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General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: Quebecnewf on December 25, 2017, 05:46:51 PM

Title: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 25, 2017, 05:46:51 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/image~125.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514241246)

I am looking at trying to develop a small scale high lead rope logging system. It would use something similar to this but a little more robust as the main component .

My plan . Run a high line up through a narrow straight trail in the woods. Line anchored up in a tree at each end of the trail. Use winch to tension this line and tie it of tight. Your second line runs up through the traveler ( pic) . You would then cut logs all along the trail and use this device along with the winch to gather and pull turns to your landing.

There are these new high strength ropes which means you could run the system on 5/16 " rope. If you need to do bigger logs step the rope up to 3/8 or 7/16"

Wish I could draw this up because a pic is worth a thousand words.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/image~93.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1514241788)

Those new ropes are pretty amazing . This is the large freighter passenger ferry that runs down the coast here. They now tie her up with ropes that are about 3/4" .

Anyone out there doing this or any ideas on it throw in your comments

quebecnewf


Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dgdrls on December 25, 2017, 08:25:02 PM
I have seen the Wyssens  cable systems,  what are you thinking for a carriage and winch??

D
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: treeslayer2003 on December 25, 2017, 09:17:07 PM
i bet that rope is several times the cost of cable
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dustintheblood on December 25, 2017, 11:24:58 PM
We did that sort of thing a couple of years ago, and it worked like a charm.  I posted pics and a description of things along the way. 

Will try to dig up the thread for you
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dustintheblood on December 25, 2017, 11:26:42 PM
Found it....

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,79434.0.html
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Iwawoodwork on December 25, 2017, 11:54:22 PM
Oregon  State University Forestry Dept in Corvallis, Oregon has done a lot of work with the high strength rope in place of cable, for logging, they also have their own logging side using small yarding machines, they work with the logging industry, might be worth a contact
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 26, 2017, 06:32:15 AM
Quote from: dustintheblood on December 25, 2017, 11:26:42 PM
Found it....

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,79434.0.html

That is exactly what I am thinking of trying only with rope . I am quite sure it will work as well. Mine will be maybe a higher skyline ( I think ) . I cannot use cable just to heavy and I really don,t need that much strength.

With the rig I plan to use ( some version of what you see in pic) I will have double the pulling power has the logs are being pulled to the main line. Half the speed of course . Then once the logs come tight to the main traveler the speed will come back to normal speed with regular pulling power. By this time the ends at least , of the logs will be off the ground and you will be just tail dragging , this means I should be able to do turns of 5 or 6 logs I think. If that proves out correct I can then extend the line further because I am doing more on each turn.

I am real interested in this high strength rope but cost might drive me to use regular ( crab fishing ) rope. Lots of that here and while it might not be as good as the special rope I am sure it will do the job .

How high was your line of the ground would you say ?

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: nativewolf on December 26, 2017, 07:27:03 AM
Great post Dustintheblood.  I'd love to learn more, looking at the gallery right now and appreciate it.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 26, 2017, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on December 26, 2017, 07:27:03 AM
Great post Dustintheblood.  I'd love to learn more, looking at the gallery right now and appreciate it.

I looked through the  gallery as well. There was one small diagram that I could see in fingernail size but would not show full size on my computer. Not sure why.

I have rewatched the video a few times and got a lot of good insight there.

Where in eastern Ontario are you located. When are you going to try this system again. Might be in that area in the coming weeks and would love to see it run.

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 26, 2017, 08:42:25 PM
http://www.baileysonline.com/Arborist-Tree-Care/Arborist-Rope/Tree-Rigging-Bull-Ropes-Double-Braid/BlackMAX-5-8-Double-Braid-Red-Bull-Rope.axd


Thats about the most strength youll find for a dollar a foot.  Bull ropes tend to be pretty tough too.  Splices are a challenge however.  Amsteel and similar are much easier to splice but $$$
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 26, 2017, 08:46:36 PM
Tennex is good and cheap.  Not sure how heavy your trying to pull

http://www.baileysonline.com/Arborist-Tree-Care/Arborist-Rope/Winch-Line-Assemblies/Samson-Tenex-Brush-Chipper-Winch-Line-3-8-With-Hook.axd
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 26, 2017, 11:16:04 PM
Very interesting ropes. For my winch plans the 3/8 " tenex would more than meet the needs , I think My main concern is running snatch blocks up and down this rope with a lot of deflection pulls how will it last with regard to chaffing.

