Ive tried and tried for years to learn how to sharpen a saw chain. Ive bought guides and holders and even a electric sharpener. None have worked. The chains never work right. Even when i take chains to have them sharpened they never cut that great. There was a older guy who use to hand sharpen and they cut great after he was done with them. He is no longer around. My chains most of the time never need much just a file ran across them. I just cant seem to get the angles right.
Just takes time I guess, and it varies per person. Cutting a mess of filthy wood got me lots of practice filing, and I think I do a pretty good job, especially when I try. I don't always try, especially when the wood's dirty. No point in spending a lot of time when you'll be doing it again shortly. That Carlton manual Old Greenhorn linked is pretty good with regards to filing, and what you should look for. I'd study that, and keep practicing.
http://carltonproducts.com/pdfs/CarltonSafetyMaintManual_EN.pdf
Thing I find is to have a good close look at a NEW chain, and see how the angles are set up. How the top and side plate are angled, and the cutting point. Then, try and make the cutters look like that again.
Common mistakes are running the chain too long, so the cutting edge gets badly rounded over. Then it takes a lot of filing to get back to the razor edge again. Sharpen as soon as you notice the cuts slowing up, and you only have to remove minimal material. The outside of the cutting edges needs to be perfectly clean, if there is any round-over or chipping in that outer chrome layer, keep filing until there isn't. If the outside edge isn't perfect, the cutting edge isn't the hard chrome layer, it's in the softer steel below. This doesn't cut as well, and what edge you do get on it dulls much faster.
With a bit of practice I can get a chain pretty much cutting "like new". An actual expert can get it cutting better than that...
My Father could sharpen anything and make it cut good. I wished that would of been passed down to me. ::) I watched him file many chains. Finally I took a log and said I will get this. Took me a while. And a whole chain. ;D :o ::) I could get it to cut,but not straight. Finally I figured it out. The solution I am about to post will not make sense,but I have been doing it that way for more than 30 years. ;D I usually take at least one more swipe when the saw head is on the right. Somehow I can't get it right without doing that. And there is times when I get done,it starts to go off to the side. I stop and sharpen that side again and all is good. Must be doing something right,I can hang onto the rear handle and it will draw itself into the wood.
And Ianab is right,copy what is there. Keep the angles the same. Should be witness marks on the chain.
Are you putting the bar in a vise? Set yourself up to make it comfortable for you.
I can put the chainsaw on the ground and sharpen it just as well in a vise. Or I think I can. But I always use to be the bar in a vise.
Have you been filing the depth rakers as well as the cutters? Some people forget that or were never told. Supposedly, Stihl makes a filing guide that holds a flat file next to a round file so that you can cut both at the same time, consistently. Wranglerstar put up a video on these, for what it's worth. I don't know if this would work for all chain pitches, though....
Best Chainsaw Sharpener Ever - FINALLY!!! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzjmpNTVH6U)
First rule is good eyesight or you're lost without it.
That's the new and improved 2in1 Stihl hand sharpener from German PFERD. We have the older models that have to be turned and set for each chain side.
It is simple and reliable. In one pass following the chain "witness line" angle seen on top of each new chain, it does the tooth AND raker with each pass.
It comes with the correct round file and flat file for every kind of chain.
Easy, accurate and better than most electric grinders since you cannot 'burn' the chain by hand like with electric grinders used badly.
They are so easy to sharpen in the field with a stump vise when you hit barbed wire, dirt, or a round. :-[
When I can afford that new and improved Pferd model ( and give up the fortnightly Laphroaig 1/5 :o) I will get them. Not yet.
Sounds like i need to look into this stihl tool. I never have filed the rakers and id say thay may have been the problem.
Yeah, if you don't file the rakers then the "throat" through which the material passes gets smaller every time you file those cutters. Once they are dead even with or taller than the cutters you are basically skipping along the cut instead of biting. It's kinda like "jointing" for hand saw teeth, but not really, because you don't want the rakers and cutters dead even on a chainsaw.
Quote from: Somewhat Handy on January 30, 2019, 02:35:54 PMHave you been filing the depth rakers as well as the cutters? Some people forget that or were never told. Supposedly, Stihl makes a filing guide that holds a flat file next to a round file so that you can cut both at the same time, consistently. Wranglerstar put up a video on these, for what it's worth. I don't know if this would work for all chain pitches, though....
They make several different sharpeners for the different chains they sell. Same as having different size files for different chains. I don't use one, but a friend got one with her little MS180, and it seems to "work as advertised".
This is what I use to check raker height...
