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Cutting Expensive Logs VS cheap ones

Started by Percy, June 08, 2015, 12:05:08 AM

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Percy

I have learned over the years that the reason those sweetheart logs are expensive is you can make money cutting them. Warren and I cut this load of clear Western Red Cedar lumber and beams in a week(22,000 bdft). There was lots of falldown lumber as well for local sales but this load was preemo, worth close to $70,000 Canadian.
My bookeeper/accountant says a 10% return on investment is what we should shoot for....the thinking is 10% of $70,000 is much more than 10% of $7000. I forget this sometimes as my frugal nature sends me looking for cheap logs.........

 
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

starmac

We don't have any cedar, mostly white spruce, but since it is actually worth more as firewood here, I don't see any reason to cut anything but the best logs on the mill.
I am just getting started, but if I get any that are crooked, too small or too big, I plan to put them in the firewood pile.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Ron Wenrich

Good looking load of lumber.  How many bf on that load, and how much falldown?

Depends on the market.  In hardwoods, you would be hard pressed to take a veneer log and cut it into lumber and make any money.  I remember cherry at $8/bf in veneer logs.  An upper grade board was going for about $2.50 at the time.  But, when you average in your lower grades, that value drops.

I always want to look at this way.  Profit = Lumber value - log costs - mfg costs.  Higher grade logs have a better yield in better quality lumber.  That will raise the value of the lumber.  But, log costs also go up.  If I'm cutting a low value product, there is no need to have high quality logs.  It's pretty important to know the yields of differing valued logs.  Many guys don't get too concerned with it, but they should.

Log grade can also effect the mfg costs.  Often a really nice log can be kicked down in value due to size.  Smaller sized logs are often more expensive to cut than larger ones.  There is actually a point where large logs become more expensive to cut.  One reason mills pay for straight logs is that they are cheaper to mfg into lumber and have better yield.  Knowing mfg costs is pretty important. 

Kicking crooked logs into firewood can seem like a good move, unless you're using a firewood processor.  Straight, low grade logs are the only way to keep your costs down.  We always ended up sending crooked logs for pulpwood.  They still put some into the mill, and they were mighty tough to make a profit, and even tougher on equipment. 

The trick into success is removing the logs from the product stream that won't match the market or profitability.  Lots of different ways to measure it.  You can go by time, by species, by log size, by log grade.  All are factors. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Magicman

I like just looking at that lumber whack.   :)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

cutterboy

Quote from: Percy on June 08, 2015, 12:05:08 AM
I There was lots of falldown lumber as well for local sales but this load was preemo, worth close to $70,000 Canadian.


 

What is falldown lumber?
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

beenthere

"falldown" I expect is lumber not making the grade, or scale set at some minimum.
Kind of like a go/no-go decision one has to always make.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

BradMarks

I'm with MagicMan, like to just look at it.  Canadian WRC has so much more brown wood (older and more character) than what we get here these days - unless it comes from Canada ;D

bkaimwood

Awesome...a thread I hopefully I can provide a somewhat valuable opinion from experience, also including posts from Gene and Magicman... Two great posts...as expected, well put by Gene, in summary, your clientele dictates what you may be sawing, and a host of other great stuff...Magicman nailed it too, I just love to stand there and gaze lovingly into ANY whack of logs. I am just getting started too, and can say that 90% of my customers aren't making 20 grande worth of kitchen cabinets with my lumber, and aren't looking to do so. I sell mostly to guys building their own barn, shed, garage, some custom cabinet makers, and a few slab guys....people looking to for decking, DIY's, you get the idea. I take care of them, they always come to me first, we are all loyal. Things are very slowly growing. But the point is, if I bought very high quality logs, sawed only premium stuff, I'd end up sitting on it and going under...that's here. Your area will dictate what you saw, to some degree...especially if you are just starting. I think my situation will change and evolve in the future, but you have to start somewhere. Reputation is everything. I read here in another post, someone said, just remember, firewood logs make firewood, and some boards...I'm OK with that, and it works. I have two stoves, and customers that want to buy those few boards....
bk

4x4American

what kind of mill did you saw that with?
Boy, back in my day..

Percy

Quote from: cutterboy on June 08, 2015, 04:56:41 PM
Quote from: Percy on June 08, 2015, 12:05:08 AM
I There was lots of falldown lumber as well for local sales but this load was preemo, worth close to $70,000 Canadian.


 

What is falldown lumber?
Sorry, everyone has their own lingo these days....What I call falldown is lower grade stuff from the same cut(whack o logs):D that isnt worthy of this particular load...Fencing etc....It was very nice "falldown" as the broker whjo buys this from us is way fussy....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Percy

Quote from: Magicman on June 08, 2015, 07:57:23 AM
I like just looking at that lumber whack.   :)
Me too but the trucker eventally drove away....huh!! ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Percy

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 08, 2015, 06:16:52 AM
Good looking load of lumber.  How many bf on that load, and how much falldown?

Depends on the market.  In hardwoods, you would be hard pressed to take a veneer log and cut it into lumber and make any money.  I remember cherry at $8/bf in veneer logs.  An upper grade board was going for about $2.50 at the time.  But, when you average in your lower grades, that value drops.

I always want to look at this way.  Profit = Lumber value - log costs - mfg costs.  Higher grade logs have a better yield in better quality lumber.  That will raise the value of the lumber.  But, log costs also go up.  If I'm cutting a low value product, there is no need to have high quality logs.  It's pretty important to know the yields of differing valued logs.  Many guys don't get too concerned with it, but they should.

