carbide vs high speed steel tooling.

hackberry jake · September 16, 2015, 01:49:55 AM

The more I use my machines, the more I lean towards high speed steel. Don't get me wrong, carbide is an amazing material. Here are some comparisons.

Carbide doesn't get as sharp as hss but holds its edge much longer.
Carbide is harder to sharpen.
Carbide costs substantially more than hss.
Carbide is more brittle than hss (nail strikes, etc)

For my router, I have carbide and hss end mills (spiral straight bits) and both perform well, but a fresh hss bit leaves a lot less tear out and "fuzzies" than a fresh carbide cutter does.
I'd love segmented cutter heads for my planer and jointer, but mainly for the other benefits, not just because they are carbide. I can order carbide tipped jointer and planer knives for my current heads. If they made economic hss inserts for those heads, it would seem more appealing to me. I have a couple insert cutter heads for my shapers that take profiled hss knives and I love them. When they get dull, I just pop in another $14 set of profiled knives and keep going. Also there are definitely different grades of hss. I have not been impressed with the cheapest hss planer blades, but the next price range up is awesome. What are your thoughts?

Just Me · September 16, 2015, 08:12:15 AM

I lean toward carbide. I have recently switched to carbide on my SCM planer with a Tersa head as I had a large job with Makore that eats HSS for lunch. Did the job and they are still sharp on the first side. Went ahead and did my jointer at the same time, no regrets. The finish with the carbides in the planer is actually better than with M42. The jointer with brazed not that good but I do not consider the jointer a finished surface tool anyway.

I have a Euroblock head like you and use it often but avoid it on long runs as one set of cutters will not always do the whole job. I use it for solutions on small projects and when I need to make custom knives.

One thing to keep in mind is that the carbide on insert heads is a better, finer grained structure than on brazed heads. Brazed carbide by necessity needs to be of a certain coarseness for the braze to soak in and adhere,, where with bolt on inserts that is not an issue so a finer grained carbide can be used. I have been ponying up for inserts when I can afford it for the last few years and am very happy with the results. Amana has very nice cutters at a reasonable price, and I have been buying used high end cutters like Lietz and Gladu when I find deals.

A lot of my work is custom trim applications where there are a few hundred feet, so if I pony up for carbide I have that in my list of cutters ready for another job. With Hss I have a dull set of cutters on hand, and as I have no one local to sharpen I have to send them out. a pain in my tush.

I do have a lot of HSS in lock edge and corrugated back cutters that have collected over the years for small jobs so they do have their place in my shop, but they are not my preference.

Larry

gfadvm · September 16, 2015, 09:22:29 PM

All carbide is not created equal. The cheaper router bits don't compare in cut quality, longevity, or duration of sharpness. I discovered Whiteside router bits a few years ago and will never buy any other brand. They cost more initially but I really believe they are more economical in the long run. I mill a lot of Jatoba, hedge, and hickory and they are way better than HSS or cheaper carbide bits. Just my experience.

jueston · September 17, 2015, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: hackberry jake on September 16, 2015, 01:49:55 AM
For my router, I have carbide and hss end mills (spiral straight bits) and both perform well, but a fresh hss bit leaves a lot less tear out and "fuzzies" than a fresh carbide cutter does.
I'd love segmented cutter heads for my planer and jointer, but mainly for the other benefits, not just because they are carbide. I can order carbide tipped jointer and planer knives for my current heads. If they made economic hss inserts for those heads, it would seem more appealing to me. I have a couple insert cutter heads for my shapers that take profiled hss knives and I love them. When they get dull, I just pop in another $14 set of profiled knives and keep going. Also there are definitely different grades of hss. I have not been impressed with the cheapest hss planer blades, but the next price range up is awesome. What are your thoughts?

where do you get your carbine end mills? i got some from MLCS when i first got the CNC and didn't understand why i couldn't get a high quality cut, i was changing every setting, going slower, reducing the depth of cut, but nothing seemed to matter, then i ordered some name brand carbide bids from toolstoday.com which are $25-$35 each. everything was different. i could up my speed 2 or 3 times, and go deeper with each cut, the edge quality was higher, and the chips are this perfectly consistent light fluffy wood chip, not dust like i was getting with lower quality bits going and slower feeds.

i know from a material science stand point HSS can be sharper than cabide because of the crystal structure, but from a practical standpoint are HSS bits actually sharper? and for how long do they stay sharper.