Filing Aids for sharpening a saw chain | STIHL | STIHL (https://www.stihl.com/saegeketten-schaerfen-feilhilfen.aspx)
That's about all I use it for, but the bar groove cleaner works too. I keep them a hair lower than the gauge says; between the top and bottom of the plate.
Im liking the looks of the stihl 2 in 1 tool
Kwill I had the hardest time learning too. You are not alone. I don't use round files anymore, but when I did, or if I go back, THIS is the guide I would use: Husky Guide (https://www.baileysonline.com/husqvarna-combination-swedish-roller-guide-for-3-8-pitch-chainsaw-chain-hva-505-24-35-01.html) They come in different sizes based on pitch. They set the file at the proper angle and height (the latter being very tricky for most folks. It also has the raker guide right on it. It's a small thing. You need to understand the angles, and everyone has a different way of visualizing this. Take a file a lay it in the tooth of a new chain nestling it in tight against the area you would file. Note these 3 things: 1) the angle of the file to the axis of the chain (bar), some call this the face angle and it is usually 30-35 degrees depending on the tooth form, 2) the angle of the file (in the vertical plane) to the face of the bar which is usually 75 to 90 degrees depending on the tooth form, and 3) the height of the top of the file (high spot) above the top plate of the tooth, usually 1/5 or 20% of the file diameter. If you match these, you can't go wrong. All of this is covered in that Carlton booklet which also has a great section on troubleshooting chains and cutting or driving problems.
Cfarm mentioned having trouble getting both sides the same, he offered good suggestions about being comfortable. I have the side to side issue also. For me, I put the saw on a table, stump, or tailgate and lay my chest on the trigger handle looking down the bar of the saw. I file the right teeth, right handed, from the right side, and the left teeth, left handed from the left side. I hit the rakers last, as everyone should, from the side with a simple raker gauge. ( I use .03, some use .025".) It took me a while to learn this way well, my left hand not being so well educated as my right, but I got there.
I use a square file, I find it easier to get a sharp tooth, I like the full chisel tooth better, and my teeth are more more consistent. I would not recommend trying this without a guru to get you through it. If you think round filing is a challenge, square could send you screaming into the night if you don't have a coach.
Be patient, take you time, use good lighting and maybe a magnifying glass until you figure out how it should look. I did this for a while to check my work. You will get it.
Rare that something simple and cheap does exactly what it is supposed to do. Like my pulphook, the PFERD sharpener is perfect and near brainless ( for me at least :( ).
Get the correct size for pitch.
I'm not ashamed to say I still have trouble at times. And I've cut since I was 13yrs old. Mostly its when I get in a hurry. Don't do what I do, take your time starting out. Speed will come on its own. I use the File-O-Plate made by Husqvarna. Works good for me. Has a swing-out raker gauge. Probably the best advice on here is after you do get it sharp, don't put off touching it up when it needs it. I've been known to re-file several times a day when I'm cutting. Felling especially, as you pick-up all kinds of abrasives on butt cuts. Trust us when we tell you, its a whole lot easier to keep your chain in good sharp condition when its not allowed to get very dull. Only takes just a swipe or 2 per cutter and your done. Learn to do this in the field of course. I use a stump vise or tailgate. Only takes a few minutes, and pays big time in the long run. :)
Simple things in life bring me pleasure.
I like the fact that I can sharpen a saw chain with a round file.
I use the file holder pictured and clamp my saw bar in a 6" vice.
I sharpen each tooth with 2 strokes of the file unless they are damaged.
(In eastern WV I tend to hit a rock now and then.) always filing away from the engine.
About every 3rd to 4th sharpening I'll hit the rakers with a flat file. I don't use a guide for this, just eyeball it.
My chains are sharp and cut straight so I must be doing it right.
... or pretty close to right.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10233/Chainsaw_file_holder.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1548944019)
Its easy to correct mistakes when watching a person do it but can only guess when answering a question. Most common mistake is the work not held ridged. Several have touched on it but I want to make it clear that it is near impossible to sharpen a chain correctly unless it is held ridged, either off the saw or on the saw. In the shop I sharpen on the saw in the big bench vise. In the field a stump vise is a nice thing to have in the tool box. Lacking that make a bore cut in the stump and stick the saw in it. Fix that situation first. Next is your files, a surprisingly large amount of people think they last forever, dull file equals bad work. Buy a few new ones and always remember you push it and lift it out to return. Do not drag it back and forth like your running a hand saw,or you ruin the file in a hurry. There are numerous crutches to assist hand filing and when I use one I have yet to see or use one that beat the simple flat plate type as sold in many places including the box stores. I use the ones Stihl sells as they still have the thumb screw to hold the file tight. When in the shop and everything is held perfectly I just use a bare baked file. Learning how to use that guide is as easy as going to Oregons web site and watching the video. Adjusting the depth gauges is important only after you have sharpened the chains a few times about 1/3 of the way gone is when I reset them. If you are not getting results on the first filing of a new chain depth gauges are NOT your issue.