We use , for lack of a better word ( poly rope ) the names are endless depending on the dealer . These ropes usually last one winter of logging . They are pretty cheap and we are not real careful about rubbing them on a tree or two .

I am thinking the main line will be under a lot of tension , will have a lot of back and forth with a lot of strain being put on it by the traveler ( two snatch blocks hanging ) so I want to spend good money on that rope but not have it wear out in one season by just the snatch blocks running back and forth on it .

Another problem is that I work only in winter . The lines cannot absorb moisture , or if they do it must not affect their performance.

Sounds like I'm asking a lot .

Quebecnewf 

Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 27, 2017, 02:19:45 AM
What species, length and diameter logs are you pulling?
How steep is the terrain?
Is it a rocky, snaggy stumpfarm or pretty smooth? 


Arborist rope is very purpose built, some for their roundness in a climbing device, or burn resistance due to friction. Some for lightness and ease of splice and some for brute strength.  Its really incredible stuff actually.

You could probably get a pretty good idea by looking up sampson or yale cordages recommendations or calling to ask a tech what style they would recommend for your project. 

This may be counter-intuitive since amsteel and tennex style ropes are kinda badged as the hot ticket winch line for their strength per diameter and being light, you can fit a lot on a small drum... But I think id be inclined to avoid them.  Its very easy to fish a fid up into them and yank out whole strands.  Sticks and thorns might tear them up pretty fast. 

Otoh, the double braid bull ropes i have are like armor plating, the outer jacket is super tough and hard to pierce, also hard to splice so plan on using knots.  Im picturing a good bull rope lasting a long time over gnarly terrain.  Mine still look new after years. 

Sun is the worst enemy of any rope.  I cant really say how bad an issue of being soaked then freezing will be, my ropes live in trash bags until theyre used during decent weather then back in.

Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 27, 2017, 04:08:42 PM
Just thinking about your comments on the different types of rope.

My high line if it's rigged good should not be touching or dragging on the ground . I am thinking the Tennex would be good for that line.

Then a good quality commercial ( crab line ) rope for the pulling rope. Try this set up first and if I have good results maybe switch as needed to a good bull rope .

My logs are mostly med to small softwood . Ground is rough but not real abrasive . No sand and sharp rock to speak of.

Looking for a Canadian supplier of the Tennex Rope now.

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dustintheblood on December 27, 2017, 04:33:54 PM
Quote from: Quebecnewf on December 26, 2017, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on December 26, 2017, 07:27:03 AM
Great post Dustintheblood.  I'd love to learn more, looking at the gallery right now and appreciate it.

Thanks!

It was setup and used in a couple of different sensitive or difficult sites, so there's nothing to show any more than memories (and the nice cedar siding on the barn from the trees we sliced and diced).

I'm not too far from Kingston

Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 27, 2017, 09:48:10 PM
Best thing about tennex other than being cheap, is you can splice it with a coathanger in a few minutes and have eyelets looped so tight that your pulleys would roll right over.. Incase you had to lengthen it.

