Centauro "C" 21 ft. Bandsaw, Verticle Set Up Quesitons

Jnichols55 · February 09, 2017, 09:44:26 PM

Greetings New Friends,

I'm the new owner of a used Centauro Vertical Bandsaw, "C" model, It currently has a 7.5 hp. motor on it, and it is geared to turn about 5491.86 FPM. Which seems fast for me. 2" wide, by 36" wheels.

It has a 2" (measures 2.25 from back of blade to front of tooth) on it and the blades I got with it are all used, some steel some carbide tipped. Length of blade is 21' feet, measured around it, off the machine.

Initial questions is the HP correct or under rated? What should be the FPM of the blade?

What else do I need to know? I want to resaw 6" thick hardwoods and soft woods, new lumber already S4S from the mill, that is KDried with it. I don't need heavy production runs, just a reasonable feed rate for running 200 lin. feet per use, or something close to that. My point is that I'm not running this 6-8 hrs a day. This is for production runs, more than hobby, but nothing like a "saw mill". Cooks told me they think the HP is way under rated, and that I can't run any of their 2" blades, and that if I were, their blades need to run at 5400 lin. ft per min, what?? I asked twice and she confirmed that. Otherwise the saw dust will not clear from the gullet. Like I said I'm new to all of this, and I don't know what I don't know!!! They also recommend me to this forum to find out more info. So here I am.

What kind of blade, hp, speed, etc. should I go for?

Let me know if you have further questions, feedback, etc. PS motor turns at 1750 220, 3 phase.

thanks,
Jeff

ozarkgem · February 10, 2017, 06:32:13 AM

So its not a vertical band mill just a bandsaw. Way under powered for 2" bands. Cooks know what they are talking about. Not sure on a band saw but if it were a band mill 30-50 hp electric.

longtime lurker · February 10, 2017, 07:01:25 AM

What you've got is a reasonable sized shop type pitless band resaw, kind of thing you'd find in a small cabinet makers shop.

Numbers are right... or look okay to me anyway. They're not rockets for sure but it should cut a nice finish. You've got (barely) enough HP to get a job done, albeit at a lower feed speed then a band mill or way lower then a sawmill band resaw. They set them up that way because at that point in the journey from tree to furniture cut quality is more important then cut speed.

Resaws ain't like portable bandmills... the wheels tend to be heavier which puts a lot of momentum out of lower HP also.

tacks Y · February 10, 2017, 07:22:11 AM

A Amish guy bought one at a sale that I was at a couple years ago. Not sure of make but I think 10-15 hp but wider band. Try it and let us know how it works. No info from Centauro aval?

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 07:39:19 AM

Thanks guys for your input. Like I said, new to this and though it's not a band mill, and since I don't need a feed rate that a band mill would put out, I'd like to make improvements on it to kick it up a bit. I have milled just some soft wood as a test, poplar and some pine, 6". It surprised me how slow the feed rate was with the existing blade that came with it.

I have another motor I can swap on it, I have to check, but it's at least 15 HP. If I made that change, what would you recommend for the correct saw blade to use? I also have to check on the RPM. Would you suggest I keep the same FPM on the blade speed with more HP? Once I check I'll post the new HP and RPM on the "new" motor and welcome all feed back and suggestions.

thanks,
Jeff

Joe Hillmann · February 10, 2017, 10:35:39 AM

Quote from: Jnichols55 on February 10, 2017, 07:39:19 AM
Thanks guys for your input. Like I said, new to this and though it's not a band mill, and since I don't need a feed rate that a band mill would put out, I'd like to make improvements on it to kick it up a bit. I have milled just some soft wood as a test, poplar and some pine, 6". It surprised me how slow the feed rate was with the existing blade that came with it.

