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Small scale rope high lead logging system

Started by Quebecnewf, December 25, 2017, 05:46:51 PM

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MbfVA

FWIW, I bought 150 ft of 14K# rated Samson blue 0.5 in rigging rope for $130 recently, at a forestry eq store, RBI, near Richmond VA.  Stable Braid 1/2D Blue 150.  Heavy stuff.
www.ordinary.com (really)

Quebecnewf

Looked over your pics . It seems you do a lot of rigging . Would love to sit and talk shop but the best we can do is trade ideas and info on this great site.

I have very little experience in high lead logging in any form . I have loads of experience in moving things with ropes winches and tackles.

My interest in the high lead logging method is being sparked by the strength of these new ( to me ) ropes.

My winch has 2500 lbs line pull so the rope is more than strong enough. If I can find something not to out of this world expensive and given the small logs I want to move I am thinking I can go with a high line of 5/16" dia. Now I know this sounds small but I am not planning to fly these logs , just tail drag them .

Still working on the details . Family commitments will keep me from logging until Feb.

Quebecnewf

Gary_C

Two concerns I have for your consideration.

One, synthetic rope tends to stretch much more than steel cable. That stretch may make it unsuitable for your highline even though it's higher break values are attractive.

Two, the tension in your highline must be a multiple of the weight you are lifting. For example a 5 degree sag between your supports will require a tension of about 5.75 times the weight you are lifting. A 15 degree sag will require a tension of about 2 times the weight you are lifting. A 30 degree sag will require the same tension as the weight you are lifting.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

mike_belben

Climbing and repelling lines seem have a bit more stretch than bullropes in my experience.  And id still say go half inch plus.  A rope around a pulley is now half the diameter worth since only half of it is in tension anymore
Praise The Lord

Quebecnewf

Very interesting responses . Giving more and more info to mull over. I am going to try and draw up some pics of my planned setup today using sketch up . I will post them up and then we can try and figure out some of the forces and strain that will be put on the ropes.

The pic from Alaska is a log way bigger than I am talking about . Once again the west coast east coast thing . My logs fall in the following range .

All spruce and balsam fir .
Lengths of 8/10/12. Average dia at top end 7 to 8 " so as you can see a small run of logs .

Quebecnewf




Offthebeatenpath

@Quebecnewf- I'm looking forward to seeing your sketchups. I'll try and post a couple illustrations of systems that I often use for moving materials to build trails. They aren't logging specific, but there is a lot of overlap.

There are a lot of ways to go about setting up yarding systems for pulling loads up and down hill. There are many variations of high leads and double highleads, highlines and skylines with and without belays and haul back lines, etc. Most are site and equipment specific. Basically, if you look at what folks have done for many decades out west and downsize for your smaller loads, you can meet your objectives with smaller and less expensive equipment.

I would definitely continue with your rope research. @Mike_Belben is right- climbing (and sometimes repelling) lines are usually dynamic (aka stretchy) while bull lines are usually static (aka not stretchy). I'm not sure that I understand the comment about a rope around a pulley being half the diameter because only half is in tension... I think Mike may be getting at the concept of a D:d or bend ratio that dictates how line strength is reduced as it is bent. Some fibers/wires are compressed and others take tension. The tighter the bend, the more the strength is reduced. Same reason why knots reduce a rope's strength, some knots more than others.

@Gary_C also brings up a really good point about deflection (aka sag). The more deflection, the less stress on anchors and your power source. However, you will have more stress on your spar (lifting) blocks. The example of 5 degrees of sag = almost 6 times load weight and 30 degrees of sag = same as load weight isn't incorrect, but it is a bit of an oversimplification. There is friction involved, dynamic loading from load movement, changing vector forces as the angles change, etc.

Most synthetic ropes do have more stretch than wire rope (cable), but not all. The amount of stretch varies tremendously. The new HMPE spectra ropes actually have almost the exact same elongation as cable. It seems like they stretch a bit, but it is just the weave of the rope tightening up. After it is compressed, there is the same amount of stretch as your standard skidder winch cable.

All the best.

Jed
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Offthebeatenpath

Here are a few illustrations of rigging systems that we use in the woods. They are all generally powered with hand powered or capstan hoists and are not production oriented- in other words, darn slow.  My fiancĂ© drew these for a manual that I am helping put together for the USFS.



  

  

  

  

  

 

Happy new year everyone.

Jed
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Banjo picker

I would like to get a copy of your manual.  Even though you are doing it manual, most of the rigging could be used with a hydraulic or pto winch.  I have a small track of large pine across a creek in a very wet area.  Banjo
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

Quebecnewf

All very good info

I came up with this dia on the Internet and it is pretty much what I am thinking of rigging up


Let's ignore the haul back line for now . If the two logs weigh 1000 lb total . How much strain will be on the high line assuming they are all the way of the ground .