Post some pics when you get started.  Im interested in how it pans out for you.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: roger 4400 on December 28, 2017, 09:32:13 AM
Hi Paul.
I know  NOVA JACK sells some polyester and some kevlar rope that are ( I think) 8000 pounds resistant. They have them in 600 ft rolls .I bought 150 ft years ago it was $1 per ft. I used them on my Farmi winch if my wire is not long enough. See you. Roger
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: thecfarm on December 28, 2017, 11:15:28 AM
$1 a foot. That's a buy. Cable for my winch is $150 and that's only 130 feet. Use to be 150. Kinda like sugar,ice cream,coffee. Cut down the weight of the product,but keep the price the same.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: elk42 on December 28, 2017, 02:53:11 PM
The strongest rope that I have use was Dyneema 12 strand single braid 1/2" average tensile strength 34,000 lbs. Tenex 1/2  12 strand single braid average tensile strength 11,800 lbs.  I get mine from Alariobro.com 1/2" is about $3.00 per ft. 600ft roll is $1,385.00 . (Brand Name is SPECTRA )
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Offthebeatenpath on December 30, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
The Amsteel Blue by Sampson or equivalent high modulus polyethylene (aka Spectra dyneema) made by other brands (there are a handful) is the best strength to weight ratio out there. But as others have mentioned, the strands can pull out. Master Pull, the company that makes off roading gear makes a line called Superline XD that  is the best thing that I have used. It is wicked expensive, but it has an dyneema core heated and stretched to make the line thinner, then it is overbraided with very tightly woven dyneema shealth. Then it's coated with some slippery waxy stuff (not sure what it is). The result is a very stiff rope that is strong and abrasion resistant. Did I mention expensive? Here's the link: http://www.masterpull.com/3-4-x-120-superline-xd-winch-line-extension-81-840-lbs/

I have many pieces of dyneema and use them as extensions that are tensioned with hand powered or capstan hoists. I have hauled lots of logs and rocks uphill and flown even more downhill. Dustintheblood's set up was a pretty great one. I primarily use short sections of wire rope and long sections of synthetic. There are infinite variations on the skyline. I have a sampling of rigging photos on my website here if anyone is interested (it is easier to post a link than attach the photos in line): https://www.obptrailworks.com/training/rigging/

One thing that I would mention to Quebecnewf is that the strength of your rope should not be based on your loads, but on your power source. Pay close attention to vector forces (lines going through blocks), dynamic loading, and most importantly, shock loading, as these can all increase the overall tension on the line by many times the power source rating.



Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Offthebeatenpath on December 31, 2017, 12:08:21 AM
Along similar lines... Here's a photo of a neat hand powered rigging scenario from the 1980's in Alaska. An old friend sent me this- he's the guy in the red hardhat. The project was to build a 100'+ long, single log footbridge in the wilderness. The tree was felled in winter with axes and crosscuts. The skyline system was run with hand powered winches. No motors or hydraulics of any kind. I wish I had a photo of the finished bridge.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/RaisingStringer.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514696544)
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 31, 2017, 12:13:53 AM
Dang you alaskans really are nuts! 

;D
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: starmac on December 31, 2017, 06:01:51 AM
Hey, I resemble that.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: chet on December 31, 2017, 04:31:27 PM
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dustintheblood on December 31, 2017, 06:09:35 PM
Seeing that pic reminds me of why I asked the west coast fellows not to laugh at what we were doing....
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: MbfVA on December 31, 2017, 08:21:05 PM
FWIW, I bought 150 ft of 14K# rated Samson blue 0.5 in rigging rope for $130 recently, at a forestry eq store, RBI, near Richmond VA.  Stable Braid 1/2D Blue 150.  Heavy stuff.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 31, 2017, 09:12:16 PM
Looked over your pics . It seems you do a lot of rigging . Would love to sit and talk shop but the best we can do is trade ideas and info on this great site.

I have very little experience in high lead logging in any form . I have loads of experience in moving things with ropes winches and tackles.

My interest in the high lead logging method is being sparked by the strength of these new ( to me ) ropes.

My winch has 2500 lbs line pull so the rope is more than strong enough. If I can find something not to out of this world expensive and given the small logs I want to move I am thinking I can go with a high line of 5/16" dia. Now I know this sounds small but I am not planning to fly these logs , just tail drag them .

Still working on the details . Family commitments will keep me from logging until Feb.

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Gary_C on December 31, 2017, 10:17:14 PM
Two concerns I have for your consideration.

One, synthetic rope tends to stretch much more than steel cable. That stretch may make it unsuitable for your highline even though it's higher break values are attractive.

Two, the tension in your highline must be a multiple of the weight you are lifting. For example a 5 degree sag between your supports will require a tension of about 5.75 times the weight you are lifting. A 15 degree sag will require a tension of about 2 times the weight you are lifting. A 30 degree sag will require the same tension as the weight you are lifting.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on January 01, 2018, 02:56:46 AM
Climbing and repelling lines seem have a bit more stretch than bullropes in my experience.  And id still say go half inch plus.  A rope around a pulley is now half the diameter worth since only half of it is in tension anymore
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on January 01, 2018, 07:20:16 AM
Very interesting responses . Giving more and more info to mull over. I am going to try and draw up some pics of my planned setup today using sketch up . I will post them up and then we can try and figure out some of the forces and strain that will be put on the ropes.

