When sawing by the BF, do you charge say 25 cents for 1" thick then 50 cents for 2" etc
It works out that way but bf is bf whether 4/4 or 8/4 lumber. I charge the same for a stack of lumber 8'L X 2' high X 4' wide whether that is a stack of 12 2X's or 24 1X's.
I just saw what the customer wants then tally up the height, length and width to determine the bf sawed and multiply by my sawing rate.
I do the same, that seems to be a fair way for the sawyer and the customer, thanks for the reply.
I take my Logrite ruler and measure the small end of each log.
If its a good straight log.....thats more lumber for the customer.
If the log is crooked.....then the customer will not yield has much board footage as the ruler indicated.
I thought you charged $300.
PC
Millwright,
This is one of the most frequently raised topics on the Forum. There are a wide range of methods; you'll need to consider your location, the type of equipment, and several other factors in order to reach the most appropriate method for your situation.
Although it may come down to either charging by the hour, or by the board foot, even then there are variations. Some charge by the hour; from the time they arrive to the time they leave. Others may use the hour meter on the mill to determine the number of hours (and many other variations).
In your original question, let's assume that you mill a log that yields 200 board feet (understanding that you wouldn't get the same yield from a log of 4/4 versus 8/4); if you charged .25 per board foot for 4/4 you would net $50. If you charged .50 p/bf for 8/4, you would net $100 for half as many cuts/boards. That doesn't seem fair to me.
I normally charge by the board foot, and fees vary by the thickness; thicker boards are less per board foot. Hourly rate is my "fail safe" for low-yield milling; shorts, small diameter, specialty milling like cookies, etc. It does take a few minutes longer to figure up the invoice at the end of the day, but I do it on a tablet which calculates the board footage, and the milling fee. IMO, it is fair for both sides.
I strongly encourage you to get an accurate handle on what it costs you to operate your mill. Setting your fees before you know your costs can be disastrous. It certainly is not a one-size-fits-all process.
Tom,
I understand and agree if that works for you. I fear I would chase off many customers if I had different rates for different thickness, length and diameter. In my case I use only bf and hourly. As you discuss specialty sawing is hourly as is short, small, crooked, QS, etc.. that takes too much of my time.
The analysis you describe is a good idea. Each sawyer should have a decent understanding of his costs and ensure he is profitable IMO. Sometimes the best you job you have is the one you refuse.
WV,
I agree that three variables would be confusing, I only have one - thickness. Most clients only have two or three thicknesses; if I tell them that 4/4 is .50 p/bf and 8/4 is .40 p/bf, no one has had any difficulty understanding.
Understanding the different ways of setting fees should be helpful, no matter which a new sawyer picks. Fortunately, as independent businesses, we can choose the methodology that best suits our market and philosophy.
I just charge .30 bdft straight across or $50 hr.
Quote from: Tom the Sawyer on August 10, 2017, 05:33:19 PM
if I tell them that 4/4 is .50 p/bf and 8/4 is .40 p/bf, no one has had any difficulty understanding.
Tom,
You sound like you are luckier than me if your customers have no difficulty understanding. :D Most of the time I have to give a lesson on what a bf is and how it is computed as way too many of the people I deal with act like they have never heard of a bf. And in all honesty in today's world they may not be taught about it.
And like the (old saying) here on the FF......Some days you don't make anything. :)
I charge $100 per hour. Logs brought to me. That's from the second I touch the logs to when I load the lumber. Also includes my time with the metal detector.
I am at $.35 bdft and I say what a board foot is or $75 hour and I pick which.
PC
irvi00...I totally agree. Per hour has always worked best for me. If your production rate is good and steady than both parties are happy in the end, no matter how thick or long. I know the hourly rate covers the cost, makes a decent profit and have yet to have a person complain.
Same as J B Griffin
I charge $70 hr. Starting when I arrive until I get loaded back up. Plus $1.75 a mile one way.
My rate is $75 hr. plus $2 a mile trip plus $50 set up fee. Cut 2100 BF (4 big red oak) in 4 hours today. I was happy with $500 and customer was happy with the beautiful large slabs. Mostly 1 1/8th and a fee 1 1/2 inch thick.
woodman58 and woodweasel...exactly...if you figure your production against you fee your customer paid $0.23 per board foot. you made $500.00 and produced 2100 b/f ... 500 divided by 2100 = $0.238 cents per b/f... that is what keeps customers coming back and word of mouth spread. Now take your $500 and divide that by 4..= $125.00 per hour. So you actually made $451.17... per hour less $48.30 which is what the $0.23 x 2100 equates to. Your total per hour actual charge is 112.92 per hour less how ever you personally figure your operating cost.
