Stretching chains

[cutter88]

Can somebody please tell me what the main cause of stretching is... Iv had 2 chains this month on 2 different saws stretch beyond tightening before they are Half worn out ???

[Al_Smith]

What brand of chain ?

[AdkStihl]

Inferior materials.
My guess is Oregon or Carlton chain.
But that's just a guess.

STIHL chain is advertised as being pre-stretched and doesn't seem to stretch much at all.

[sawguy21]

. We need to know brand of chain, what you are cutting and whether you are properly sharpening. Lack of lubrication is a common culprit

[cutter88]

Stihl semi chisel chain the stuff with semi round tooth for cutting dirty wood... Cuts maple, oak, ash on a 2186 Jonsered and ms461 stihl and I would say I'm a good sharpener... And for oil we use strained used 15w40 been doing that for years never had chains stretch

[pineywoods]

Stretching chains is actually a mis conception. Chains don't actually stretch. What happens is the rivets and the holes for the rivets wear (soft metal, lack of lube, dirt and grit, etc). Look at it this way, most 20 inch chains contain around 72 drive links. Each link will have at least 3 rivets. If each rivet only wears off a thousandth of an inch, that's a total of .021 inch of what appears to be stretch but really isn't. Keep um lubed and out of the dirt....

[beenthere]

pineywoods answer good. 

Look for how your chains are wearing... and then the reason they wear so quick.

[OneWithWood]

The used motor oil lacks any additive to help it stick to the chain so it flies off the tip and the chain on the underside of the bar becomes dry.  I learned this the hard way as I used to use reclaimed motor oil as a bar lube.
Another culprit is pinching the chain in the cut and racking it back and forth to loosen it.  Accelerates the pin wear beenthere mentioned.
Not loosening a chain after running hard and hot will also accelerate the pin wear.

[SawTroll]

Stretching chains is actually a mis conception. Chains don't actually stretch. What happens is the rivets and the holes for the rivets wear (soft metal, lack of lube, dirt and grit, etc). Look at it this way, most 20 inch chains contain around 72 drive links. Each link will have at least 3 rivets. If each rivet only wears off a thousandth of an inch, that's a total of .021 inch of what appears to be stretch but really isn't. Keep um lubed and out of the dirt....

Yep, that's what it really is about. Too little bar oil will speed up the wear prosess.

[cutter88]

Yes I new that's what was happening... :) but thanks for the info I think ill switch to chain oil from now on and see what that does... Thanks again or the input guys

[Southside]

Never really thought of why it happens but thanks for the info.  Question - why do cutters on one side or the other of the chain wear faster than the other side? 

[Al_Smith]

Several reasons .The bar rails could be worn off slghtly a tilt .
The fix for that is to file it back straight,use a belt sander etc .

More commonly the chain cutter angles could be off. More often an error in hand filing .Plus it's a natural tendency for a person being right or left handed to file heavy on one side .Use of a guide will often correct that problem .

[tgalbraith]

one more cause of premature chain failure is the drive sprocket. It wears too, and after awhile the full force of
cutting gets concentrated on one cog..  I replace my drive sprocket after about the fifth chain. 8)

[SawTroll]

one more cause of premature chain failure is the drive sprocket. It wears too, and after awhile the full force of
cutting gets concentrated on one cog..  I replace my drive sprocket after about the fifth chain. 8)

I don't think it would hurt to replace it a bit more often than that - but it does of course vary with a lot of factors.

[Andyshine77]

Whenever I see a chain with that much slop it's do to an absurdly dull chain. As soon as the OP said dirty wood, we had our answer.

[Al_Smith]

I 've yet to figure out the big hulaballo of filing a chain like it's rocket science .IMO a sharp chain is more important than a hot rod saw .It's not a hard concept to grasp .

[7sleeper]

I 've yet to figure out the big hulaballo of filing a chain like it's rocket science .IMO a sharp chain is more important than a hot rod saw .It's not a hard concept to grasp .

To be honest, in my experience, the concept is very hard to grasp for a very large portion of chainsaw users I have met...

7

[thecfarm]

It is hard to grasp. It takes time to understand what to do.I destroyed a few chains trying to grasp it. And I had My Father to watch and show me. He gave up on me. He could sharpen a saw. He did not like any of us kids to run the saw. He was not concerned about the saw,just the chain. He just knew we would hit the ground with it.