As for saw shops not getting the chains right,, common problem and why I learned how to hand file myself.
Very good point, If your file is dull throw it away!
I have a stump vice, I like it.
Always hand file the right hand cutters first because if your file slips out of the right hand cutter's gullet your index finger knuckle will get sliced to the bone on a freshly sharpened left hand cutter. And the thickest leather gloves won't save your knuckle.
Here's how I like to file my chain, comfortable, good view of the cutting edges, free hand supports the cutters from wobbling and firm grip on the saw. Got my reading glasses on too ;D
Works the same sitting on a log or stump.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11960.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141126)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11959.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141074)
Quote from: HolmenTree on January 31, 2019, 12:27:32 PM
Always hand file the right hand cutters first because if your file slips out of the right hand cutter's gullet your index finger knuckle will get sliced to the bone on a freshly sharpened left hand cutter. And the thickest leather gloves won't save your knuckle.
Here's how I like to file my chain, comfortable, good view of the cutting edges, free hand suppirts the chain from wobbling and firm grip on the saw. Got my reading glasses on too ;D
Works the same sitting on a log or stump.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11960.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141126)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11959.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141074)
That's pretty much how I do mine. Either in my lap, or on a tailgate. Chaps keep the saw gunk off your pants :^D
I've sliced my hands open several times over the years sharpening various things. Everytime I promise to get some cut-proof mesh gloves. smiley_idea I never do.... smiley_dozy_bored
Quote from: Weekend_Sawyer on January 31, 2019, 09:15:20 AM
Simple things in life bring me pleasure.
I like the fact that I can sharpen a saw chain with a round file.
I use the file holder pictured and clamp my saw bar in a 6" vice.
I sharpen each tooth with 2 strokes of the file unless they are damaged.
(In eastern WV I tend to hit a rock now and then.) always filing away from the engine.
About every 3rd to 4th sharpening I'll hit the rakers with a flat file. I don't use a guide for this, just eyeball it.
My chains are sharp and cut straight so I must be doing it right.
... or pretty close to right.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10233/Chainsaw_file_holder.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1548944019)
Whats your address i will send you all my chains to sharpen :D
If you don't mind spending a few bucks, this is one of the better chainsaw sharpening videos I've seen: The Art & Science of Chainsaw Sharpening (https://www.vidsync.com/chainsaw)
I've met the author. He teaches the Game of Logging classes in my area. Really knowledgeable guy. The technique is the same as what they teach in the GOL II class.
I learned it first hand from him, but I bought a copy anyway to lend out to friends.
Tighten the chain first, if it needs it.
Push straight back into the cutter-not down, or up.
If right handed, hit right side cutters first to better protect fingers from a slip of the file off the cutter.
To learn how hard to push the file, start with a new file, and find something to hold a white sheet of paper up near the bar, but low enough to be out of the way. Watch the filings accumulate on the white paper. You will see that a light pass will still cut metal.
Start with the little smooth end of the file on the tooth, and use the whole length of the file.
Until you get a feel for the angle, take a strip of plywood, or board, and mark the angle a bunch of times with a Magic Marker, on both sides of the strip of wood, in opposite directions on the different sides. Lay it down behind the bar, so it will be in the background of your line of sight. You will easily see if the file is not at the right angle. Learn to push in straight strokes.
One or two strokes on every tooth, at every fillup, or two, is less work than letting it get dull to the point that each tooth takes seven strokes. Count strokes, and try to use the same pressure on every tooth to maintain them all at the same height.
I find it fastest, and easiest if I'm standing at the truck tailgate, but find some position that's comfortable to you where you don't have to bend over.
Find a handle that fits your hand. I like the wooden Oregon handles so much that I also use them for sharpening handsaws. Sharpening handsaws is a lot more complicated than sharpening a chain, but a chainsaw chain is the best place to start.
Master this on a new chain, and after a few sharpening, follow previous advice given in this thread about the rakers. I use the special little smooth file with no teeth on the edges for the rakers. The little gauge is worth having to start with. Later, you can judge by putting any straightedge handy across the top of a couple of cutters on the straightest part of the bar, and eyeball the raker clearance to judge how much needs to be taken off.
Take care of your files. If they just get thrown in the toolbox, or on the dashboard of the truck, you might as well just toss it over in the woods. No one is good enough to make a chain sharp with a dull file.