I have another motor I can swap on it, I have to check, but it's at least 15 HP. If I made that change, what would you recommend for the correct saw blade to use? I also have to check on the RPM. Would you suggest I keep the same FPM on the blade speed with more HP? Once I check I'll post the new HP and RPM on the "new" motor and welcome all feed back and suggestions.

thanks,
Jeff

Are you using it to cut logs into lumber or to cut lumber into smaller pieces?

If you are using it to cut logs into lumber. I would look into seeing if you can set it up to use 1 1/4 blades. Because bark and dirt dull blades fast and 1 1/14 blades are probably much cheaper to buy and have sharpened than the blades you have now.

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 01:15:12 PM

Update:

First, I do have a 3 phase 15 HP motor, that runs at 1750 RPM. I can swap that in vs. the 7.5 hp. existing motor.

Anyone have any idea if I can run a 2" blade with this motor vs. the 7.5 hp? I'd rather not go to a 1.25 inch blade unless in the long run it makes things better, feed rate, and little or no drift.

With 15 HP, and a 2" blade from Cooks what kind of FPM feed rate could I reasonably expect?

My goal is to be able to split clean KD S4S lumber, on edge and turn 3/4" x 6" into two equal pcs (5/16" thick, each board, or close to that) Very little log milling.

thanks,
Jeff

scrout · February 10, 2017, 01:43:15 PM

Jeff, check out the sawmill vids on Matthew Cremona's youtube channel.
He has just built a bandmill using a 10HP electric using 2 inch bands.
It cuts very well. Keep in mind some estimate an electric motor HP equivalent to 2X gas engines.
All kinda depends on what fpm you want to cut at, if 60 fpm, then yes, I would go much more HP.

Larry · February 10, 2017, 01:59:38 PM

Just set the saw up as is and try it out. Might be a lot better than you think.

I use my shop bandsaw for re-sawing hardwood to make veneer. It runs at 4,500 fpm and can saw 6" kd pine at a pretty good clip. And I only have 1 hp on it.

After you run it for a while than start making changes, one at a time.

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 02:07:24 PM

Larry, thanks, I have tried it out the way it sits. I find the feed rate to be pretty slow. 36" in about 2 mins.

So thinking these are old blades, I called Cooks, they said my saw is way under rated with a 7.5 hp. Which frankly seemed strange to me. They said that their typical 2" blade has to run at such a faster feed rate than my saw will handle and that at a slower rate the saw dust will not clear from the gullets which will cause other problems.

They then referred me here to this forum. So here I am seeking some insight.

Jeff

Joe Hillmann · February 10, 2017, 02:50:41 PM

Quote from: Jnichols55 on February 10, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
Larry, thanks, I have tried it out the way it sits. I find the feed rate to be pretty slow. 36" in about 2 mins.

So thinking these are old blades, I called Cooks, they said my saw is way under rated with a 7.5 hp. Which frankly seemed strange to me. They said that their typical 2" blade has to run at such a faster feed rate than my saw will handle and that at a slower rate the saw dust will not clear from the gullets which will cause other problems.

They then referred me here to this forum. So here I am seeking some insight.

Jeff

Did you mistype something on your post about the speed? You said your saw is running around 5491 fpm and they said there blades are meant to run at 5400 fpm. That is only 91 fpm difference. As long as you are within a couple thousand fpm of what they recommend it should work fine. As far as the hp I would have the blades you have resharpened or order 1 blade from cooks and see how it cuts with the motor it has. Or contact the maker of the saw and see what blades they recommend.

Larry · February 10, 2017, 03:11:41 PM

Quote from: Jnichols55 on February 10, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
Larry, thanks, I have tried it out the way it sits. I find the feed rate to be pretty slow. 36" in about 2 mins.

If that is a 6" kd pine board than your band is dull, not set, or the wrong pitch. My shop bandsaw would saw that board in less than a minute. My old sawmill had a 16 hp gas motor which is just a little bigger than your electric motor. I would saw that same board in less than 20 seconds with a standard 1 1/4" sawmill band. I used it with a stock feeder for siding and the feeder ran at 11 fpm. I think I could have ran it even faster but never pushed it.

