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How does a properly sharpened chain compare to a new chain?

Started by Ward Barnes, April 02, 2012, 06:08:45 PM

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Ward Barnes

Howdy Folks:

I have reached the point in the cutting of a wind fallen oak that is about 9 feet from the root ball.  At this point the tree has a bulge in the trunk that is 6 inches larger then the rest of the trunk that is 22 inches in dia.  Cutting into this bulge is some kind of tough.  My chain is sharp and the rakers are at their proper height and the chain is pulling chips.  The problem is in the speed of cutting through this area.  Would the purchase of a new chain to use in these cuts make sense?  In other words how does a properly sharpened chain compare to a new chain?

MS 390 w/18 inch bar and yellow Stihl chain (33 RSC 66).

God Bless, Ward and Mary.
7 year old Stihl MS 390.  New Stihl trim saw MS 250.  Kubota BX 2200 tractor.  2005 F150 4X4.
Dull chains cause accidents.  Accidents cause shorter life spans.
You don't sharpen a chain when it gets dull.  You sharpen a chain to keep it from getting dull.

beenthere

Ward
I find a hand sharpened chain is better than the ones I've purchased new. 

So... don't know what ta tell ya.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

DDDfarmer

Never found a new chain out of the box all that great until sharpened.
Treefarmer C5C with cancar 20 (gearmatic 119) winch, Husky 562xp 576xp chainsaws

sparky1

Ive never sharpened on myself, but when I have a guy sharpen mine there better than new.
Shaun J

Ianab

I agree with the others, a properly resharpened chain should even work a bit better than a brand new one.

It's sorta the way I judge my sharpening ability. I can get a chain to cut as "good as new", a real expert can get it to cut better.  ;)

It may be the part of the log you are cutting has a large knot or some other sort of crazy grain or reaction wood. Something is obviously happening there to have formed the bulge? This means you might end up ripping though an old dead knot from the end grain. This of going to slow you down no matter what saw and chain you are using.

As long as the saw is still sharp, you are still pulling chips, the bar is still lubing etc, just keep gnawing at it.  :-\
But when you get it cut, have a good look at the grain in there, I bet there is something weird about it.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

lumberjack48

I sharpened a new chain before i used it. The sharpest chain, best cutting chain out of the box is a Carlton chain.

Your cutting though a burl, they can get real hard, wood grain is twisted or timber bound.

They will take the edge off the cutters, I've had to touch the chain up a couple times when cutting a big burl.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

lonewolf

Bet your bar is worn out!! A worn bar allows cutters to tip left or right of center. Basically your chain isfighting itself. I sharpen every chain right out of the box and take the rakers down also. Don't buy your saw chain from the local box store. They sell u stuff with so much anti - kick and safety b.s. on it I wouldn't use it for ice sculpting.
"EARTH FIRST"  WE'LL LOG THE OTHER PLANETS LATER

Ward Barnes

Quote from: lonewolf on April 02, 2012, 09:53:46 PM
Bet your bar is worn out!! A worn bar allows cutters to tip left or right of center. Basically your chain isfighting itself. I sharpen every chain right out of the box and take the rakers down also. Don't buy your saw chain from the local box store. They sell u stuff with so much anti - kick and safety b.s. on it I wouldn't use it for ice sculpting.

Lonewolf:  I agree on not buying chains from a big box store.  I work in one and would shudder if I had to buy one of ours.  I even had another employee argue with me in front of a customer when I suggested to him how often a chain needs to be sharpened.

Speaking of BBS's (Big Box Stores) we accepted a return on a chain saw that had a broken bar.  Gave him a new saw.  Humm... How do you free a stuck bar?  Use the rest of the saw as a lever.

As far as the bar being worn you are probably on target.  The bar has been on this saw one year and has seen a good deal of use including a stint with Operation Blessing after the tornado came to town last April.   Recently I had the bar catch in the wood and had to use a screwdriver to open the bar track to get the chain moving again.  Maybe I can get my Stihl dealer to give me a new saw.   :D

God Bless, Ward and Mary

7 year old Stihl MS 390.  New Stihl trim saw MS 250.  Kubota BX 2200 tractor.  2005 F150 4X4.
Dull chains cause accidents.  Accidents cause shorter life spans.
You don't sharpen a chain when it gets dull.  You sharpen a chain to keep it from getting dull.