The pic from Alaska is a log way bigger than I am talking about . Once again the west coast east coast thing . My logs fall in the following range .

All spruce and balsam fir .
Lengths of 8/10/12. Average dia at top end 7 to 8 " so as you can see a small run of logs .

Quebecnewf



Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Offthebeatenpath on January 01, 2018, 09:50:36 AM
@Quebecnewf- I'm looking forward to seeing your sketchups. I'll try and post a couple illustrations of systems that I often use for moving materials to build trails. They aren't logging specific, but there is a lot of overlap.

There are a lot of ways to go about setting up yarding systems for pulling loads up and down hill. There are many variations of high leads and double highleads, highlines and skylines with and without belays and haul back lines, etc. Most are site and equipment specific. Basically, if you look at what folks have done for many decades out west and downsize for your smaller loads, you can meet your objectives with smaller and less expensive equipment.

I would definitely continue with your rope research. @Mike_Belben is right- climbing (and sometimes repelling) lines are usually dynamic (aka stretchy) while bull lines are usually static (aka not stretchy). I'm not sure that I understand the comment about a rope around a pulley being half the diameter because only half is in tension... I think Mike may be getting at the concept of a D:d or bend ratio that dictates how line strength is reduced as it is bent. Some fibers/wires are compressed and others take tension. The tighter the bend, the more the strength is reduced. Same reason why knots reduce a rope's strength, some knots more than others.

@Gary_C also brings up a really good point about deflection (aka sag). The more deflection, the less stress on anchors and your power source. However, you will have more stress on your spar (lifting) blocks. The example of 5 degrees of sag = almost 6 times load weight and 30 degrees of sag = same as load weight isn't incorrect, but it is a bit of an oversimplification. There is friction involved, dynamic loading from load movement, changing vector forces as the angles change, etc.

Most synthetic ropes do have more stretch than wire rope (cable), but not all. The amount of stretch varies tremendously. The new HMPE spectra ropes actually have almost the exact same elongation as cable. It seems like they stretch a bit, but it is just the weave of the rope tightening up. After it is compressed, there is the same amount of stretch as your standard skidder winch cable.

All the best.

Jed
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Offthebeatenpath on January 01, 2018, 10:24:30 AM
Here are a few illustrations of rigging systems that we use in the woods. They are all generally powered with hand powered or capstan hoists and are not production oriented- in other words, darn slow.  My fiancĂ© drew these for a manual that I am helping put together for the USFS.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/fig_81.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514819501) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/fig_82.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514819493) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/fig_80.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514819054) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/fig_79.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514819027) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/fig_77.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514818953) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25428/Block_loading.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514819161)

Happy new year everyone.

Jed
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Banjo picker on January 01, 2018, 10:51:01 AM
I would like to get a copy of your manual.  Even though you are doing it manual, most of the rigging could be used with a hydraulic or pto winch.  I have a small track of large pine across a creek in a very wet area.  Banjo
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on January 01, 2018, 11:03:49 AM
All very good info

I came up with this dia on the Internet and it is pretty much what I am thinking of rigging up
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/image~126.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514822307)

Let's ignore the haul back line for now . If the two logs weigh 1000 lb total . How much strain will be on the high line assuming they are all the way of the ground .


How much strain assuming just the ends of the ground and the tails dragging

Quebecnewf

Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on January 01, 2018, 11:08:12 AM
Just read the block loading page again . Think I am getting the answers figured out now .

Best site in the world for all things sawmill and logging ...

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Offthebeatenpath on January 04, 2018, 11:51:42 AM
Banjo- I'll post a link to the manual when finished- it will be a free download. The writing was completed years ago, but the USFS engineers and editors have been ripping it apart without putting it back together since we finished with it in 2013.