What pitch (teeth per inch) do you have on the saw now?

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 03:43:46 PM

Re FPM there was some confusion over this from the rep from Cook's I tried to clarify with her was she talking about blade speed or stock speed I asked her twice and she said no no stockfeed which I have since found out is completely off the mark. So yes you are correct my blade speed is well within reason.

The current blade that was on the saw is one tooth per inch carbide tipped feels sharp but carbide can be a little tricky from my experience in that it can feel sharp but not be.

I just ran some stock again this was 6 inch thick poplar and it's running out of 6 ft./m my first run I was being too cautious with the Saw feed rate.

I'm trying to figure out what's reasonable to expect here regarding the feed rate of the stock through the saw like I said earlier I don't need super high rates but can I expect 40 feet per min with the right blade?
Thanks!

Ljohnsaw · February 10, 2017, 03:49:47 PM

Quote from: Larry on February 10, 2017, 03:11:41 PM
Quote from: Jnichols55 on February 10, 2017, 02:07:24 PM
Larry, thanks, I have tried it out the way it sits. I find the feed rate to be pretty slow. 36" in about 2 mins.

If that is a 6" kd pine board than your band is dull, not set, or the wrong pitch. My shop bandsaw would saw that board in less than a minute. My old sawmill had a 16 hp gas motor which is just a little bigger than your electric motor. I would saw that same board in less than 20 seconds with a standard 1 1/4" sawmill band. I used it with a stock feeder for siding and the feeder ran at 11 fpm. I think I could have ran it even faster but never pushed it.

What pitch (teeth per inch) do you have on the saw now?

I'll second that. You said it came with used blades - they were probably waiting to get sharpened! Can you scratch your finger nail on the tip of a tooth (not running, of course! ;))? If not, sharpen or get a new one. ~~I'd~~ We'd like to see pictures!

Joe Hillmann · February 10, 2017, 04:02:36 PM

I would think you could easily cut at 3 seconds per foot or so maybe a bit slower since the lumber is already dry.

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 04:18:04 PM

I will post pics later this evening.

I do have a call into Centauro rep and he's going to check with the factory to see what they recommend, blade, fpm, etc. and see what they recommend. I'll post here what they say.

Like I posted earlier, another test produced 6 feet per min, pushing the material faster, earlier I was too gentle I think. Finger nail test says blades are sharp, carbide.

But this still seems slow compared to what Joe thinks.

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on February 10, 2017, 04:02:36 PM
I would think you could easily cut at 3 seconds per foot or so maybe a bit slower since the lumber is already dry.

Thanks for hanging in there with me.

Jeff

Larry · February 10, 2017, 04:27:33 PM

Based on my experience running my sawmill with a similar size motor you should easily be able to hit 15 fpm with 20 fpm a possibility.

On my shop bandmill I have a 1" band with 1/2" pitch (2 tpi). I can usually saw faster with a carbon band because they are thinner. The carbide runs a lot longer and has a pretty smooth cut.

Calling Centauro was a good idea. Another place to call is Suffolk Machine. They sell all manner of bands for sawmills, re-saws, and shop bandsaws.

longtime lurker · February 10, 2017, 05:08:17 PM

I would not advise sticking a 15HP motor on that thing. We had an old Stenner VHM 36... 4" bands, 15HP 3 phase. It did well. It also weighed about 2.5 ton and was solid as a rock.

I've never seen a Centauro but have been around similar shop machines. I don't think they have enough weight and frame strength to absorb the power... it'll work, but things will suffer premature failure and you'll hit vibration issues also.

I might be wrong, but I think if you can't improve it with good blades you'll either have to deal with the cut speed you got or get a real one... if you wanted a Mack truck you shouldn't have bought a Ford Pinto.