How much strain assuming just the ends of the ground and the tails dragging

Quebecnewf


Quebecnewf

Just read the block loading page again . Think I am getting the answers figured out now .

Best site in the world for all things sawmill and logging ...

Quebecnewf

Offthebeatenpath

Banjo- I'll post a link to the manual when finished- it will be a free download. The writing was completed years ago, but the USFS engineers and editors have been ripping it apart without putting it back together since we finished with it in 2013.

Quebecnewf- In response to your question of how much strain- it really depends on the amount of deflection there is in the skyline, like Gary_C was saying.  Also- most of these systems utilize two power sources unless you set a fixed skyline. I like having the flexibility to raise and lower the skyline as needed with another power source.
1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

dustintheblood

I'd say that the best part of the rigging and skidding that I did was the planning.  Sat with a bunch of friends and schemed it till it worked.  It really was amazing how it made the job easier having planned it out well in advance
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

Quebecnewf

Quote from: Offthebeatenpath on January 04, 2018, 11:51:42 AM
Banjo- I'll post a link to the manual when finished- it will be a free download. The writing was completed years ago, but the USFS engineers and editors have been ripping it apart without putting it back together since we finished with it in 2013.

Quebecnewf- In response to your question of how much strain- it really depends on the amount of deflection there is in the skyline, like Gary_C was saying.  Also- most of these systems utilize two power sources unless you set a fixed skyline. I like having the flexibility to raise and lower the skyline as needed with another power source.

I was thinking that a second power source would make things easier but I am thinking that is not going to be an option in my case . I am hoping that with proper planning and operation my skyline can remained fixed most of the time . If I have to slack it of I will be able to but not on every turn of logs .

Quebecnewf

Quebecnewf

Quote from: dustintheblood on January 04, 2018, 09:06:16 PM
I'd say that the best part of the rigging and skidding that I did was the planning.  Sat with a bunch of friends and schemed it till it worked.  It really was amazing how it made the job easier having planned it out well in advance


I  believe this is a very important point . Walking through a section of wood that you plan to cut and then stopping after you have given it a real good look over in my way of thinking is the most important step.

Trying to see how the land lies, where the trees are that you plan to cut, are there any brooks , or other obstacles that you have to work around are all things that have to be taken into account.

I think the ability to "see " the whole job in the context of trees to be cut, lay of the land' equipment you have, time to do, etc etc .is something that you get better at over time. I know for my self I am a better logger now than when I started. This is a combination of better tools but mostly a better understanding of how to fo the job better, easier, and faster.

It's important that I have improved in this way because age is trying and succeeding in slowing me down in other ways. Not ready to give in yet though . Hence the interest in this high lead idea

Quebecnewf
 

thecfarm

Ayup,I do the same thing with my woods.planning the job out. But no line rigging in my woods. Just a tractor and a chainsaw and one man and a bunch of trees to cut and leave.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Quebecnewf

In the woods where I log nothing on wheels can be used. Ground is almost either too soft , too rough, too steep or a combination of all three.

Winter logging with the snow helps to overcome some of this but it's still a challenge .

There are some steep wall sided crooked brooks that I have passed over during the last number of years and I am thinking of revisiting them if this high lead system works out .

The high lead system might open up the possibility of logging in the fall before the snow as well .

Lots to ponder sketch up and plan .

Quebecnewf


Quebecnewf





Well it just about a year since I started thinking about this idea again. It's funny how when I'm waiting to start logging I get my mind scheming how it's going to work this coming season.

If you look at the above sketch ( thanks to Offthebeatenpath) for posting drawing.

Here's what I'm going to try. 
1. In the drawing,  the anchor point tree  will be higher than the tree with the pulley.
2. Replace the rock in the pic with two to three logs.
3. Get rid of the check rope that the guy is using .

I am going to try and explain how I see this working .

Run the high line approx 300 to 400 ft uphill through the woods
Attach to a tree at the top of the hill up high , say 25 ft of the ground. 
Cut a small trail along the high line enough to clear the trees so it can be raised. 
Attach to a tree at the bottom by means of one pulley high and one pulley down low. Winch is placed of to one side and is used to raise and lower the highline.

Cut logs all along by the highline route and place them in bunches that are located no more than say 50  ft to either side of the highline. 

Hook a snatch block over the lowered highline and connect it to two to four logs by means of short chokers .

High line is then raised with winch and as soon as the ends of the logs come of the ground gravity pulls them down the line to the bottom. The bottom end of the highline is located with an elevation that as the logs come rolling in they touch down on the ground and stop . Line is then lowered and winch man disconnects snatch block removing that twitch from the line.

