wind. I will also mention I had some pallets I stacked two rows side by side and some single rows. The double stacks didn't do very well. They tended to stay wet where the inside ends joined. When I ran out of places to stack and scrap lumber to build pallets out of I tossed the rest into one pretty good sized pile. The bottom pieces of the pile in contact with the soil were rotten after about a year. The rest of the pile dried pretty well and closely resembled what had been stacked. I will mention that the "shaded" stuff that I moved and restacked I did  "cross stack" to maximize airflow. 

Something else I noticed was that between bark rotting/slipping, wind, and frost the stacks "moved" more than I ever imagined. Many stacks developed a pretty good lean and several toppled. Trees move when you stack between them, strapped to a pallet the wood shrinks and the straps are loose, and the wood rots if you stack the rows close enough to support one another.


  

[Rick Alger]

Thanks for the test results doctor b