Well I broke down and bought one. We will see how it works 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42883/20190205_110517.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549386777)
Different stuff works for different folks. Let us know how you make out with it. Me, I always steer away from the gimmicks and gizmos that are trying to replace skill. That's just me. I have a friend at work that uses one of those do-dads and loves it, so go figger.
No reflection on the current commenters, since I've never met the vast majority of you face to face, but as I've stated in other threads here...
I've met many dozens of people who think they do a great job of sharpening a chain freehand - with just a round file and nothing else (well, almost nothing else: they do use a flat file when it's time to touch up the depth gauges). For most of them, I'll admit that it does cut better than before they sharpened it. It doesn't cut as well as they seem to think it does, and I certainly wouldn't term it a consistently great job.
I've met just three people who actually can do a great job freehand (i.e. as good as or better than the factory edge). Sadly, I am not one of those three... Nor do I have any intention or need to become one. I can beat "out of the box" cutting performance using either the Oregon guide that clips on to the file, or the "Swedish roller guide" sold by Husqvarna.
Can I touch one up freehand in a pinch? Sure. But since if I've got my file with me, I also have the guide with me, so why bother? I can read a newspaper without my reading glasses on, but if I've got them with me, you can bet I'll use them. (Speaking of reading glasses: I can sharpen a chain using a guide even if I don't have my glasses with me. Doing it freehand without my glasses would be a lot tougher.)
Good luck with your new tool, let us know how it works out. My brother has a power sharpener mounted on a dedicated work station which he likes. He's going to need it after today, I hit metal in an old dead elm we were bucking up with his Stihl 441. Thought it was fencing, turned out to be a broadhead embedded quite deep. Couldn't believe the damage to a fairly new chain...ugh!
Scott B.
I gave it a whirl on a newer chain that had got dull and hadn't been sharpened. It worked good and the saw cut nice and straight. Better than I ever sharpened one with the other dope holders and stuff. I'd say it was 40 well spent
There are few anythings that do exactly what they say and do it well. One is a pulphook. Or snow tires. Maybe long underwear. Another is the Pferd ( also under Stihl ) 2 in 1 sharpener.
As said, it even does those "rock" chains when you hit barbed wire, a round, or dirt in a tree. Just takes many easy, efficient passes to get the chain sharpened. No noisy electric grinder to burn the chain...and, you can sing as you sharpen and count passes. :-[
I have 3 of them for my sized chains/bars. The new and improved version as shown above eliminates shifting the round and flat files for each chain side.
Maybe I'll get one when the files in the original versions wear out...or I eliminate my daily Laphroaig 2 fingers.
This is really "better than sliced bread". 8)
Quote from: Kwill on February 05, 2019, 03:12:12 PM
I gave it a whirl on a newer chain that had got dull and hadn't been sharpened. It worked good and the saw cut nice and straight. Better than I ever sharpened one with the other dope holders and stuff. I'd say it was 40 well spent
Well, there you go then! You found what works for you. Just give it some practice and things will continue to improve.
@John Mc (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6836) I am one of those 'freehand guys' you were probably referring to, and yes, it works just great for me. I have never seen or heard of an kind of guide or gadget for those of us decrepit old dogs that square file. (save one of those $1,500 (used) grinders.) The file fits the tooth form and the corner MUST come out in the right place or you have a lousy cut. I also find it much easier than round filing once I have the square profile created the first time. Changing a chain from round to square can take me the better part of an hour doing it carefully. If I were to round file, I would be using a Swedish roller guide, they work well. If anybody has something to help square file folks like me I'd love to hear about it.
@Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) - The freehand guys to which I was referring are all more or less local, and people who I've had the chance to see their filing in action - either using their saw myself, or seeing what happens when they use it. (You can't really tell how good a guy is over the internet.)
They range from Joe Homeowner to pro loggers. Two of the ones who really could do a good job were pros. One was a small landowner. He did not have a lot of experience using a chainsaw - sometimes his felling technique was a bit scary. He sure could sharpen a chain, though. I was a bit surprised by this until he told me what he did for a living: he was a machinist , and into woodworking as a hobby - I guess working with hand tools came naturally to him with that experience.
Quote from: lxskllr on January 31, 2019, 12:34:38 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on January 31, 2019, 12:27:32 PM
Always hand file the right hand cutters first because if your file slips out of the right hand cutter's gullet your index finger knuckle will get sliced to the bone on a freshly sharpened left hand cutter. And the thickest leather gloves won't save your knuckle.
Here's how I like to file my chain, comfortable, good view of the cutting edges, free hand suppirts the chain from wobbling and firm grip on the saw. Got my reading glasses on too ;D
Works the same sitting on a log or stump.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11960.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141126)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11959.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141074)
That's pretty much how I do mine. Either in my lap, or on a tailgate. Chaps keep the saw gunk off your pants :^D
I only wear chaps on the hottest days in my tree service.
