Hydraulics System Design Help Needed...

Coon · October 20, 2009, 12:14:19 AM

I've been doing some building again.

I am currently building a hydraulic grapple log trailer. Up to date the project has been all from recycled materials. I have most of the framework pieces cut and fitted together ready to weld. Hopefully I can get some of the welding done, if I don't have to go to work, tomorow.

The trailer will be 13 ft long and 60 inches wide with a 10 ft bunk. The boom will have a reach of about 10'6" and the grapple opening somewhere around 30 inches wide.

On to the dilema. I am having troubles figuring out the hydraulic system. I have a 13hp Honda power source that I will be using. I am thinking about using a two stage pump. The pump will feed into a Prince 5 Spool Valve bank w/ adjustible pressure relief and on to the cylinders and motors. Questions i have are:

1. How many gallons per minute do I need for a pump with a 13 hp powersource?
2. How large of a resevoir I need?
3. Will 2" rod dia. cylinders be large enough or do I go for 2.5" rod diameter?
4. What size of hydraulic hoses should be used ?

Pics will be added tomorow.

Brad.

Wallys World · October 20, 2009, 12:37:27 AM

Go to www.surpluscenter.com. They have a bunch of tech help and online calculators that will help you.

Coon · October 20, 2009, 02:17:21 PM

Thanks for the site. I didn't know they had a tech part to the site.

Fla._Deadheader · October 20, 2009, 02:28:38 PM

Then report back on the swivel mechanism. I need to build one that swings 180°. ;D

GF · October 20, 2009, 04:01:14 PM

I would try http://www.surpluscenter.com/hydraulic.htm

GF

Coon · October 20, 2009, 09:44:44 PM

Well I guess it's time for a progress report. :D If you can decifer the mess there is a grapple log trailer in there somewhere. :D I never got to the welding today cuz I had to wait for a phone call. By the time I got it itwas nearly dark out. >:(

Deadheader, if you look in the second picture you will see the spindle sticking up behind the right side of theof the engine. That is 2 inch square box beam that the spindle is welded onto. On the spindle will be a hub and a sprocket. I do not have the bracings and mount for the drive motor manufactured as of yet. The whole boom theoretically will have continuous rotation. In reality I will have to put a stop to prevent the operator from wrapping the hydraulic hoses up around the roating system and blowing up hoses. That could wind up pretty dangerous in a heartbeat.
The spindle is a bit on the light size but it is what I had on hand. When it gives out on me I will go larger.

Brad.

Fla._Deadheader · October 21, 2009, 12:24:59 AM

You gonna use a worm gear drive for running the swivel ??? That looks like a lot of leverage on that little bitty spindle, EH ??? ;D ;D ;D

Coon · October 21, 2009, 09:45:59 PM

Yup, like I said I do know that the spindle is on the light side. :

;) There will be a sprocket and chain that is driven by a hydraulic orbital motor to swing the boom.

I was not able to work on the project at all today due to work. Had to move close to 10,000 bushels of grain around from bin to bin. We moved canola, then oats, then barley. My eyes are still itchy and full of dust. >:( The weatherman is calling for rain tomorow. If so, I will be taking my materials out to where I work and start welding. Need to get the trailer built as I have as much work for the trailer as I want to do.

Brad.

Fla._Deadheader · October 21, 2009, 10:18:30 PM

Quotehydraulic orbital motor to swing the boom

Does this rig keep the swing from moving by itself, "Drifting". A worm gear drive would be a built in brake of sorts. That's been my point of difficulty in doing something on the boom design.

I was hoping to find a big truck spindle and use the lug pattern to bolt a heavy plate to, to support the boom.

Coon · October 22, 2009, 09:19:42 AM

Well, the spindle and hub I used was for a trailer. ;) I won't have anything to stop the "drifting" so to speak. Although I won't have anything to stop this I don't think it will be too bad of an issue.

I did see the "driftting" slowed on another homemade boom and grapple system. What this guy had done was made a bracket and used an old hockey puck bolted to the bracket to put a bit of pressure onto the sprocket to slow it down. I may have to do something similar but will see. The project is a ways away from this though.