Quebecnewf- In response to your question of how much strain- it really depends on the amount of deflection there is in the skyline, like Gary_C was saying.  Also- most of these systems utilize two power sources unless you set a fixed skyline. I like having the flexibility to raise and lower the skyline as needed with another power source.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dustintheblood on January 04, 2018, 09:06:16 PM
I'd say that the best part of the rigging and skidding that I did was the planning.  Sat with a bunch of friends and schemed it till it worked.  It really was amazing how it made the job easier having planned it out well in advance
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on January 05, 2018, 06:11:03 AM
Quote from: Offthebeatenpath on January 04, 2018, 11:51:42 AM
Banjo- I'll post a link to the manual when finished- it will be a free download. The writing was completed years ago, but the USFS engineers and editors have been ripping it apart without putting it back together since we finished with it in 2013.

Quebecnewf- In response to your question of how much strain- it really depends on the amount of deflection there is in the skyline, like Gary_C was saying.  Also- most of these systems utilize two power sources unless you set a fixed skyline. I like having the flexibility to raise and lower the skyline as needed with another power source.

I was thinking that a second power source would make things easier but I am thinking that is not going to be an option in my case . I am hoping that with proper planning and operation my skyline can remained fixed most of the time . If I have to slack it of I will be able to but not on every turn of logs .

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on January 05, 2018, 06:37:01 AM
Quote from: dustintheblood on January 04, 2018, 09:06:16 PM
I'd say that the best part of the rigging and skidding that I did was the planning.  Sat with a bunch of friends and schemed it till it worked.  It really was amazing how it made the job easier having planned it out well in advance


I  believe this is a very important point . Walking through a section of wood that you plan to cut and then stopping after you have given it a real good look over in my way of thinking is the most important step.

Trying to see how the land lies, where the trees are that you plan to cut, are there any brooks , or other obstacles that you have to work around are all things that have to be taken into account.

I think the ability to "see " the whole job in the context of trees to be cut, lay of the land' equipment you have, time to do, etc etc .is something that you get better at over time. I know for my self I am a better logger now than when I started. This is a combination of better tools but mostly a better understanding of how to fo the job better, easier, and faster.

It's important that I have improved in this way because age is trying and succeeding in slowing me down in other ways. Not ready to give in yet though . Hence the interest in this high lead idea

Quebecnewf
 
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: thecfarm on January 05, 2018, 08:48:10 PM
Ayup,I do the same thing with my woods.planning the job out. But no line rigging in my woods. Just a tractor and a chainsaw and one man and a bunch of trees to cut and leave.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on January 06, 2018, 10:01:30 AM
In the woods where I log nothing on wheels can be used. Ground is almost either too soft , too rough, too steep or a combination of all three.

Winter logging with the snow helps to overcome some of this but it's still a challenge .

There are some steep wall sided crooked brooks that I have passed over during the last number of years and I am thinking of revisiting them if this high lead system works out .

The high lead system might open up the possibility of logging in the fall before the snow as well .

Lots to ponder sketch up and plan .

Quebecnewf

Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 09:59:37 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12408/image~165.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1546093893)


Well it just about a year since I started thinking about this idea again. It's funny how when I'm waiting to start logging I get my mind scheming how it's going to work this coming season.

If you look at the above sketch ( thanks to Offthebeatenpath) for posting drawing.

Here's what I'm going to try. 
1. In the drawing,  the anchor point tree  will be higher than the tree with the pulley.
2. Replace the rock in the pic with two to three logs.
3. Get rid of the check rope that the guy is using .

I am going to try and explain how I see this working .

Run the high line approx 300 to 400 ft uphill through the woods
Attach to a tree at the top of the hill up high , say 25 ft of the ground. 
Cut a small trail along the high line enough to clear the trees so it can be raised. 
Attach to a tree at the bottom by means of one pulley high and one pulley down low. Winch is placed of to one side and is used to raise and lower the highline.

Cut logs all along by the highline route and place them in bunches that are located no more than say 50  ft to either side of the highline. 

Hook a snatch block over the lowered highline and connect it to two to four logs by means of short chokers .

High line is then raised with winch and as soon as the ends of the logs come of the ground gravity pulls them down the line to the bottom. The bottom end of the highline is located with an elevation that as the logs come rolling in they touch down on the ground and stop . Line is then lowered and winch man disconnects snatch block removing that twitch from the line.