Those are ballistic nylon padded safety pants I'm wearing there.
Quote from: HolmenTree on February 05, 2019, 05:45:48 PM
I only wear chaps on the hottest days in my tree service.
Those are ballistic nylon padded safety pants I'm wearing there.
I have the luxury of cutting when I want, and that's pretty much always <70F. All the gear makes me hot, especially the hard hat. I wear that mainly for the face shield and muffs. So far, 25F seems to be the sweet spot, but I haven't gone colder yet. At 25°, I'm doing enough work to stay warm, and just on the verge of sweating, but not quite there. It was 65° today, and I consider that too hot for any real tree work. There's an ash at work I'd like to fall, but I was too busy doing what I'm supposed to do, and my spotter wasn't available. A single tree at 65° would be ok.
Never worn the pants, but I don't think I'd like them. It's nice being able to easily take the chaps off for lunch, and cool down a bit. I'm not doing it professionally either though. I could see how an arborist would prefer pants. Probably more freedom of movement, and less stuff to snag.
Quote from: John Mc on February 05, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
@Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) - The freehand guys to which I was referring are all more or less local, and people who I've had the chance to see their filing in action - either using their saw myself, or seeing what happens when they use it. (You can't really tell how good a guy is over the internet.)
They range from Joe Homeowner to pro loggers. Two of the ones who really could do a good job were pros. One was a small landowner. He did not have a lot of experience using a chainsaw - sometimes his felling technique was a bit scary. He sure could sharpen a chain, though. I was a bit surprised by this until he told me what he did for a living: he was a machinist , and into woodworking as a hobby - I guess working with hand tools came naturally to him with that experience.
Really? I thought everyone was perfect on the internet, especially those dudes over on another social media site that know EVERYTHING!
Most of the guys I see, like you have seen, (My GOSH, they are EVERYWHERE!) just never had somebody who really knows, to teach them and coach them. The nice thing about ignorance is that it can be cured fairly easily.
You won't be surprised to learn that I have been a machinist for about 45 years now (although these days they call me an Engineer) and in part of my training we were given a chunk of steel as a test and we had to make a 3/4" cube that was square and flat on all sides and measured to size within .005". We were allowed two cutting tools, a hacksaw and a file. You get pretty frustrated doing that, but once you figured out the Zen part of it, you got pretty good. I tend to use a file more like a painter would use a brush. Every stroke means something. When I had my own shop, I would occasionally make some free form parts (no square edges, usually make to a traced template) on my die-filer, which is nothing more than a powered filing machine (works like a jig-saw and cuts on the downward stroke). Man I miss that machine. I did a quick prototype for a customer out of a brass scrap one time to make sure I knew what he wanted, took me 20 minutes, and showed it to him. He bought the sample, just said "how much?" I explained it was junk to see if I understood the concept, but if he wanted it he could have it or I could make a nice one. He just said "how much?" I said "pay me whatever you think it's worth" so he gave me $200. for it. Easiest buck I ever made.
I am glad you found something that works for you.
saw worked good afterwards as far as cutting.Its running a bit rough. Im hoping its just this tank of gas.
The biggest mistake my brothers all make ( ::) ) is to only sharpen from one side of the saw, either freehand or with a file guide. If you do that, especially with a worn bar, one side will be at a much different angle than the other and it will cut crooked. That, in turn, wears the bar groove so it gets worse every time. Always file in the up/forward direction. Also make sure you're using the correct file size.
Quote from: Kwill on February 05, 2019, 03:12:12 PM
I gave it a whirl on a newer chain that had got dull and hadn't been sharpened. It worked good and the saw cut nice and straight. Better than I ever sharpened one with the other dope holders and stuff. I'd say it was 40 well spent
I bought one hearing that they worked well and I found it is certainly easier, but not especially any faster than a regular Stihl Files and guide setup.
I always found filing sort of therapeutic :) and a great way to unwind with a 'cold one' nearby after a day of hacking away at a bunch of wood..
I haven't hit much in the way of metal things thankfully though, and except for grounding a tooth here or there, drastic efforts at sharpening haven't been too much of a necessity or urgently needed in the woods though - so with a cold beside me back at camp, it's always been a good way to end up my day - cleaning up and readjusting everything and getting prepared for the next day's mayhem!
The 2 in 1 deal, although expensive, I find makes it visually easier to maintain the correct tooth angle and keep a level cross motion, and all in all makes for a good job leaving my chains just as sharp if not more so than 'as new' condition from what I can tell by the action or cuttings left behind.