Woodman 58 is that $2.00 a mile, one way? Or both ways?
In addition to the fees discussed...mileage, set-up, per hour, per BF varying with thickness...
Does anyone charge extra for scanning logs for metal?
Does anyone also charge extra for blades that hit metal?
What about debarking logs that have stones in the bark or lots of mud?
Doc,
I charge $25 every time I hit metal. I don't scan customer logs and never plan to as I want that to remain customer responsibility and liability and don't want to take it on myself. I sometimes charge mileage but not as much as I should. I have not debarked customer logs. I do not charge for set up - I list a charge to move the mill but rarely charge it and should take it out as usually easier and more convenient for me to move the mill than log. We moved it by hand about 15' Saturday as fastest, easiest and safer than moving several big logs without proper equipment.
GeneWengert-WoodDoc...I give the folks an option...I will scan all the logs, for $25.00 per every 4 logs, and at my discretion as to signal received pull that or those from the pile. Or not scan and should the blade be damage beyond reasonable quality of cut, the client buys the blade.
Doc,
I do charge for that kind of extra work, a "Site and/or Log Prep Fee". If they are not ready to go when I get there and I have to drag logs to the loading area (or roll them), trim off limbs, buck to length, scrap off mud or gravel, set up a stacking area, etc.. Currently, $50 p/hr.
I don't mind checking out their stacking setup, checking for flatness, or showing them how to sticker. If I can get them started on the right path, their lumber will turn out better, and they'll be happier with the whole process.
Quote from: millwright on August 09, 2017, 08:42:19 PM
When sawing by the BF, do you charge say 25 cents for 1" thick then 50 cents for 2" etc
As mentioned by many folks many times over again,,sawing fees seemed to based on region and market value. To answer the initial question, not getting more involved in any more of your process, I sawed for varying rates from .15 to .50/bdft. All discussed with the customer before the work began. For me it basically averaged out to about what you are charging. The price was per bdft sawn, regardless of the thickness, size or weight. And as someone mentioned,, it most often times does mean more lumber for the customer than they were expecting from a log(s).
For those that cut grade lumber AND dimensonal lumber/board and batten. Do you typically have two different board foot prices? Im thinking with grade sawing there may be more turning and studying the log versus getting a cant and sawing straight through. Hourly rate structure would compensate for this I'm sure but wondered if anyone charged different board foot pricing for the different cutting methods?
Under 1'' thick changes over to square foot charge for my customers. I dont change the charge between 1'' and 2'' stuff.
PC
I charge by the hour for every thing I cut and a metal strike is $50. Has worked well for me.
When I get asked about a BF price I tell the customer that my hourly price is based on 300 BF an hour and is 35 cents and i will only use a BF price when production exceeds 300BF per hour because that BF production rate is 90% dependant on the logs, help and support equipment.
I dont need to chase work even though its be en a bit slower the last year. The revenue stream so far is about the same as last year on about 20% less jobs but more volume per job.
$50 for every 10' log (or less) & $25 per blade if I hit something.
I am a newbie and trying to build my customer base, so normally board feet scares people as it's not easy to understand. My customers want the tree cut down in their yard turned into something they can build with. Also tree guys push my business for me so it's a win win.
Most of the time I also mention I will take some slabs for my business as a tip, this usually works well for both sides.
You can also charge to seal the ends for them if you are looking for some extra $$$ when the pile is ready for loading. And of course the delivery charge is an easy $100 in the pocket if it's close drive.
cwimer973,
That is a novel approach to billing and very interesting. How is it working out for you? I see you list you have an LT10 so you must be restricted to a 24" diameter log. Since you specify 10' or shorter logs I assume you do not add extensions to your mill. If every log was 10 and 24" my international 1/4 scale estimates 255 bf/log and that would be a rate of around 19 cents/bf. If your customers are providing 18" X 8' logs your rate goes up considerably. Are you sawing mobile or at your home site? You mention cutting trees - are you doing that too or just sawing?