Brad.

mike_van · October 22, 2009, 06:26:59 PM

Brad, over on machinery builders most agree a two stage pump is great for splitters, but not so hot for anything else. A set gpm & pressure is better to work from. On a loader like the one you want, I could see it not quite rotating a load, the pump kicking down, and shearing something off. Either that or moving something in the low range of the pump & having it shift up causing a rapid move.

Fla._Deadheader · October 22, 2009, 07:16:36 PM

I was originally thinking a big truck spindle, with a wheel bolted on, OR, using the brake drum, bolted on. Wrap a cable around it a few times, make it no ended, and take a few wraps around a capstan head, on a reversible worm gear electric motor. Save the hyd for boom and crown arms and grapple or whatever attachment you desire ???

This would give ultimate control and a built in brake system ??? Might not swing real fast, but, that's OK, most of the time ???

Coon · October 23, 2009, 12:16:11 AM

mike_van, I had helped a friend build a small backhoe on a trailer. He used a two stage pump and it seemed to do real well so I just figured maybe that should be the way to go. Maybe I am wrong I don't know. :-\

Deadheader, I never really thought of using a worm gear system. I just figured I could do it with hydraulics. I have a spool on the valve banks so why not. ;)

I managed to get some welding done today. Even managed to make a big mistake too. :

:D Guess thats just par for the course with me. ;D While welding I was making great progress. Everything was working the way it was supposed to. I had gotten most of the frame tacked together without it pulling or twisting. 8) I figured ok all is well everything seems square and level I can start welding it solid. I got one side welded up and flipped the frame over and had burnt a rod down and was putting a new rod in the stick and I heard that evil sound tick, tick, tick and then pop. As the steel was cooling it pulled and two of my tack welds on the center and most critical cross beam broke. >:( >:( After a few choice words, in a couple of different languages, I proceeded to fix my misake. Had to cut some of the welds and do a little coaxing with the enticer ;D and reweld. All in all I was happy to get some of the welding done.

I even got some of the bunks cut and laid out.

TeaW · October 23, 2009, 08:15:50 AM

I have a Hardy forestry trailer with 17 foot reach, it runs off the tractor hydraulics. The hoses from the tractor goes to a flow control that limits the oil to 8 gal/min.They generaly want the resevoir to be twice as big as the gal per minute.There ar no rods on the cylinders that are over 2 inches. The feed and return hoses to the control valve are 1/2 inch and everything else are 3/8. Good Luck.

Coon · October 23, 2009, 10:45:14 PM

Thanks TeaW, I kinda thought that 2" rods would be large enough. I will see what I can find for a pump in that range.

Brad.

Coon · October 26, 2009, 09:37:55 PM

Well, another update. Got a bit more welding and fabricating done this weekend but not as much as I would have liked.

The project is coming along quite well I must say. I am still trying to piece together the hydraulic system. As stated before I am trying to build the project with all used materials.

I have two different Cessna hydraulic pumps I am trying to find out the information on. This pump has the following stamped on the flange: B24336 RAB 252 569 M93

The other pump has the following stamped on the flange: 24307 LBW 7NC 01 HLD.

Can anyone give me any specifics on these pumps?

Coon · October 27, 2009, 04:12:28 PM

I found enough info on the two pumps that I know now that neither pump will work. The pump I showed the pic of has a flow divider. It is more of a hydrostatic pump. I have the valve spool and the resevoir also from the system. This resevoir may still be used for the trailer as it would be about the right volume. The second pump simply has to large of a flow for what I need. So there I am again back to square one with finding a pump... :

As for the cylinders I am looking for used ones with 2" diameter rod. How long of a stroke?... Not sure. What would an apropriate length be to use?

Brad.

TeaW · October 27, 2009, 04:24:17 PM

I checked my loader and the cylinder for the main boom is 4" with a 20" stroke and 31/2 " with a 18 " stroke for the cylinder on the dipper.Oh, I measured the rods and they are 1 3/4 " not 2 " .Good luck.

Coon · October 27, 2009, 05:36:32 PM

Thanks again TeaW. The project will come along in its own time. May get some more done tomorow but as for today not going to happen. I feel just rotten. smiley_dizzy

Brad.

Fla._Deadheader · October 27, 2009, 06:06:23 PM

How you going to drive the pump ??? I would think slowing it down would be good enough for what you want. I doubt if pumps NEED to be run flat out to get good production, but, I ain't no injunear ???