I'm terrible at sharpening!!! Yes the first step in resolving a problem is admitting there is a problem. The Stilh 2 and 1 was what showed me how bad my sharpening really is....I have a grinder that I use on occasion for bad damage or when I over file and my saw doesnt cut straight.....I guess all in all you just have to find what works best for you and no there is nothing idiot proof.
File guides takes care of the one thing that takes alot of practice when learning how to free file without a guide.... that is keeping the round file at the right height in the cutter's gullet to maintain the proper sideplate "hook" angle.
But in time (if you do enough cutting) you will want to dispose of the training wheels after you are comfortable with the motion and what to expect in your results.
Best advice I can give you is when I free file I have the best view of the cutter plus I can hold onto the cutter with my free hand thumb and fore finger to steady it as I file .((Holding the right hand cutters depth gauge or below it at the rivet. Holding the rear of the left hand cutters or below it at the rivet.))
Of course I'm not holding the file with 2 hands so it takes a bit more grip strength and endurance to completely file a rocked out chain. But I am still using 2 hands with one holding the cutter steady relieving stress on my file hand.
Also as your learning to free file you will need to squat down or lay the saw on its side to see that you're staying on track with the proper side plate angle.
One other thing to consider is depth gauge lowering with either the .025" constant method or the progressive method.
I don't recommend casual chainsaw user's to file depth gauges progressive as most times they will never use up their chain long enough to make it practical.
But if they do have enough skill and patience to keep the chain out of the dirt and rocks it can be practical and makes good use of money well spent.
Using a worn out bar with spread rails will not work with cutters filed down as small as you can get them.
But if your bar is in good shape those tiny cutter bits with depth gauges at .038"-.040" will cut like crazy.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20190206_081039.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549465526)
What's the progressive method regarding rakers? I take less care of them than I probably should. I might hit them every 6 or so sharpenings, simply checking with the Stihl file gauge. File flat, then round over the leading edge.
Quote from: lxskllr on February 06, 2019, 10:24:54 AM
What's the progressive method regarding rakers? I take less care of them than I probably should. I might hit them every 6 or so sharpenings, simply checking with the Stihl file gauge. File flat, then round over the leading edge.
You need this tool made by Carlton since the 1960's. The newer similar ones today like the Husqvarna model I'm not sure about as I have no experience with them.
But when I get my cutters filed back that small I have a .040 depth gaugit that I use. And yes of course we all know to round that leading corner on the depth gauge off as they don't illustrate in the diagram I posted.
After a hour or 2 of cutting that corner will be perfectly honed smooth to the proper angle for when the cutter is tipped back in the feed position. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20190206_081010.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549469273)
If your Stihl Depth Gauge tool looks something like one of these:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/depthgauge.gif)
Then you are setting them using the constant method: the depth gauge is always a set amount (often .025") below the tip of the cutter tooth. This method also requires that you keep all of your teeth the same length for best results (since the tool rests across the tops of multiple teeth, if your teeth are not the same, the tool will sit at an angle, throwig off the depth in relation to the following tooth). Getting all of the cutters on one side shorter than those on the other makes them take less of a bite, causing your saw to cut on a curve.
Progressive depth gauges like this one (found on the roller filing guide) rest on the top of one tooth, and allow the associated depth gauge to poke up through the hole. You file off whatever sticks up. (In the photo, the tooth that matters is the one that is covered by the tool, more or less under the roller. Its associated cutter is poking up through the hole.) These have two advantages: (1) as the tooth is filed back, the depth gauge is gradually set deeper in relation to the associated tooth, allowing the chain to continue to take the proper "bite" in the wood (as shown in the picture Holmen Tree posted). and (2) Since each depth gauge height is set solely in reference to its associated tooth, it's not as important to get all of the teeth filed to exactly the same length (I still don't let them get way out of whack with each other, but a bit of difference has basically no effect on cutting performance.)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/depth_gauge_guide.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1420894070)
If you are not using a roller guide, this type of depth gauge tool works on the same principle (you just use one end or the other, depending on whether you are setting up for softwood or hardwood. I tend to do all of mine on the hardwood setting, since that's 90% or more of what I cut.)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/Husky_Depth_Gauge_tool~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1533908363)
Yea, I'm using the long gauge. Next time I make an order, I'll try to remember to pickup a short one. I'd like to try it out. Remembering's the hard part. I'll sit there staring at my cart knowing there's something else I wanted, but won't remember til 12 hours after I hit [Submit] :^/
I have many types of gauges I've collected over the years.