[cutter88]

I can sharpen a chain real good.... Doesn't explain why the odd one stretches

[Tug Hill Walt]

Bad lube and very dirty wood will cause wear on the pins to the point that the drive sprocket wears out. From experience of buying a load of fuel wood logs full of fine silt and mud. Only got about 15fc out of a chain and was constantly sharpening. If you can pressure wash the wood.

[Al_Smith]

Well I'm out of ideas unless the chain was kept tight as a bango string .However were that the case it wouldn't cut correctly and the bar would suffer . ???

[John Mc]

one more cause of premature chain failure is the drive sprocket. It wears too, and after awhile the full force of
cutting gets concentrated on one cog..  I replace my drive sprocket after about the fifth chain. 8)

I don't think it would hurt to replace it a bit more often than that - but it does of course vary with a lot of factors.

So how do you tell when a sprocket is actually too worn to continue using? I'd rather replace it depending on condition, rather than after so many chains. I've seen some that obviously should have been replaced long ago, but when it's not so obvious I'm not sure what to look for.

[Al_Smith]

The slots in the rim become elongated .It will start to cut a groove around the center of the rim .

If you let one go too long not only will it stretch the chain but you take a chance of the rim failing .I did once and only once and had to replace 4 drivers on a 32" chain loop .They're inexpensive ,about 5 bucks a pop .

[HolmenTree]

Rim sprockets with too many chains run on them will stretch a new chain quickly.
Todays rim sprockets have wear indicator marks embedded in the rims radial surface with 2 wear marks per tooth.

When the marks are worn away by the chain, it's then time to change the sprocket.
Keep an eye on badly worn bar nose sprockets too.

[John Mc]

Are the wear marks the small notches perpendicular to the edge, about centered on each of the drive slots?

[bandmiller2]

Rattling through dry, hard dead standing wood will speed up the stretch process. Frank C.

[Al_Smith]

I never knew about the wear indicaters until it was mentioned .All I have in the garage are NOS Oregons from NOS McCulloch rim kits .I have some new in the shed I'll check out in a bit .

[HolmenTree]

Are the wear marks the small notches perpendicular to the edge, about centered on each of the drive slots?

John, I think you may be talking about the radial ports in the slots or gullets. I'd take a pic and post here but presently away from home at the inlaws.
These wear indicator marks are 2 laser etched lines each near  the opposite ends of the slots.
Oregon introduced these plus as far as my latest knowledge Oregon still makes these rim sprockets for Stihl rebadged with their name on them.

[Al_Smith]

I went out to mow the yard a while ago and looked in one of tool boxes and found several rims with etch marks .Actually a fine idea .

[SawTroll]

Oregon introduced these plus as far as my latest knowledge Oregon still makes these rim sprockets for Stihl rebadged with their name on them.

True, as far as I know.

[beenthere]

Just looked at my Stihl rim sprocket, and could not see any wear nor any etch marks.
I look forward to some pics showing them on rim sprockets.

Have been through two chains with this saw, and on the 3rd and 4th now. Expect I'll change out the rim sprocket on the next pair of chains. Have been wondering how to tell wear on the rim sprockets. My old spur sprockets were changed every two chains (alternating chains until both worn out together).
Just doing 6-7 cords of firewood and occasional other tree jobs, doesn't add up to much wear.

[Al_Smith]

I can't help out much because as far as I know the only Stihl branded rims I have are for the 024  (.325) which use a small spline and Oregon will not interchange .Which BTW are twice the price of the others .Sooo should they last twice as long,time will tell .

[HolmenTree]

I'm 600 miles from home at the moment  so can't show you anything.
Just google Oregon Powermate rim sprockets and you will see a really nice picture with good info.
I know for sure Oregon makes or has made radial ported rim sprockets for Stihl......just can'tsay for certain when or if they gave Stihl the  wear indicator marks too.....don't have my rim inventory in front of me.

[Andyshine77]

Oregon also makes the clutch drums for Stihl saws. At one time Oregon also made guide bars for Stihl.

[Al_Smith]

Well now this brings up a good question .I know for a fact about the bars,Oregon bar ,Stihl mount ,simple enough .Is this saying Oregon makes the bars with the Stihl name painted on them for Stihl ,OEM ?

Clutch drums and rims same .Now lets say OEM speced drums and rims if that be the case .On say small mount Stihl only OEM speced rims will fit .An Oregon rim drive will take any rim except OEM Stihl .Why in the world did some genious bastardise Stihl drives and why only in small size ?