Up at the top the " hooker " then attaches another snatch block with another twitch of logs and the high line is raised again repeating the process. 

After five or six turns depending on the number of snatch blocks  and chockers  you have at your disposal the "hooker" walks down and meets the winch man walking up with " traveling gear" that has been sent down and the process is repeated over again.

It sounds so simple just typing it up but I can see no reason why this system should not work for the logs that cut. My winch is slow but because the logs are doing most of their movement by gravity it should permit me to move them greater distance quickly.

Comments ?

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 29, 2018, 10:39:20 AM
So a logging zipline that you start and stop by tensioning or slackening the high line, yes?

Im trying to picture the problems youll encounter and the only one im seeing is if the spar trees bow too much to get sufficient lift on the logs.  I guess you could rig guy wires, or setup a second line to actually help pull the load down where it hangs up.  

I have recently acquired a tow truck wrecker boom with dual winches and a telescoping mast.  The top pulleys goes to 18ft off the ground and i have had visions of a baby high line helping fetch worthwhile logs from over these ridges with a cable trolley that starts ascending a high line when the choker bell hits it. Just day dreaming.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 10:54:57 AM
That's it a basic zip line logging system . The spar trees bending would not be an issue , at least I think not . Pick a bigger tree, maybe put stay. The top  , uphill tree would need the anchor point fairly high but because of its location on the hill you would not need to go to the very top and if you did have to go high and the tree was small a guy would solve this. 

The bottom tree you would be down lower on the tree in order to the logs that are zipping down to touch the ground before hitting the tree. My longest logs are 12 ft . Let's say pulley would 16 to 20 ft up the tree.

It would be great fun if it works to see those logs slashing down the hill. 

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 29, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
Yeah the setup i got only has 10k hydraulic winches with 1/2" cable so it would be for short bucked logs only. What my bobcat can reel in with an 8k electric winch when the boom is up over the cab was impressive enough to think there is merrit in the wrecker mast. Employing it in your top down fashion would be even more potent but then a haulback becomes necessary to get the cable and carriage back up the hill.  
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Skeans1 on December 29, 2018, 11:59:30 AM
Quote from: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 10:54:57 AM
That's it a basic zip line logging system . The spar trees bending would not be an issue , at least I think not . Pick a bigger tree, maybe put stay. The top  , uphill tree would need the anchor point fairly high but because of its location on the hill you would not need to go to the very top and if you did have to go high and the tree was small a guy would solve this.

The bottom tree you would be down lower on the tree in order to the logs that are zipping down to touch the ground before hitting the tree. My longest logs are 12 ft . Let's say pulley would 16 to 20 ft up the tree.

It would be great fun if it works to see those logs slashing down the hill.

Quebecnewf
So you're thinking a shot gun carriage with a spar tree for lift?
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 12:58:33 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
Yeah the setup i got only has 10k hydraulic winches with 1/2" cable so it would be for short bucked logs only. What my bobcat can reel in with an 8k electric winch when the boom is up over the cab was impressive enough to think there is merrit in the wrecker mast. Employing it in your top down fashion would be even more potent but then a haulback becomes necessary to get the cable and carriage back up the hill.  
No there would be no haul back . The carriage is no more than a snatch block hanging on the line. I would use approx five or six whatever I have on hand. Each shot would be one snatch block with anywhere from two to four logs attached . These are removed from the highline at the bottom by the winch man . In my case a winch woman ( wife) . After I have shot all my snatches I would walk down and pick them at the bottom and then walk back up and start over until all the logs are at the bottom. 
Quebecnewf 
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Ljohnsaw on December 29, 2018, 01:03:59 PM
Not sure of the capacity but what about using Zip line travelers?  They are made to be removed from the line easily.  Seems like they could be easier on the main line with a pair of pulleys supporting the load.  I can see you going up the hill with 5 or 6 snatch blocks.  You trip and let go and ZIP!  all gone down the hill :D

What a great idea with the zip line.  My problem is the reverse - I have to go up a big hill with some big logs.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 01:58:37 PM
I think the zip line travelers are a good idea. My snatch blocks will only be on the line going down . They are removed from the line at the bottom then carried back up and attached after the logs are chocked to them 

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: dustintheblood on December 29, 2018, 03:58:56 PM
Whhhhheeeeeeeeee


Makes me want to revisit my own setup and giver another go.