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 05:15:56 PM

Hi Lurker, I get it. Compared to some of the machines you guys use this might be considered "small." It's 9 ft. tall, with 36" wheels, and weighs 1500 lbs without the table and current motor. With the current motor and the table, it weighs 2000 lbs. It's cast iron I believe, totally solid one piece frame. Not sure that's a Pinto, but perhaps it is. :laugh:

But I'm with you, I'd rather use it stock.

I had to use my fork lift to put the table on the saw. I don't think 3 guys alone could have done it. I'll post pics this evening.

thank you,
Jeff

longtime lurker · February 10, 2017, 05:58:47 PM

I'm hearing ya... don't think I'm not. Thing is it's either bolted to the floor or freestanding... when you increase the motor size you increase the vibration, and that means the frame either has to absorb the increased vibration and still stay rigid for accuracy and not fall apart from fatigue ( bolted down) or it starts to skip around the floor (freestanding).

Doesn't mean in either case you can't soup it up performance wise, but be aware of the potential pitfalls. It's a balanced system and you're about to alter the balance. There are reasons the industrial resaws - Stenner, Robinson, Dankaert, Klamath, McDonough etc - weigh so much even in "low power" configurations. ( Still double what you got). They drop power to improve finish through lower cut speeds, but part of that is the rock solid combination of weight and footings to stop flutter.

Your machine isn't a toy: it's a good shop machine rather then an industrial workhorse though. Play with your bands first, before worrying about speed.

ozarkgem · February 10, 2017, 06:13:20 PM

curious as to why a bigger motor would cause more vibration. My 20 hp is as smooth as any of my smaller motors. I would think it would be smoother. The blade wouldn't slow as much and want to grab. Just my thinking. If it works with what you have use it.

muggs · February 10, 2017, 06:31:57 PM

Is the existing motor on your saw now, direct drive or belted drive? I also don't understand why a lager motor would cause more vibration. Muggs

Jnichols55 · February 10, 2017, 07:11:55 PM

Guys I believe I'm wrong about my original calc re fpm on my blade.
Check this out. There is a jack shaft added to this. To cut to the chase for every 6.5 turns of the motor the bandsaw wheel turns one revolution. The motor is 1750 rpm. So if my math is correct in one min. The bandsaw wheel turns 269 times. Since the wheel is 36" that means one revolution is 9.42 feet.

269 x 9.42 = 2536.15 feet per min. Too slow right?? Math was never my strong point but I think this is correct. Muggs question re direct drive or not caused me to go back and take another look.

I've was told by Robert at Cooks I should be 4500 - 5000 FPM. YES?

muggs · February 10, 2017, 07:32:32 PM

Yes resaws run faster than a normal bandsaw, so you can get a higher feed rate. I had a customer that wanted to buy a Northfield bandsaw. The factory told him it would not be a good idea since it was direct drive and turned too slow. If you regear the saw you may need that larger motor because you will getting less torque to the wheels. Muggs

Joe Hillmann · February 10, 2017, 07:40:12 PM

Quote from: Jnichols55 on February 10, 2017, 07:11:55 PM
Guys I believe I'm wrong about my original calc re fpm on my blade.
Check this out. There is a jack shaft added to this. To cut to the chase for every 6.5 turns of the motor the bandsaw wheel turns one revolution. The motor is 1750 rpm. So if my math is correct in one min. The bandsaw wheel turns 269 times. Since the wheel is 36" that means one revolution is 9.42 feet.

269 x 9.42 = 2536.15 feet per min. Too slow right?? Math was never my strong point but I think this is correct. Muggs question re direct drive or not caused me to go back and take another look.

I've was told by Robert at Cooks I should be 4500 - 5000 FPM. YES?

If it is actually 6.5 turns of the motor to one turn of the wheel then your math is correct. That may mean you may only be able to cut at 6 seconds a foot rather than 3 or four. I would still recommend getting one of your blades sharpened or get a new one and get the machine in tune and see how it cuts before thinking of making any changes. It was built the way it is for a reason.