Doesn't make an ounce of sense .If somebody schemed to have the drive systems completely OEM they would have made the whole nine yards OEM but they didn't . ???

[HolmenTree]

Al, I think Andy was talking about the Oregon OEM Stihl bars sold on Stihl saws here in Canada.
Yes they were grey with the Stihl black logo.
Here in Canada ever since I can remember there was a trade deal where Stihl could only sell their saws in this country if they put a Canadian made accessory on it, bars were the choice.

First it was Windsor bars then around about 1987 Stihl Canada switched to Oregon. Saws with bars  25" and over were allowed to be sold with German made Stihl bars.

On the topic of small bored rims I think your talking about the mini 7 spline rims. Oregon's main customers like Husqvarna for example didn't bother with the mini and only went with small.
Stihl 024 for example had mini where the little Huskies and 'sereds are small.   

[SawTroll]

I can't help out much because as far as I know the only Stihl branded rims I have are for the 024  (.325) which use a small spline and Oregon will not interchange .Which BTW are twice the price of the others .Sooo should they last twice as long,time will tell .

As far as I know Oregon make the mini 7-spline rims for Stihl, but they don't market them themselves. I assume it is part of their contract with Stihl?

Here, Stihl branded rims cost 2-4 times as much as Oregon branded ones, depending on where you buy the Oregon ones.

[HolmenTree]

Yes as Niko said there is some sort of contract between  Oregon and Stihl.
I'm just not sure how many years it's been in effect.

[Paul_H]

Here, Stihl branded rims cost 2-4 times as much as Oregon branded ones, depending on where you buy the Oregon ones.

Troll,

Exactly the same price around here for either brands

[Al_Smith]

I have a 36" Windser .404 Stihl mount I adapted to run on a Homelite 2100S.

Now I had heard that as far as prices in areas of high impact logging etc. that the prices were competative with others .

Here in the middle of this vast corn field that stretchs from Ohio clear to Nebraska that is not the case .We just mumble and grumble,pony up the money and go cut wood .That's the name of that tune in one note----so to speak . ;)

[John Mc]

Just google Oregon Powermate rim sprockets and you will see a really nice picture with good info.

Tried Googling. So far, the only thing I can see is the radial ports, not the wear indicators.

[HolmenTree]

Just google Oregon Powermate rim sprockets and you will see a really nice picture with good info.

Tried Googling. So far, the only thing I can see is the radial ports, not the wear indicators.

www.oregonproducts.com/pro/products/sprockets/sprockets_rim_sprockets.htm

[John Mc]

Thanks, HolmenTree.  Are the wear indicators the two lines across the face of the sprocket that are at about 10:00 and 11:00 in the photo? Those two lines plus the drive slot kind of look like a capital I. 

If those are the marks, are you just looking for them to start to wear to the point where they are no longer completely visible?

[HolmenTree]

Yes those are the wear depth indicator marks. When the chain wears the mark away it's then time to replace the sprocket.

[ely]

when I get a new chain, I turn that power rim around and run it the other way for awhile.

[SawTroll]

Here, Stihl branded rims cost 2-4 times as much as Oregon branded ones, depending on where you buy the Oregon ones.

Troll,

Exactly the same price around here for either brands

I am not surpriced that the picture varies around the world.

[Andyshine77]

Well now this brings up a good question .I know for a fact about the bars,Oregon bar ,Stihl mount ,simple enough .Is this saying Oregon makes the bars with the Stihl name painted on them for Stihl ,OEM ?

Clutch drums and rims same .Now lets say OEM speced drums and rims if that be the case .On say small mount Stihl only OEM speced rims will fit .An Oregon rim drive will take any rim except OEM Stihl .Why in the world did some genious bastardise Stihl drives and why only in small size ?

Doesn't make an ounce of sense .If somebody schemed to have the drive systems completely OEM they would have made the whole nine yards OEM but they didn't . ???

When demand exceeded Stihl's production capacity, they would outsource bars. Yes they were painted white with the black lettering. With the new bar manufacturing plant I doubt production output is an issue any longer.

The rim drums and sprocket drums are all made by Oregon, even with all the Stihl markings and different part numbers. I believe Stihl is actually Oregon's largest single customer.

[Coreytroy]

So what is the top chain brands that don't seem to stretch?

I tend to buy Carlton or a cheaper brand, but no matter what brand chain I have used, all seem to exceed the chain adjuster length by being too long.

From what I have read some of you guys cut for weeks/months day in day out, but get literally about 4hrs cutting till the chain gets too long for the bar.

