Any thoughts about the coming heating season?

[D._Frederick]

With furnace/Diesel oil over $2.00 a gallon, my heating costs will double.  I bought a 372 so I can get my son to make me some fire wood so that I can build a fire in the stove in the basement. I hate to think at my age that I have poke wood in a stove again like I did 50 years ago.

Here in Oregon the price of natural gas, propane, and electricity are all increasing in cost.  Any thougth on keeping warm this winter without getting a bank loan?

I was thinking about getting a corn burning furnace, they are in the $6-8 K range.  Now I am reading that the corn will be going to make alcohol so I doubt that there will be any a $110/ton corn.

[SAW MILLER]

                 I just bought  a load of logs for firewood,cherry and hard maple for 275.00 .The logger said it was around 10 ton.It looks like I will end up with around three cords of firewood and 300 bf of cherry 4/4  x 6" boards.I aint so sure I gotta bargin!! But if I can sell the lumber for a dollar a foot I'll come out alright.I bet it's gonna get worse on these fuel prices this winter.

[Paschale]

I'm worried about it too.  About three years ago, a guy from a competing power company came to my door and offered to lock in my rates for three years at $.45 per CCF, expiring this October.  I thought it might've been a bad move, but man, was that a gamble that really paid off!  The going rate last winter was $.72!  I got a phone call from a similar company this year, offering to lock in my rates at $.82 for three years.  I'm not willing to take that gamble, but it does tell me what to expect.  My heating bills will certainly double this winter, which means in my coldest months, I'll be paying over $300 to heat my house, and that's keeping it pretty cool too!  I have a furnace that's probably from 1955 or so, so I'm thinking of upgrading to a high efficiency furnace.  I figure during the life of the furnace, and at these rates, it'll pay for itself.

I'm wondering about those geothermal units though--anyone know anything about those, or have any suggestions on good furnace brands, or brands to avoid?

[gary]

I have an old furnace also. So far 2 people I know have offered to trade me thier 1 year old high effeincy furnaces for mine. They both said that they didn't get the heat out of thier new ones like they did out of the old style furnace.

[Buzz-sawyer]

I priced and installed newer units ion homes with old 1960 furnaces.payed for itself in 2-3 years...then pure profit!

[submarinesailor]

Paschale

If you can afford the up front cost – about 1/3 more.  Geothermal is the way to go.  Basically, they are heat pumps that move heat in and out of the earth.  They are VERY, VERY efficient.  If the design (length and depth of the loops) and the physical installation are done correctly, you can cut your heating and cooling bill by about 50-60%.  Before I came to work for the government, I was the project manager on several different installations – small to medium to size.

Tomorrow at work, I'll to find and forward some information to you.

Bruce/subsailor

[Part_Timer]

Paschale

    We have an open loop Geo.  That means we pump from our well circulate it in the pump then it goes to a drainage ditch behind the house.  We are on a budget with AEP and our electric bill is $139 every month.  THat is our only utility except the phone.  NO PROPANE.  I figure that is about as cheap a living as I could want.  THe only problem is that if it gets in the teens and below it is hard for it to keep up and keep the electric heat strip from kicking in.  We used to burn some Kero. when it was real cold.  Now we have a wood stove and that has eliminated the Kero cost and droped my winter electric bill about 35 dollars a month.  That savings pays for th kiln and wood shop so it washes out pretty good. Our geo is 10 years old but still runs good just keep the air filters changed regular and no problems.

[Dana]

We use wood as a back up heat to propane.  This year we are seriously looking at a Central Boiler Outdoor furnace.  One of the advantages of an outdoor I am told is that you don't have to worry about creosolt from pine or green slab wood. Central told me if I purchase 3 stoves at one  time I can qualify to be a dealer! If anyone else is interested in one let me know. Maybe I could get that order of three togather and save us all a good bit of money.

[ronwood]

Dana,

I bought a Central Boiler unit this past March. I almost have it installed. Line running to my workshop and the house. Will be burning all my wood scraps/slabs this winter. Propane is around $1.49 a gallon. 

Ron

[redpowerd]

from my scatterd research this summer it looks like ill be getting a central boiler. plan on putting in 4 zones on the main floor and going from there. i have two other stoves in the house for backup, but i really dont think ill need them.

im anxious to see how the price of fuel wood will relate to oil prices.

[beetle]

I am 100% electric here with heat pump and not one complaint. Two story home with finished basement with a total of 2500 sf living space and heated attached garage, plus a 1000 sf outbuilding that is pulling juice on a regular basis. total heating/cooling/cooking/hot water/lights/welders/compressors cost is $170.00 per month times 12.

And when I built this home 16 years ago, they (the power company) gave me a $1000.00 rebate for the heat pump, a free 80 gal hot water tank, and paid the $8000.00 bill to bury the electric line 1500 feet back to my pad. In all, saved $10,000.00 off the cost of construction, kind of hard for a youngster just starting out to pass up.

[redpowerd]

holey moley how did you get them to foot the bill for the buried line? if they would have buried my line for me id be electric too.

[beetle]

Natural Gas was and is available at my road, they wanted my business. If I pulled a gas line back, they ( the power co ) said I had to pay for the cost of the buried electric line, however they said, if I went all electric they would foot the bill, give me a hot water tank, and give me a check for a grand. Kind of hard to pass up that deal during construction when budgets are tight.

In addition...they would lock in .03 cents per kilo watt for as long as I owned the home, only increase the rate the same percentage as others when the rate went up, at that time the normal kilo watt rate was .13 cents.