John Mc

You know, if you run across another good burl, people who are into turning wood often are looking for those. The odd grain makes for some interesting pieces. I've seen some great wooden bowls made from burls.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

Now this deal of filing a chain that perplexs some people goes like this .You will never get any good at it until you do it .

You don't have get fancy and change the angles as some seem to think .You don't need a race chain to cut firewood .

Just follow the factory prescribed method which can be found on any chain manufacturs web sites .Get that down pat then worry about enhancements if you so desire . Ya gotsta walk before you run now . ;)

angelo c

Any chance the log you are cutting is under a large amount of tension and you are on the compression side ? Just a thought.... 
wife,kids,dog,t-shirts to prove it

petefrom bearswamp

I always file the rakers a bit below specs and my chains cut like a champ!!
Tuning the saw with the jets to get maximum RPM helps enormously too.
Pete
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Bandmill Bandit

When I install a new chain, I sharpen it BEFORE I take the saw out to the bush or wood pile too cut wood. That is how i was taught to do it. YES it is now a habit but it works for me.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

mredden

Quote from: Ward Barnes on April 02, 2012, 06:08:45 PM
Howdy Folks:

I have reached the point in the cutting of a wind fallen oak that is about 9 feet from the root ball.  At this point the tree has a bulge in the trunk that is 6 inches larger then the rest of the trunk that is 22 inches in dia.  Cutting into this bulge is some kind of tough.  My chain is sharp and the rakers are at their proper height and the chain is pulling chips.  The problem is in the speed of cutting through this area.  Would the purchase of a new chain to use in these cuts make sense?  In other words how does a properly sharpened chain compare to a new chain?

MS 390 w/18 inch bar and yellow Stihl chain (33 RSC 66).

God Bless, Ward and Mary.
You are in Virginia? Coastal area? Is it Quercus virginiana (live oak)? That's not just "oak." It's the hardest commonly encountered wood in north america. It's twice as hard as other oaks. It also has a tendency to twist and bulge in its trunk (though almost always shorter than nine feet)

Nasty stuff if that's what you've gotten into. Sharpen, sharpen sharpen, It dulls your chain fast and leaves the cutters coated in a brown sap that dries and hardens to the cutters quickly.



A month ago, I scoffed at those who claimed to sharpen better than new. Then, I repaired a barb-wire-damaged chain using a guide, calipers, magnifier, metric scale and progressive raker gauge. I spent the time (for once) to do it right on all angles. I found a lot of problems with my previous sharpenings of that chain. A LOT! After getting all but six cutters the same length and despite having those six straight cutters (3 each side) that are considerably shorter than the others, this chain cuts at least as well brand new. That made me resharpen all my chains with discipline. They do cut better than new.


Everything I had sharpened before then had been poorly done - at best. No more free hand even in the field.

esteadle

There's a good discussion of Red Oak and White Oak vs. chainsaws over on ArboristSite here:
Is oak hard on chains? | Arboristsite.com


I'm leaning toward the comment that says: 

Is the soil around there predominantly sandy or sandy loam?

Usually Oak isn't too bad on chains, frozen or not, unless the local soil has gotten into the bark, then it's game on, and time to grab a loop of semi-chisel. High silica soils can also make for trees that eat chains. I can go 5 Miles from here and get double the time between touch ups, but head into our woodlot, and the sparks fly from the silica


This is my experience too. Red oaks around SW PA can pick up a lot of minerals, especially near the butt of the log. I had a job late last year on a 45" 20' windfall. I started at the top and worked my way down, and I could feel the saw getting duller as I pressed into the core of the tree. As I got into the last 10' of the butt, I had to file my brand new chains on every tank of fuel.

When I pulled it out and looked closely at the chain, it looked like I had put it into the dirt (but I hadn't). The top face of the cutters were ground down almost 25% of the way to the back of the cutter, and I had to file so hard to get them sharp again, I lost a good portion of their service life. I can often get a cutter sharp in 3 strokes, but I was taking 10-15 or more and rotating the file as well, just to get them back to usable. And that took so much back, I had to file rakers each time too. 