Up at the top the " hooker " then attaches another snatch block with another twitch of logs and the high line is raised again repeating the process. 

After five or six turns depending on the number of snatch blocks  and chockers  you have at your disposal the "hooker" walks down and meets the winch man walking up with " traveling gear" that has been sent down and the process is repeated over again.

It sounds so simple just typing it up but I can see no reason why this system should not work for the logs that cut. My winch is slow but because the logs are doing most of their movement by gravity it should permit me to move them greater distance quickly.

Comments ?

Quebecnewf

mike_belben

So a logging zipline that you start and stop by tensioning or slackening the high line, yes?

Im trying to picture the problems youll encounter and the only one im seeing is if the spar trees bow too much to get sufficient lift on the logs.  I guess you could rig guy wires, or setup a second line to actually help pull the load down where it hangs up.  

I have recently acquired a tow truck wrecker boom with dual winches and a telescoping mast.  The top pulleys goes to 18ft off the ground and i have had visions of a baby high line helping fetch worthwhile logs from over these ridges with a cable trolley that starts ascending a high line when the choker bell hits it. Just day dreaming.
Praise The Lord

Quebecnewf

That's it a basic zip line logging system . The spar trees bending would not be an issue , at least I think not . Pick a bigger tree, maybe put stay. The top  , uphill tree would need the anchor point fairly high but because of its location on the hill you would not need to go to the very top and if you did have to go high and the tree was small a guy would solve this. 

The bottom tree you would be down lower on the tree in order to the logs that are zipping down to touch the ground before hitting the tree. My longest logs are 12 ft . Let's say pulley would 16 to 20 ft up the tree.

It would be great fun if it works to see those logs slashing down the hill. 

Quebecnewf

mike_belben

Yeah the setup i got only has 10k hydraulic winches with 1/2" cable so it would be for short bucked logs only. What my bobcat can reel in with an 8k electric winch when the boom is up over the cab was impressive enough to think there is merrit in the wrecker mast. Employing it in your top down fashion would be even more potent but then a haulback becomes necessary to get the cable and carriage back up the hill.  
Praise The Lord

Skeans1

Quote from: Quebecnewf on December 29, 2018, 10:54:57 AM
That's it a basic zip line logging system . The spar trees bending would not be an issue , at least I think not . Pick a bigger tree, maybe put stay. The top  , uphill tree would need the anchor point fairly high but because of its location on the hill you would not need to go to the very top and if you did have to go high and the tree was small a guy would solve this.

The bottom tree you would be down lower on the tree in order to the logs that are zipping down to touch the ground before hitting the tree. My longest logs are 12 ft . Let's say pulley would 16 to 20 ft up the tree.

It would be great fun if it works to see those logs slashing down the hill.

Quebecnewf
So you're thinking a shot gun carriage with a spar tree for lift?

Quebecnewf

Quote from: mike_belben on December 29, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
Yeah the setup i got only has 10k hydraulic winches with 1/2" cable so it would be for short bucked logs only. What my bobcat can reel in with an 8k electric winch when the boom is up over the cab was impressive enough to think there is merrit in the wrecker mast. Employing it in your top down fashion would be even more potent but then a haulback becomes necessary to get the cable and carriage back up the hill.  
No there would be no haul back . The carriage is no more than a snatch block hanging on the line. I would use approx five or six whatever I have on hand. Each shot would be one snatch block with anywhere from two to four logs attached . These are removed from the highline at the bottom by the winch man . In my case a winch woman ( wife) . After I have shot all my snatches I would walk down and pick them at the bottom and then walk back up and start over until all the logs are at the bottom. 
Quebecnewf 

Ljohnsaw

Not sure of the capacity but what about using Zip line travelers?  They are made to be removed from the line easily.  Seems like they could be easier on the main line with a pair of pulleys supporting the load.  I can see you going up the hill with 5 or 6 snatch blocks.  You trip and let go and ZIP!  all gone down the hill :D

What a great idea with the zip line.  My problem is the reverse - I have to go up a big hill with some big logs.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Quebecnewf

I think the zip line travelers are a good idea. My snatch blocks will only be on the line going down . They are removed from the line at the bottom then carried back up and attached after the logs are chocked to them 

Quebecnewf

dustintheblood

Whhhhheeeeeeeeee


Makes me want to revisit my own setup and giver another go.

Was just chattin with the wife last night and she wants some big cedar roots.  The only ones that are adequate to keep her my wife are way down in a wet swamp.  This year we don't have snow yet - yet alone freezeup so far, so I may be tagging along behind QuebecNewf to do what he does right.
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

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