Figuring BF while sawing

[Qweaver]

This question seem so dumb, I hate to ask it.  I'm getting some requests to saw logs and the 1st question is "will you" and the 2nd is "how much".   What is the best way to keep track of how much is sawn?  Especially if the lumber is being stickered as it's cut?  I guess I could just have a pad on a clip board and log each board as it comes off of the saw or just go thru it after it's stacked. 

The price charged seems to vary alot, according to what I read here.  Charging by the hour seems like a good way, but I'm pretty slow right now. 
I hate to think about taking on jobs but it appears that there is a lot of work out there and I'm sure getting a lot of money into building this "cheap" house using my own "free" trees and the old bank account is dwindling fast.

Quinton

[Kirk_Allen]

I have a form made up of 4/4 and 6/4 lumber in various widths.  I use one sheet for each log in most cases but could break it down to two logs each sheet. 

I measure the lenght of the log and record it.  Then as I cut I make hash marks next to the width lumber I am cutting and this way I can keep track of every board cut and its size. When I take a break I tally up the BF on each sheet. 

Works out pretty well and at the end of the day I give it to the customer if he wants it but so far none of them have wanted it.  They do appreicate the offer and I think are assured they got what they paid for.

[Qweaver]

Hey Kirk, that's a good idea.  In fact I setting here (since the Doc told me to avoid lifting for a day or two)  making one up in Excel that I can print as a worksheet and then plug the amounts quickly into my laptop at the end of the day and it will do the calculations for me.  I'll bet someone on FF has done this already.  It would be nice to get a look at a tested spreadsheet.

Quinton

[Ron Wenrich]

I think a lot would depend on how accurate you really have to be.  If you want something to show to your client, then a spreadsheet or tally sheet would be the ticket.  Then they can see exactly what they have.

For things that don't have to be that accurate, I have always used a layer count for lumber and a piece count on blocking.  A layer count on boards would be the layer width x board thickness x board length/12 to come up with footage.  I find that if you take an inch off for air spaces (depending on your stackers), you'll come out pretty close. 

Just count the layers of 8', or 10', then multiply by your avg layer dimensions and you'll be pretty close.

I used to count in my head when I sawed.  I would figure out about how much volume was in a board and kept adding.  Then, put a hash for every 100 bd ft.  It worked out pretty well, and help beat some of the tedium of sawing. 

Use what works best for your situation.

[Tom]

I explain to the customer that we will count the good boards when I finish if he will keep widths and lengths separated and make the stacks neat.  I may saw 2 or 3 days and not count till I'm finished.  It sure takes the tediousness out of sawing and lets me concentrate on the log, the customer, my coffee cup and breaks.  I can talk with the customer without losing track of what's going on.  That's important.  I never miss a chance to visit.  :D

[woodmills1]

A lot of times If the logs are large enough you will end up with say a 12 by 12 on the mill and you can do some rough math in your head.  This doesnt work if you are flipping a lot but any time either of the inches of the cant is 12 or the log length is 12 the math is pretty simple since board foot needs one 12 to come out easy.  Oter times I do the layer count as previously mentioned.  I have also put a paper slip up on the gas/water platform and written down each and every board, but the pencil always seems to vibrate into the sawdust pile :D :D.  At other times I have scaled the logs with a stick before cutting and either use that figure or maybe add a little since I usually over run.

However it is easier to charge by the hour. :P

[TexasTimbers]

Tom I must say yoiu have your priorities right on. The counting can wait till the coffee and visiting has been taken care of.  

[pigman]

I have used all of the methods already mentioned. I was on a job two years ago where the lumber was going to a commerical buyer that was going to measure the lumber and I was to be paid on that figure. When we finished the customer remarked that there was over 14,000 ft in the stack we had been sawing on for five days. I told him that I thought there was only about 12,000ft.   Since he insisted he was right, I let him pay me for the 14,000ft before it was measured. The customer is always right, especially when his numbers are larger then mine.

[Kirk_Allen]

I think a lot would depend on how accurate you really have to be. 

I would think most would agree, if the customer is paying us for cutting his wood Accuracy on the tally should be one of our priorities, otherwise we are either ripping them off or not being paid for the service we provided.   

Under what cicumstance would there be that it woudl be ok to have an inaccurate tally?

[Tom]

When the customer says, "just average the stack".

[Kirk_Allen]

If Im cutting by the BF I dont think I want to average the stack but I suppose the custemer could request that.

[Quartlow]

someone else on here once said they just measure the cant once they are squared up. Thats the way I've been doing it. any boads that need edged get set to the side and I do the edging last and figure it in

[spencerhenry]

i made a spreadsheet for lumber tallies, and for the customer. just enter the number of pieces, the width length, and thickness. if figures bdft/ft, bdft/piece, and total for each size, also adds the total number of pieces, total bdft. on column for price, shows prices/bdft, price/all pieces that size, and total price of the order. it  used to have a category for species, but i dont use that anymore.
when i am trying to estimate a stack without counting each piece, i count the layers of each lenght, and mulitiply that by the pile length and width. maybe not 100% accurate, but pretty close.
but cutting someone elses wood, i charge by the hour, and charge extra for the blade i dull, or hit metal with.

[Tom]

...but I suppose the custemer could request that.

Yep, three times last week.

[Ed_K]

 I count at the end of the day, unless the customer is loading right off the mill. Then I count as they pass. I write down how many of each then plug the #s into a excel spreadsheet and it'll tell me bf and how much $. Less for cants, more for boards.

[Dana]

If the customer is helping I have him measure and record the dimensions of the board as it comes of the mill. There is plenty of time to do that while I cut the next board. If no help, then I record the numbers. At the end of the job I take the hand written sheet and use the Forestry Forum Board Calculator to come up with the board footage and the final bill. I give this and the original tally sheet to the customer.