i'm 100% carbide when it comes to router bits and when i get around to buying a big planer or jointer, they will be carbide insert cutters.

hackberry jake · September 18, 2015, 02:51:04 AM

I am guilty of buying the cheap solid carbide end mills from Mlcs. Most of the routing I do is done with the Mlcs 1/4" spiral two flute upcut endmill. $15.95 and free shipping is pretty cheap. I guess I need to buy a couple name brand solid carbide bits before I make all my assumptions. I've been pretty impressed with the harbors three pack of spiral hss bits. A 1/4", a 3/8", and a 1/2" bit for $15. And they seem to last really well. I even bought a 3/8" collect for my router so I could use all three bits.

jueston · September 18, 2015, 09:51:12 AM

the majority of my router bits only get used for light work, 10 or 12 feet of edge profiling is all i generally do at one time and for that MLCS is great. but if i was going to make hundreds of feet of anything i would go with another brand.

when i first got my CNC machine, i made my share of mistakes just like any new tool owner, and for that learning curve i got 5 or 6 of MCLS's HSS spiral end mills, they are good for learning and then toss them since they are under $5 each. but i felt like the 'new bit feeling' lasted about 10 minutes with them, the carbide i feel like it lasts a month of cutting (i average only a couple hours of cutting a day, and no cutting some days)

carbide is more brittle then HSS and when things go wrong(like a piece moves on the CNC table, or an unexpected knot with a normal router) carbide tends to snap in two where HSS tends to bend a little.

one brand i really like is Yonico, you can find them on amazon, they sell router bits and endmills. the carbide end mills are only $15 and i have been happy with them.

a little off topic to the carbide vs HSS but i also upgraded from a router in my CNC to a Chinese water cooled spindle, and not only is it quite enough to have a conversation next to while it runs, it also has less run out and vibration then a router and bits last much longer in a spindle then they did in a router.

jake, we both in st. Paul but different states, if you lived closer we could grab a beer and talk about CNC, my friends think im a geek for spending all my time and money on the machine

:D

hackberry jake · September 18, 2015, 02:35:27 PM

I'd be up for that!

hackberry jake · September 18, 2015, 02:48:52 PM

I've actually been really impressed with the Mlcs shaper cutters. One $90 set of tongue and groove cutters for flooring has lasted a...looong time. And they are still really sharp.

21incher · September 18, 2015, 06:31:09 PM

Back when I bought my first craftsman router all the bits I purchased were high speed steel . That was what was available at the time and I got many years out of those bits knowing if I kept them sharp they woud get the job done. The biggest issue was there were no ball bearings on the roundover bits and the steel pilots would burn the edges. A couple of years later carbide bits became available and all the steel bits went into a drawer to rust away. Not all of the carbide bits gave the same smooth cut, but they would cut for years with no maintenance, and I knew that all projects would need sanding anyway. Either bit will get the job done, but I do not like sharpening so I perfer carbide. I find that the Bosch, Whiteside, & Freud bits seem to give me the best results and seem to stay sharp longer. lately I have been buying the MLCS & Grizzly (S/Y) due to their low cost for small jobs and they get the job done but some of them seem to create more tearout for critical jobs.
I must say that the carbide inserts in my new jointer give a better cut then the old steel blades that I used to use and I no longer worry about jointing glueups and nicking the blades. Now that carbide is available in a affordable price range it is carbide for me.

49er · September 18, 2015, 06:37:17 PM

Quote from: gfadvm on September 16, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
All carbide is not created equal. The cheaper router bits don't compare in cut quality, longevity, or duration of sharpness. I discovered Whiteside router bits a few years ago and will never buy any other brand. They cost more initially but I really believe they are more economical in the long run. I mill a lot of Jatoba, hedge, and hickory and they are way better than HSS or cheaper carbide bits. Just my experience.

I got a Whiteside lockmiter bit and it worked great.

I think all my bits will be Whiteside.

Just Me · September 18, 2015, 08:01:41 PM

I'll second the real value of Whiteside. They come sharper, and stay that way longer.

If you do any pattern work you owe it to yourself to try their 1 1/4" top bearing pattern bit. No tearout, but it does require a big router. My go to for that is the Porter Cable 3 3/4 hp Speedmatic. Lots of weight!