This one is my favorite, it for setting bow saw blades but works fine on sawchain. It's very old as it has $1.85 on the back of the box scratched out and replaced with $2.75.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20190206_100921.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549471894)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20190206_101032.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549471913)
I bought it from wood working guru Leonard Lee founder of Lee Valley tools back in the late 1970's .
He was born in and raised in Saskatchewan just down the road from our farm.
Excellent read here about his dynasty.
Lee Valley Tools founder Leonard Lee treated customers as friends - The Globe and Mail (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/lee-valley-tools-founder-leonard-lee-treated-customers-as-friends/article30943693/)
EDIT: I fixed the link. Lee Valley has stores in the US too. Reno, Nevada and Ogdensburg, New York.
Lee Valley Tools founder Leonard Lee treated customers as friends - The Globe and Mail (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/lee-valley-tools-founder-leonard-lee-treated-customers-as-friends/article30943693/)
I'm beating the PFERD dead horse so much, maybe we'll join the company in Deuchland. It's not a public one, so no stock.
Hey all, you don't need all those guides that get lost in the sawdust, or plug in a tool that can easily damage the chain. Get a tool that does it all, simply, cheaply, reliably. The electric grinders don't do the rakers with one pass. Think of the time saved, the anxiety, the stress, the convenience in the field to touch up the chains. :snowball:
.....continue with the beating. ???
Quote from: Pulphook on February 06, 2019, 12:22:58 PM
I'm beating the PFERD dead horse so much, maybe we'll join the company in Deuchland. It's not a public one, so no stock.
Hey all, you don't need all those guides that get lost in the sawdust, or plug in a tool that can easily damage the chain. Get a tool that does it all, simply, cheaply, reliably. The electric grinders don't do the rakers with one pass. Think of the time saved, the anxiety, the stress, the convenience in the field to touch up the chains. :snowball:
.....continue with the beating. ???
Yes the Pferd/Stihl 2 in 1 is a great tool to learn on but you still need one more tool to lug around to use with it.....a stump vise.
The 2 in 1 can only be used properly with both hands. ;D
Quote from: Pulphook on February 06, 2019, 12:22:58 PM
I'm beating the PFERD dead horse so much, maybe we'll join the company in Deuchland. It's not a public one, so no stock.
Hey all, you don't need all those guides that get lost in the sawdust, or plug in a tool that can easily damage the chain. Get a tool that does it all, simply, cheaply, reliably. The electric grinders don't do the rakers with one pass. Think of the time saved, the anxiety, the stress, the convenience in the field to touch up the chains. :snowball:
.....continue with the beating. ???
You beat that horse as long as you want Pulp, as long as you've stopped insinuating my shed is really an outhouse I am happy you have a new focus. :D :D
Quote from: HolmenTree on February 06, 2019, 12:01:46 PM
EDIT: I fixed the link. Lee Valley has stores in the US too. Reno, Nevada and Ogdensburg, New York.
Lee Valley Tools founder Leonard Lee treated customers as friends - The Globe and Mail (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/lee-valley-tools-founder-leonard-lee-treated-customers-as-friends/article30943693/)
loved the story I buy a lot of tools form Lee Valley
Quote from: bwstout on February 06, 2019, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on February 06, 2019, 12:01:46 PM
EDIT: I fixed the link. Lee Valley has stores in the US too. Reno, Nevada and Ogdensburg, New York.
Lee Valley Tools founder Leonard Lee treated customers as friends - The Globe and Mail (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/lee-valley-tools-founder-leonard-lee-treated-customers-as-friends/article30943693/)
loved the story I buy a lot of tools form Lee Valley
Yes they are very unique aren't they :)
Quote from: Pulphook on February 06, 2019, 12:22:58 PM
I'm beating the PFERD dead horse so much, maybe we'll join the company in Deuchland. It's not a public one, so no stock.
Hey all, you don't need all those guides that get lost in the sawdust, or plug in a tool that can easily damage the chain. Get a tool that does it all, simply, cheaply, reliably. The electric grinders don't do the rakers with one pass. Think of the time saved, the anxiety, the stress, the convenience in the field to touch up the chains. :snowball:
.....continue with the beating. ???
I've tried the Pferd/Stihl system. It does do a good job of sharpening. I've not bought one, and probably will not because it uses a constant height for the depth gauges, rather than progressive depth gauge height. This means loss of cutting efficiency as the chain is filed back. The system also requires that all cutters lengths be kept the same (as all constant depth gauge systems I've ever seen do). I like being able to remove only as much material as each tooth needs (within reason) and still have my saw cut straight.
Mostly, I just like the break that sharpening my chain involves. It forces me to slow down, hydrate, take stock of myself, and plan what I'm doing next. So a bit of extra time spent tinkering is not a big deal for me.