Was just chattin with the wife last night and she wants some big cedar roots.  The only ones that are adequate to keep her my wife are way down in a wet swamp.  This year we don't have snow yet - yet alone freezeup so far, so I may be tagging along behind QuebecNewf to do what he does right.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: curved-wood on December 29, 2018, 04:56:00 PM
Allo again Quebecnewf. Actually we did exactly that cable system when I was a teenager. We were a bunch of 15-16 years kids with no machinery and wanted to built a log cabin on free crown land to invite our girlfriend  ...may be to play doctor  :). A lot of motivations around. So we install a series of 4-5 cables between trees may be 15-20 feet from ground. One pulley per length because the cables were fixed with permanent clips. No winch, no motor, no slope. We attach one log at the time in the middle so the weight was balance. We easily slide by hand the log to the next tree, unhooked and hooked to the other length till we arrived at the camp site. If I remember well (that is 50 years ago and there are some more interesting part that I remember... :) ) the log was fairly close to the ground in the middle of the cable even if we tighten the cables with a come-along. The steel cable were good quality and came for Hydro-Quebec ''guy '' that hold electricity post, so it was not the stretching of the cable but more the pole trees that were bending specially if we have an angle between the lines. 
If you have a down slope I would think about the speed the log could gain. May be the winch could slow down the speed.
My son install a canopy sling for his son at his house. A lot of info on the net  concerning the slope and how to calculate the deflection if you want the kid to arrive at the platform. Kid has a breaking system.
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: mike_belben on December 29, 2018, 05:10:22 PM
I know that yours is snatch blocks and gravity with no haulback.  I was talking about my own setup. 
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 05:49:47 PM
Been looking at those zip line travelers. They would be the real thing for this type of plan. Two pulleys to spread the load . Made to put on a line and take off. I bet if you knew of someone operating a zip line park they have hundreds lying around. I am sure that as they are used to hang people on they are changed quite often. 

If you knew the right place most likely you could get a bunch for a good price.

I'm committed to trying this this winter rather than discussing it and not giving it a try. I will buy a coil of " crab fishing rope " for now and try it with that. If it dose t work out I can always give the rope to my cousin for crab fishing .

Quebecnewf
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: John Mc on December 29, 2018, 06:43:13 PM
You may have this sort of info already, but this page was helpful when I was setting up a zipline for people to ride over our pond:
https://www.ziplinegear.com/pages/how-to-build-a-zip-line (https://www.ziplinegear.com/pages/how-to-build-a-zip-line)

Some of it may not apply in your situation (this uses a calculated slope and sag to assure you stop before the end, since running a person into the ground to stop them is not really an option).
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 07:39:10 PM
Some interesting reading for sure. I guess " when " I start shooting slings of logs down the hill I will have to go back and reread some of the "sag " details after my first shot smashes out the down hill tree and takes out the winch man as it passes by . 

Might need slow motion video to capture where I made my mistake .

Going to be a fun project I think . Time well wasted . I always say

Quebecnewf.

This site has all the answers . If you can't find someone on here who has not already tried it . You should most likely not try it yourself ....

Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: chet on December 29, 2018, 09:01:23 PM
Quote from: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 07:39:10 PM
This site has all the answers . If you can't find someone on here who has not already tried it . You should most likely not try it yourself ....

Quebecnewf
:)  :D :D  
Title: Re: Small scale rope high lead logging system
Post by: Old Greenhorn on January 03, 2019, 06:34:51 PM
Now I feel a little silly. I was taking some trees back in May and it was on a steep slope, could hardly stand. No way to get in to skid them down either. I toyed with this idea. I even checked out and piled up my cables and found some blocks to use. Then I gave up on the idea thinking it silly. I cut the logs into 6 footers and rolled them down by hand so I could reach them with the winch cable. It was no easy task. Next time I will think otherwise. Good on you guys!