[Ron Wenrich]

I get paid by the Mbf, so my tallies don't have to be exact.  I always round off to the closest Mbf.  But, I'm sawing not sawing a few logs for a client.

When we saw logs up for a customer, we will round it off to the closest dollar.  Never had any complaints.

We also send trailerload lots of lumber that are going to be paid on their grade.  No need to have a dead on accurate tally.  We do give a volume count and a bundle count so we know that lumber has not been seperated at the buyer's end.   It also helps in estimating legal load sizes.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I clip a 5x7 card on the consel and write the size of boards and length of logs down.   Then I just make tick marks and talley up on the Custom Sawing sheet.   It is carbon copy and I give them one and the 5x7 if they want it.   It is easy to count as the boards come off and when you get to sawing to the deck you can figure how many are left and mark them down.   Some times if they just dead stack off the mill and have different length logs it gets hard to count.   Then there are the boards that are special and they put them in the truck and you forget to count them.




  If all the logs are the same length then measuring the width of the rows and number of rows is fast and easy for lumber that is stacked good.   By the hour is easy just agree on price and way of measure before you start sawing.

[Paul_H]

Under what cicumstance would there be that it woudl be ok to have an inaccurate tally?

I had a customer question my quesstimate on a whack of 1x6 and 1x4 that he wanted me to S4S.It was his lumber and I have done business with him before and have always billed based on his volume counts and had never questioned them or even checked.
We had long ago agreed that pick up and delivery would be $50 per way and the lumber would be ready to load when I got there.Normaly I would waive the one trip as a goodwill gesture.

The last load I did for him was the 1x6&4's and loading it was a dogs breakfast.His employee and I did a tally using the same method Ron used and we averaged the lengths because they were loaded fast and random.
We came up with a rough guesstimate of 1500 bf. The customer muttered something about there wasn't that much and I heard the words "ripped off"

I called him on it and he told me he was worried that without a proper tally,  either of us might get the short end of the stick so I invited him to check.It took him 15 minutes but his tally was 1440 bf.(I'd been there an hour longer that I should have already)

I charged him by his tally and it saved him $18.00 but decided that in the interest of fairness it would be best to charge him full price delivery(normally waived) which would have saved him $100.

[Kirk_Allen]

Sorry Paul, I just dont get what your trying to say ???

Your rough guestimate was 1500 and the customer was not happy with that.  I think your example points out why an accurate tally is important. 

If its a job by the board foot and you have an accurate lumber tally and someone tells you its wrong you can pull out the tally and double check it with them. 

(I'd been there an hour longer that I should have already)

Another example of having an accurate tally sheet.  Probably would have saved some time.  When a person is presented with a SPECIFIC lumber tally from the job it makes it next to impossible for them to argue about the tally. 

My tally sheet is very similar to Arkys and I have never had a problem with it nor a complaint from a single customer. 

I guess what ever works for you that is what you should use.  My tally sheet works for me and is accurate, eliminating suspicion of ripping someone off, as you described with using a rough guestimate.

I no longer cut on shares because of being ripped off.  I use to keep the share cutting simple with he gets a board- I get a board.  Seperate stacks and on two different occasions I came back with my trailer to get my stacks and was shorted.  How do i kow?  I took pictures before I left.  I knew what I had.  Didnt say a word. If they felt they needed to steel it from me they clearly needed it more than I did.  I just wont cut for them anymore and now I tally every board. 

[Paul_H]

Sorry Paul, I just dont get what your trying to say ???

I'm sorry but I have no trouble understanding what I was trying to say.

[Kirk_Allen]

 : :

[Paul_H]

One more time.

My rough guesstimate was 60 bf under his but I didn't bother to check his numbers.I was raised to be fair and expect fairness in return.
I had always trusted his numbers and may or may not of been short changed by him.I never had to resort to taking pictures,just trusted.And like I had said before,he was getting $100 knocked off in delivery charges up until that day.

When I did the tally,it was along side his employee who is the shop manager and we agreed on it.

That system of tally was agreed on and had been implemented for the past 3 years but the tally we based it on was always his.This was the first time it was based on mine.

Maybe I should take pics of my customers piles.

[ohsoloco]

I separate my logs by length when I'm sawing, and then I make four foot wide stacks, and count the layers after I'm done.  6 foot lumber would be 24 bd. ft. per layer, 8 foot would be 32, etc...  Never had any complaints, and if I short one layer by an inch or two, I simply make it up in another layer.  This way there is only a couple boards left over that I have to do an individual count of.  This wouldn't work if you're stickering right off the mill, but I prefer to saw at my place any more, and have the customer pick the lumber up.  I'm with Paul, I charge $50 a trip, but usually cut them a break on the second trip since I'm already hooked up and have my gear loaded. 

The only person I used to give a lot of breaks to on hauling started getting really fussy and said I was ripping him off.  Said some spruce I cut for him wasn't worth what I was charging him...even though I charged by volume cut, period  :  I don't deal with him anymore  ;)

[Jeff]

I have had a grand total of two custom customers so I can easily get my %s on certain things. ;D

Customer one: We measured every board after each day as thats the way he wanted to do it, plus we were cutting random width for grade.


Customer two, who was the swamper for customer one:

We were going to do measure the width of rows, number of rows, and length of rows to determine footage because he was stickering for air drying as we went.  When we went to measure we noticed that the lengths, 12's, 8's and 10's seemed to be about even in number so he says, "Why don't we just call them all tens rather then trying to measure all the lengths?"  "Fine with me" I said , and thats what we did. Actual widths and number of rows with estimated lengths. He was happy I was happy and what ever we were off by on the total was evened up in the handshake and the time saved.