Log grade can also effect the mfg costs.  Often a really nice log can be kicked down in value due to size.  Smaller sized logs are often more expensive to cut than larger ones.  There is actually a point where large logs become more expensive to cut.  One reason mills pay for straight logs is that they are cheaper to mfg into lumber and have better yield.  Knowing mfg costs is pretty important. 

Kicking crooked logs into firewood can seem like a good move, unless you're using a firewood processor.  Straight, low grade logs are the only way to keep your costs down.  We always ended up sending crooked logs for pulpwood.  They still put some into the mill, and they were mighty tough to make a profit, and even tougher on equipment. 

The trick into success is removing the logs from the product stream that won't match the market or profitability.  Lots of different ways to measure it.  You can go by time, by species, by log size, by log grade.  All are factors.
Ron, you have forgotten more than I'll ever know about this. Im learning that there isnt enough sweetheart logs to go around these days and in some cases a guy who lucks out on some might do better flipping them instead of cutting them...
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Percy

Quote from: bkaimwood on June 08, 2015, 07:37:54 PM
Awesome...a thread I hopefully I can provide a somewhat valuable opinion from experience, also including posts from Gene and Magicman... Two great posts...as expected, well put by Gene, in summary, your clientele dictates what you may be sawing, and a host of other great stuff...Magicman nailed it too, I just love to stand there and gaze lovingly into ANY whack of logs. I am just getting started too, and can say that 90% of my customers aren't making 20 grande worth of kitchen cabinets with my lumber, and aren't looking to do so. I sell mostly to guys building their own barn, shed, garage, some custom cabinet makers, and a few slab guys....people looking to for decking, DIY's, you get the idea. I take care of them, they always come to me first, we are all loyal. Things are very slowly growing. But the point is, if I bought very high quality logs, sawed only premium stuff, I'd end up sitting on it and going under...that's here. Your area will dictate what you saw, to some degree...especially if you are just starting. I think my situation will change and evolve in the future, but you have to start somewhere. Reputation is everything. I read here in another post, someone said, just remember, firewood logs make firewood, and some boards...I'm OK with that, and it works. I have two stoves, and customers that want to buy those few boards....
I hear you....the whole sawing game is like standing on a beachball....no matter how you move, there is gonna be a reaction. The key is to not fall on your face....or atleast fall in the sawdust smiling....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Percy

Quote from: 4x4American on June 08, 2015, 08:05:08 PM
what kind of mill did you saw that with?
I saw with an LT70..remote-2003
MY son saws with a Turbosaw Gadiator and his employee Fernado saws witha Peterson 10 inch WPF...All three mills contributed to this load
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

4x4American

We all know which mill put the most lumber on the truck  ;)




smiley_wavy
Boy, back in my day..

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: 4x4American on June 08, 2015, 11:13:17 PM
We all know which mill put the most lumber on the truck  ;)

I wish my mill would put it on the truck.  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Brucer

I can almost smell the Cedar. Wait! I can smell it.

Guess what I was sawing today ;D.

Mind you, the stuff in the interior is nowhere near as nice as what Percy sees on the coast :(.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Percy

Quote from: Brucer on June 08, 2015, 11:21:51 PM
I can almost smell the Cedar. Wait! I can smell it.

Guess what I was sawing today ;D.

Mind you, the stuff in the interior is nowhere near as nice as what Percy sees on the coast :(.
Speakin of smell, do you get bothered by it as in sneezing, coughing, shortness of breath, heart palpitations, cardiac arrest etc??? Just kidding :D ....... but I have developed an alergy to the stuff after cutting it for 18 years. When its raining, I can eat the sawdust and it dont bother me a bit.... but when its hot and dry, I have to wear a mask and stand up wind etc. or I suffer for a few hours in the evening.
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Magicman

Probably the "allergy" problem was caused by not wearing a mask for so many years.  I know that mine was but it was not sawdust.  It was farm, grass, and seed dust.   :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

BradMarks

I worked in a cedar lumber mill just out of high school, in a position they called the "hole", straightening lumber on the incline chain to the trim saws.  Worst job in the mill, lumber from the resaw, falling on top of that coming from the head rig. Always wore a mask, couldn't breathe without it, it was so dusty.  I was told back then that the cedar particulate in the air, the fibers, were elongated and clung to your passageways, more so than any other wood species, and definitely a health concern.  ANYBODY know more on this??

Brucer

I always try to saw Cedar with the wind to my back. Otherwise I wear a face mask. I don't seem to have any allergy issues with WRC but I will sometimes get a rash when I mix sweat and cedar dust. It only lasts a few hours after I quit sawing.

The worst is sawing with a dust mask on a hot day. I end up with a rash around the edges of the mask :(.

I have a contractor friend who cannot work with WRC any more. It leaves him short of breath and wheezing for days. His hands and forearms break out in terrible sores, even when he wears gloves and long sleeves.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

cutterboy

Quote from: Percy on June 08, 2015, 08:08:57 PM
Quote from: cutterboy on June 08, 2015, 04:56:41 PM
Quote from: Percy on June 08, 2015, 12:05:08 AM
I There was lots of falldown lumber as well for local sales but this load was preemo, worth close to $70,000 Canadian.


 

What is falldown lumber?
Sorry, everyone has their own lingo these days....What I call falldown is lower grade stuff from the same cut(whack o logs):D that isnt worthy of this particular load...Fencing etc....It was very nice "falldown" as the broker whjo buys this from us is way fussy....

Thanks Percy for the explanation.
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

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