I had wondered about doing a show/demo where I would offer to saw a log for a fixed price if the customer would bring it to me. Have not done so yet but keep thinking of it so very interested in how this is working for you.
Thats the first time i have heard of billing like that as well, but I can cut 24 ft. I would end up having to have several different rates for longer stuff...and it would get complicated pretty quick. What that would do is help folks see the need to keep their small crocked logs at home. Banjo
Quote from: cwimer973 on August 30, 2017, 05:18:52 PM
$50 for every 10' log (or less) & $25 per blade if I hit something.
I am a newbie and trying to build my customer base, so normally board feet scares people as it's not easy to understand. My customers want the tree cut down in their yard turned into something they can build with. Also tree guys push my business for me so it's a win win.
Most of the time I also mention I will take some slabs for my business as a tip, this usually works well for both sides.
You can also charge to seal the ends for them if you are looking for some extra $$$ when the pile is ready for loading. And of course the delivery charge is an easy $100 in the pocket if it's close drive.
With pricing like that it doesn't seem like you want to build a customer base. Steve
Steve,
Why not?
Even at only 3 logs a hour that's $150 a hour, way over priced. Steve
Assuming he could load, turn and saw 3 - 24" X 10' logs an hour that should be something like 750+ bf based on International 1/4 rule and that would be $.20/bf if my math is right and way cheaper than I would saw. I honestly doubt the logs will be that big and that he could saw 3 per hour on his mill. On a small manual mill I expect 2 logs is probably more realistic.
If 18" X 10' logs approximately 140 bf or about 35 cents a bf.
If I were the customer I would not be bringing him 10" X 8' logs at that rate but at 18" X 10' up it looks like a bargain if he can produce good quality lumber from them especially if he is sawing at my location.
As he first mentioned at least the customer is crystal clear up front what it will cost him to get his logs sawed and that is a good thing. Hourly rates are a mystery to many people and how many of your customers are really clear up front what a bf is? I almost always have to explain what it is and that a 5'X 8' trailer stacked level with the side rails is about 500 bf.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong - just different than what most of us do and I think there may be a place for this kind of pricing.
Ahhhh... a wide variety of pricing strategies is one of the aspects of being an independent business, certainly no price fixing going on here. We all have to find a method that we, and our clients, are comfortable with. ;)
With an LT-10 I would be surprised if he could mill 2 big (24"x10') logs per hour (500 bf). One of the first sawyers I hired (25+ years ago) came to my home with his LT-10 and, with my help, we may have done 200 bf/hr. At $50 per log, that's still a pretty good deal. ???
Two comments prompted me:
"Most of the time I also mention I will take some slabs for my business as a tip, this usually works well for both sides." It's just me, but I would never take someone's wood as a tip, nor would I ever suggest a tip, that's entirely up to them. :o
"so normally board feet scares people as it's not easy to understand". I haven't run into anyone who was scared of "board feet", although I would agree that some don't understand. It takes less than a minute to explain it to them. If they don't understand something; fees, safety rules, help requirements, etc., we don't go any further. :P
There's a huge difference between a 24" log and a 16" log so pricing per log is a bad idea. I've sawn over 50 smaller logs in a day which would be $2500 or over $300 a hour. Steve
Yes, there is a big difference between a 16" and a 24" 10' log but at $50 a log I'd estimate the cost to the customer to be between about 20-45 cents a bf. That is a pretty fair price range. One is a bargain and the other is not what I'd consider gouging the customer.
As I mentioned earlier if I were the customer I would not be likely to be having a bunch of small, short logs sawed at $50 each but if I had plenty of 20-24 inch diameter logs and I could get them cut at my site for $50 each I'd be happy with the cost.
The advantage to the customer is before a single board gets cut he knows exactly what it will cost without having to wonder how many bf his logs will yield or how many hours it will cost and how much either will cost him.
I am not sure I am ready to change to this pricing structure but I think there may well be a place for it and appreciate the concept. I will say it is entirely fair to the customer because he knows exactly how much his sawing will cost and it is up to him to provide the best value logs he can to take advantage of this offer. And whether the sawyer saws 50 or 2 logs a day, the customer pays the same for the same work. It provides more incentive to the sawyer to saw more per day but no extra cost to the customer.