I beleive I have heard they no longer offer this program?

[DonE911]

I've been considering putting in an outdoor furnace this year.  It just seems to be a good choice with all these slabs laying around and LP is getting expensive.   

For those that have done it....  how long do you figure it takes for the furnace to pay for itself?

[Timberwerks]

Can someone post a link to a site about outdoor furnaces? I'd like to see what they look like and how they work etc.. Do they tie into your forced air duct work? Or do the heat water for hydronic heat?

Dale

[ronwood]

DonE911,

In my case I figure  that I will save close to a $1000.00 a year in propane running the house at 68Deg F. I needed to heat my woodshop so I made a choice to go with a wood furnace. I have around $10K into the project . Stove is about 90 ft. from the house and 190 ft. to the shed. Included also in the price is 2 pumps, 2 heat exchangers, and 1 heat exchangers for the hot water heater. Doing the insulation myself. I figure that the only propane that I will be using is for cooking.

Central boiler website is www.centralboiler.com. A search on google will help to find others


Ron

[Bro. Noble]

We built a new house last year and put in an air-to-air heat pump that we use till it gets below freezing.  At that time we build a fire in the Taylor outdoor furnace.  It has a heat exchanger in the ductwork for the electric heat and airconditioning.  The ductwork has variable speed fans and dampers that are controlled by separate thermostats on each of three levels.  There is a switch that turns on the electric heat if the wood fire gets too low.  We have very even and consistant heat (and ac) all year with an unlimited amount of free hot water (when there is a wood fire) for a little less than $100/mo in the winter and a little more in the summer.

We use waste wood from the sawmill which is about half a quarter away.  We bring it over on the tractor forks and cut it to length right by the furnace   Only thing I would improve on the system would be to get my wife to run the chainsaw and drive the tractor :D :D

[DonE911]

I've been checking around the boiler sized to my needs will cost between 4500 and 6000 depending on the manufacture...  I'm only heating 1800 sqft of house, so I'll have the extra capacity to run a small kiln although I hadn't planned on one where the furnace would have to go. It may be used only during the non heating season, but I might as well do that and have a reason to fire it up other than heating the hot water in the house.

I spent about 800 on propane last year and I missed 2 months of the heating season.  I'm figuring 1600 a year at last years prices ( more this year ) so I should have 4-5 years to payback on the boiler.  I'm not sure on the add on extra cost for materials related to the install and heat exchangers ect, but I assume they will run another 1000 or more.

[OneWithWood]

I have a Central Boiler unit and I am pleased with the performance given its task of heating my wife's two greenhouses.  If you are contemplating installing an outdoor furnace be sure you have a handle on the amount of wood you will consume.  It is far higher than a woodstove in the house.

[DonE911]

Ok, on the wood use thing.

How much wood are we taking here?  I have 3 piles of slabs that are easily 3 feet high maybe 3 feet wide and 10 feet long.   I've burned more than that this summer just to get rid of it. I'm running a chainsaw mill... not alot of cutting really.   I've been keeping all the limbs and have piles of rounds ( not split yet ) everywhere, so I thought I''d be fine on a wood supply without going accross the street to the national forest to collect firewood ( with permit ).

Haveing been a lifelong Floridian until last winter, maybe I don't have a goot concept of the amount of wood I need to do this thing.  I know wood isn't exactly cheap when your buying pre split firewood.  There is an add in the local paper every week "$65 longbed truck mixed hardwood" That was seasoned,split, delivered and dumped.   

[Paschale]

For you guys who know about heat pumps/geothermal exchangers, or whatever they're called, several of you have mentioned that it's a problem when it gets below freezing.  Living in Michigan, I wonder if they're actually suited for our climate as the primary source of heat.  It wouldn't make sense to spend all of that money, only to have to rely either on electric heat or gas during the coldest days/months of the winter, would it?  Also, how extensive/lengthy are the pipes run underground?  Could this be done in a residential neighborhood?   ???

[OneWithWood]

Don,
Every installation is different and our climates are just enough different that I would not feel comfortable guessing what your wood usage might be.  Ask around your area to find others with outdoor furnaces.  Ask them how much wood they burn and increase it by a chord.   That should give you a good estimate.

[beenthere]

Don
"$65 longbed truck mixed hardwood"

With that description, one could only guess as to what portion of a cord it might be.    Maybe a longbed S-10?  Clearly can see why some states have seen the need to adopt a 'legal' description of a unit to sell firewood, based on the 'cord'.

Paschale
I've often wondered the same thing, although for the bulk of the year, which wouldn't need a lot of heat, seems like the heat pump would be good. I think of the geothermal as being a system to pump water from the ground, which means a well.

I am wondering with the revived interest in burning wood for heat, if the insurance companies and local code writers will launch a campaign to add more restrictions. Seems always to be those who want to put up big hurdles in the way of doing something 'less expensive' and 'home brewed'.  We are seeing communities in Western WI add ordanances banning the outdoor wood burners, apparently due to the sight of smoke when they burn (a lot of people burn green wood in large chunks and the wet wood smokes a lot).

[D._Frederick]

It is my understanding that the geothermo require about 600-800 ft of pipe buryed below the frost line. If your house is located on a small lot, they drill holes and install the pipes vertically. It a good system, but the up front cost are on the high side. The main problem for me is that your tied to the electric company. Are electric company, PGE is owned by ENRON and we are paying the highest rate in the NW.

[Furby]

Paschale,
There are some geo users in our area, I had a couple articals about them, but will have to find them.
I would guess that your location would not be as favorable for it, as say someone farther out.