I figured it was one of those logs where some old timer "fixed" it by pouring concrete into a hole, but when I finally got the pieces apart, all I could see was a greyish-brown cast in the center of the log where it must have been pulling in silica. A couple of embedded rocks were closer to the root ball, but I never hit those with the saw. 


mredden

Quote from: esteadle on March 13, 2019, 08:45:14 PM
There's a good discussion of Red Oak and White Oak vs. chainsaws over on ArboristSite here:
Is oak hard on chains? | Arboristsite.com


I'm leaning toward the comment that says:

Is the soil around there predominantly sandy or sandy loam?

Usually Oak isn't too bad on chains, frozen or not, unless the local soil has gotten into the bark, then it's game on, and time to grab a loop of semi-chisel. High silica soils can also make for trees that eat chains. I can go 5 Miles from here and get double the time between touch ups, but head into our woodlot, and the sparks fly from the silica


This is my experience too. Red oaks around SW PA can pick up a lot of minerals, especially near the butt of the log. I had a job late last year on a 45" 20' windfall. I started at the top and worked my way down, and I could feel the saw getting duller as I pressed into the core of the tree. As I got into the last 10' of the butt, I had to file my brand new chains on every tank of fuel.

When I pulled it out and looked closely at the chain, it looked like I had put it into the dirt (but I hadn't). The top face of the cutters were ground down almost 25% of the way to the back of the cutter, and I had to file so hard to get them sharp again, I lost a good portion of their service life. I can often get a cutter sharp in 3 strokes, but I was taking 10-15 or more and rotating the file as well, just to get them back to usable. And that took so much back, I had to file rakers each time too.

I figured it was one of those logs where some old timer "fixed" it by pouring concrete into a hole, but when I finally got the pieces apart, all I could see was a greyish-brown cast in the center of the log where it must have been pulling in silica. A couple of embedded rocks were closer to the root ball, but I never hit those with the saw.
There are several types of white oak and several types of red oak. The different types have different hardness. Then, there is Live Oak which is a different animal altogether.
-

Here are just a few :
Southern Red Oak - Janka Hardness 1,060 lbf
chestnut oak - 1,130 ------------ a sub variety of white oak
Black Oak 1,210 lbf -------------  a subvariety of red oak
Northern Red Oak 1,290 lbf
Eastern White Oak - 1,350 lbf
Pin Oak - 1,500 lbf-------------- a sub variety of red oak
Live Oak - 2,680 lbf some say it's white oak, some say it needs its own separate classification
-

Of course, dirt, gravel, sand and metal also appear. I only know that the red oak down here mills like butter even when dirty. You can barely mill clean live oak - (and its limbs are dirty, dirty, dirty with layers of fern and decayed fern.) I can mill only one 8 footer one pass then have to re-sharpen.
The amazing thing is that fighting ships like the USS Constitution had naturally curved Live Oak limbs for the "ribs". Hewn by hand!

Bthomasb3

I just bought a new 362 cm and it has that goofy stihl chain with double rakers on it.so i cut a couple loads of firewood with it and was starting to get disappointed a little,i thought it should cut better.Then i hit dirt dangit so i sharpened the chain and hit the rakers a bit and its like a different saw it cuts so much better that before.so i would have to say i learned today that a new chain needs some work!

medved

Just picked up a new saw and hadn't used a factory new chain in a while. Boy did I forget how lacking the factory tune is on those chains! Some very light touch-up had this saw throwing chips and screaming through some tough madrona.

Always curious why they come this way, figured there must be a reason...

lxskllr

Quote from: medved on March 17, 2019, 05:41:58 PM


Always curious why they come this way, figured there must be a reason...
Might be good enough is good enough. They go through factory processing, then either wrapped on a reel, or get stuffed in a box where they rattle around as they get the deluxe world tour. The sharper it is, the easier it dulls. They probably aim for a competent edge with all angles correct, and figure the end user can touch it up as they see fit.

medved

Quote from: lxskllr on March 17, 2019, 05:59:34 PM
Quote from: medved on March 17, 2019, 05:41:58 PM