But will a Stihl brand chain not do this stretching?

[beenthere]

I don't go through a lot of chains, but have never had one "stretch". All have been Stihl brand for the last 40 years come next year.

[Compensation]

So what is the best way to clean your chain if you know it hit dirt? My saw with the duro chain held up great until I loaned it out then got it back with a half inch sag.

[SawTroll]

So what is the top chain brands that don't seem to stretch?

.......

That simply isn't possible to make - heat expension and wear on/around the rivets is impossible to totally avoid.

If everything is right, it shouldn't be a real issue though. Keeping the chain sharp may be the single most important factor.  ;)

[beenthere]

So what is the best way to clean your chain if you know it hit dirt? My saw with the duro chain held up great until I loaned it out then got it back with a half inch sag.

No. 1 thing is never (never) loan a saw out... ;)

Remove the chain and rinse in gas, kerosene, fuel oil, or what ever is handy and cheap. IMO.

Sharpen and be sure the oiler is working good. Maybe even start out oiling the chain a bit. as I see it.

[beenthere]

So what is the top chain brands that don't seem to stretch?

.......

That simply isn't possible to make - heat expension and wear on/around the rivets is impossible to totally avoid.

If everything is right, it shouldn't be a real issue though. Keeping the Chain charp may be the single most important factor.  ;)

We should keep in mind the OP (original post) that somewhat defined what "stretching" means at least within this thread.

Iv had 2 chains this month on 2 different saws stretch beyond tightening before they are Half worn out ???

[Mooseherder]

I think the bar gets pulled closer towards the clutch sprocket during use because the side cover nuts won't hold all the torque that is being produced.  The chain becomes loose rather than stretched.

[Al_Smith]

Believe it or not I have ran chains from the time they were new until they run out of cutters to file and never took them off the bar .I didn't ever have one stretch out to the end of the take up ,never .

When I sold firewood that was tank full after tank full non stop.File in between .They would heat up and "grow" a little but they always snapped back when they cooled off .Fact at days end I would loosened the bar in anticipation that they would shrink .

[bandmiller2]

Sometimes you will run into a saw bar combo that needs a slightly shorter chain, if put on the saw you have very little adjustment left. Almost every time I file my chain I tighten it a little so there is no  sag but the chains not tight. A new chain will "run in" and require an adjustment soon but after that only minor tweeking. I find hard dead standing wood to be very hard on a chain cutting edge and rivet wear. Frank C.

[HolmenTree]

I tend to buy Carlton or a cheaper brand, but no matter what brand chain I have used, all seem to exceed the chain adjuster length by being too long.

From what I have read some of you guys cut for weeks/months day in day out, but get literally about 4hrs cutting till the chain gets too long for the bar.

I think you may have one or two many DLin your chain loop for your bar.

When you you break in a brand new chain no matter whether it's Oregon or Stihl, you have to cut small diameter wood,  I cut brush , delimb a tree or cut cookies off a 4 inch diameter or so stick. Only takes a minute of steady cutting.

Never cut into a large log with a brand new chain for the first time.
I was taught that 40 years ago by some of the top saw chain field engineers and reps. Doing this I never had a stretching problem.

[Coreytroy]

I tend to buy Carlton or a cheaper brand, but no matter what brand chain I have used, all seem to exceed the chain adjuster length by being too long.

From what I have read some of you guys cut for weeks/months day in day out, but get literally about 4hrs cutting till the chain gets too long for the bar.

I think you may have one or two many DLin your chain loop for your bar.

I normally buy a bar and chain combo, so incorrect chain length shouldn't be an issue.

I am only running a 16" bar on a MS380 though.

[SawTroll]

We should keep in mind the OP (original post) that somewhat defined what "stretching" means at least within this thread.

Iv had 2 chains this month on 2 different saws stretch beyond tightening before they are Half worn out ???

??? I don't understand why you posted that, as I don't think this thread ever went off topic?

[John Mc]

I normally buy a bar and chain combo, so incorrect chain length shouldn't be an issue.

Are you replacing your bar with every chain?

[Coreytroy]

I normally buy a bar and chain combo, so incorrect chain length shouldn't be an issue.

Are you replacing your bar with every chain?

Mostly, but not always. Why?

[SawTroll]

I normally buy a bar and chain combo, so incorrect chain length shouldn't be an issue.

Are you replacing your bar with every chain?

Mostly, but not always. Why?

A bar should outlast at least 4 chains with proper maintenanse (flipping over and removing "wire edges") - usually they last (much) more.

[beenthere]

Agree with SawTroll...  8)

[John Mc]

If you are using 1 bar per chain (and the bar really is worn out), you may not be getting enough oil on the bar. Not only will this wear the bar more quickly, you can overheat the bar, destroying its temper. This means the rails on the edge of the bar are going to be soft, and wear more quickly even if you do have enough oil in the future.

Another possibility is that you may be letting your chain get too dull. Duller chain means you need more pressure to cut, which wears the bar faster (and is harder on you, the chain, the bar and the engine).

A last thought could be a badly worn drive sprocket - this could affect the chain, which in turn will affect the bar.

I'm not sure what exactly is going on in your case, but with some more information, we (and by tht I mean some of the gurus on here who know a lot more than I do) can probably save you some money... buying all those bars can add up.

[Coreytroy]

I generally use my MS380, and per tank-tank &half of fuel, I use a tank of bar oil.
The bar does look lubricated and oil comes from the tip.

[beenthere]

I generally use my MS380, and per tank-tank &half of fuel, I use a tank of bar oil.
The bar does look lubricated and oil comes from the tip.

Then what do you attribute your need to change your bar for every chain ?? 

Quite unusual, but maybe that is just unique and what you like to do.

Must be a reason. We'd be interested to hear.  thanks

[John Mc]

Corytroy - are you replacing the bar by choice, or is at actually worn out?

[SawTroll]

Agree with SawTroll...  8)

Odd things happen!

Btw, I corrected some misprints in my post....

[Al_Smith]

With conversations of bars I have some I've ran over 35 years .Hard nose bars which I've dressed on a belt sander several times .Longgevity is simple ,lots of oil .Spare the oil,spoil the bar .

[bigbuckhughes]

Nobody mentioned removing a link when a chain "stretches" that much. 

[beenthere]

Nobody mentioned removing a link when a chain "stretches" that much.

If they stretch that much, they are worn out and need to be replaced. IMO  ;)

[HolmenTree]

I remember back in the day when I got into logging I saw a chain loop size issue.
At our logging camp we had fallers running 16" b/c on Husqvarna's and Jonsered's. Even though both brands were 16", Husqvarna had 62DL chain loops and the Jonsereds with 60DL.
A new 62 loop would work on the Jonsered for a short while before the adjustment no longer tightened.

I suggest Coreytroy count the DL on his chain loops and see if it matches the DL # stamped on the side of his bars. The "matched" b/c setup combo may be an error on  his suppliers part.

On the subject of changing to a new bar with every chain loop that stretches beyond adjustment within 4 hours ......just doesn't make sense. :D 

[SawTroll]

Nobody mentioned removing a link when a chain "stretches" that much.

If they stretch that much, they are worn out and need to be replaced. IMO  ;)

How much wear that takes will vary a bit with different sprocket sizes, and the dl count, bar and saw in question.

[clww]

Some drive sprockets are larger in diameter too (such as an 8 tooth vs a 7 tooth), which will take out a lot of the slack out of a stretched chain.

[Coreytroy]

Corytroy - are you replacing the bar by choice, or is at actually worn out?

Some times I change the bar due to wear. Looks heated on lower half.
I also flip the bar and have put new chains on an old bar, but mostly felt if I have a new chain to also put on a new bar.
Maybe I should just buy a more expensive brand chain to see if they also lengthen.

[LeeB]

Coreytroy, I only just noticed where you are from. Ya'll do have some very hard woods there. I don't know what you are cutting but I suppose the harder woods ya'll have may be taking a faster toll on the cutters and that would make everything get hot and lead to the problems you are experiencing. With the harder woods and the inherent tendency for it to create more heat, I would think you might need to adjust the oil flow. Does that model saw have an adjustable oiler on it. Harder, denser woods will surely mean sharpening more often. I'm no saw wiz, just making assumptions here.

[John Mc]

I missed the location as well. We do have some members from Australia here on the forum. Maybe they'll chime in with what they are seeing for bar and chain life.

If you've got discoloration from heat on the bar, there's likely a problem. Either the oil isn't getting around to the bottom of the bar, or the bar got pinched, or something.  (I'm assuming that's not normal, even with hard Aussie wood. I've only seen it twice while cutting hardwood here in the Northeastern US: once when I ran out of oil, and another time when I pinched a bar - I suspect the bar rails got closed up a bit.)