Always curious why they come this way, figured there must be a reason...
Might be good enough is good enough. They go through factory processing, then either wrapped on a reel, or get stuffed in a box where they rattle around as they get the deluxe world tour. The sharper it is, the easier it dulls. They probably aim for a competent edge with all angles correct, and figure the end user can touch it up as they see fit.
Duh, makes perfect sense, sharp edges are more fragile!
I don't mind, I love sharpening  :)

Skeans1

Quote from: lxskllr on March 17, 2019, 05:59:34 PM
Quote from: medved on March 17, 2019, 05:41:58 PM


Always curious why they come this way, figured there must be a reason...
Might be good enough is good enough. They go through factory processing, then either wrapped on a reel, or get stuffed in a box where they rattle around as they get the deluxe world tour. The sharper it is, the easier it dulls. They probably aim for a competent edge with all angles correct, and figure the end user can touch it up as they see fit.
Only true on a round cutter, a square will be at its sharpest as well as strongest when you line up the corner of the cutter. Even a good ground round cutter is slow and inefficient in the cut if you need speed you might try a square ground chain it's really a night and day difference.

lxskllr

Quote from: Skeans1 on March 22, 2019, 08:25:41 AMOnly true on a round cutter, a square will be at its sharpest as well as strongest when you line up the corner of the cutter. Even a good ground round cutter is slow and inefficient in the cut if you need speed you might try a square ground chain it's really a night and day difference.

The finer the edge, the more easily it gets damaged. It's like a quality kitchen knife. If you throw it in the dishwasher, or in the drawer with the flatware, you're gonna ruin the edge. It'll get dinged, chipped, and rubbed dull just from being in contact with other things. In contrast, I could baton a butterknife through a piece of oak, and it'll have substantially the same quality edge it had before I started.


Quality edges on a saw are lost on me. I cut too much junk to make it worth the effort. I've pretty much standardized on semi chisel chain, with a couple loops of full chisel to use when I get the rare clean cutting day.

Skeans1

@lxskllr 
To a point, with a round style tooth you have a hook which is your weak corner. Now a square tooth or a chisel the corner actually meets the top of the cutter plate for a stronger tooth. http://www.madsens1.com/muu_barchain.htm
Lots of good reading from Madsens

lxskllr

Quote from: Skeans1 on March 23, 2019, 08:54:21 AM
@lxskllr
To a point, with a round style tooth you have a hook which is your weak corner. Now a square tooth or a chisel the corner actually meets the top of the cutter plate for a stronger tooth. http://www.madsens1.com/muu_barchain.htm
Lots of good reading from Madsens


I think we're arguing two different points. I'm saying a fine edge from the factory makes almost zero sense when the chain gets slung around by robots, wrapped on a reel, or put in the box where it can do nothing but get duller on its journey to the end user. The factory provided edge is sufficient for the average home user, so there's no complaints, and an experienced user is expected to make the chain to their liking. Being a little duller holds the edge it has better. Note my butterknife example above.



I'm not sure the point you're making(?) is supported by your linked document...



QuoteRound Chain - This chain is the easiest to sharpen. An average user can do it with a round file and have good results. It also has the best stay-sharp-ability of the three cutter teeth. Its cutting edge is more durable that those on either square tooth chain. This can be explained by the fact that the edge on a round cutter tooth is larger and better supported.
Understanding Cutter Teeth On Pro Saw Chain



If you're talking about physical shear strength, I may still not agree. I'd have to study it some more, but that's getting beyond field use, and turning into abuse. If you're stressing a cutter so much it might buckle or peel apart, it probably isn't gonna cut regardless of edge, and you'll need to be installing a new chain.

Al_Smith

Yesterday I cut a small dead fall ash off a fence .It was a little one so I used a little saw ,Stihl 024 .I had replaced the chain last fall ,cut up one small hickory tree ,standing dead  and never used it since .I managed to derail the chain from not paying attention .When I filed it I noticed it was a typical Oregon ,the gullet was a tad shallow .
I'll hit it two or three more times using a guide then use a bare file and take the gullet right down to the tie strap .Then it will cut like nobodies business .
Keep in mind this is round chisel and on dead ,hard as a rock trees they will dull faster than semi chisel .It cuts faster so it's a trade off .

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