Well said John, I had a veteran cut and skid foreman tell me that once when I was just a teenager tree falling for a living.
Sit down rest, file your chain and help your partner pull out the mainline on the skidder and help choke up a few trees. Then he helps me by back blading some of my limbs.
Teamwork.
I can and will file a dull chain from sawing at home or in my yard.
I really like my tried and true....take it to the shop. He charges me $8 to sharpen and my chain and it comes back like new. If it does not cut well he will resharpen. I buy all his used sharpened chains for $10, these are the ones people drop off and don't pick up in a timely fasion :D
I rarely use my saws except around the sawmill. I hit steel all the time, from metal in the logs or even touching the mill, usually before my chains get dull. I keep 3 chains for each saw, 170-026-390. When 2 are damaged in they go to the shop. I charge by the hour so the customer really does not want me sitting filling a chain.
Quote from: Stephen1 on February 06, 2019, 06:33:22 PM
I can and will file a dull chain from sawing at home or in my yard.
I really like my tried and true....take it to the shop. He charges me $8 to sharpen and my chain and it comes back like new. If it does not cut well he will resharpen. I buy all his used sharpened chains for $10, these are the ones people drop off and don't pick up in a timely fasion :D
I rarely use my saws except around the sawmill. I hit steel all the time, from metal in the logs or even touching the mill, usually before my chains get dull. I keep 3 chains for each saw, 170-026-390. When 2 are damaged in they go to the shop. I charge by the hour so the customer really does not want me sitting filling a chain.
I have 4 places i have took chains locally and they never come Back right. This stihl tool i bought was well worth the 39.99. Some consider it a gimmick some make fun of you for using it but as long as it sharpens my chains and im not fighting the saw then im happy.
Last year when I was cutting a lot, I had (still do) a local old guy that I would take them to on rotation. He had a box I could leave them in if he was there, just a tag with my name and $5./chain. He did a good job, but it was a standard round bench grind and he took a lot off each time, chain life was short. I asked him about doing square grind and he didn't know what I was talking about. I asked him about sharpening my hand rip and crosscut saws and he said, throw them out and buy new. (My Dad bought those saws (Simonds) new for a king's ransom in 1955 and I will be dammed if I am going to throw them out!) I stopped going to him and worked on my skills. Do all my own chains now, no matter how busy I am, it's faster and better. But I am not commercial.
Quote from: HolmenTree on January 30, 2019, 03:05:32 PM
First rule is good eyesight or you're lost without it.
This is very true, a lot of people don't watch close enough. I like to watch closely to make sure my file is at the right angle. Just make sure you wear safety glasses your eyes don't like those shavings, learned that one the hard way. 😂
A stump vise is the other "can't do without" tool. Small enough to fit, easy to use, portable to touch up while cutting in the woodlot.
John is correct about raker height. Long time ago I took the advice of a so-called 'experienced' logger who said that he files his rakers down to nothing. The saw near fell out of my hands without set rakers and bounced. Not too safe or bright. Advice from the pros not always on target. :-[
Quote from: Pulphook on February 07, 2019, 08:05:50 AM
John is correct about raker height. Long time ago I took the advice of a so-called 'experienced' logger who said that he files his rakers down to nothing. The saw near fell out of my hands without set rakers and bounced. Not too safe or bright. Advice from the pros not always on target. :-[
Once again proving the axiom that "experience" is simply a series of non-fatal mistakes... :D
Mentioned earlier that I hit a steel broadhead embedded in a dead elm, damaged only one side of a nearly new chain. Will be a challenge to get sharpened correctly, especially raker height, since constant height measurement is all we've ever done. Thanks for the tutoring!
Scott B.
My problem with hand sharpening is I don't seem to have enough patience. Years ago when my FIL was still alive that guy could file a chain free hand like none other. I bought a PFERD when they first came out and it worked well for me. About five years ago a good friend bought a acreage so I gave him a couple saws and the PFERD that I had. Had a older gentleman in town that did chains for three bucks for something to do. He did a good job sharpening. He pass on last fall so it will be time to figure out my next plan. I have two main saws we clean pastures with and buck firewood and I run a 20 inch 3/8 on them so I have around thirty chains I would rotate and usually take 20 at a time to him to sharpen. I do have a couple Foley Belsaw 308 sharpeners that a buddy found on a garage sale years ago for twenty bucks. I should get them out and see what I have maybe can get them up and running and use one for the angle and one for rakers.
I had an education this year. For the last 8 years all I have ran is Oregon chain. Mostly semi-chisel but I did try full chisel several times.
I have a grinder with a CBN wheel.
Like you, no matter what I did I could not get the chain to cut very well. I have no desire to hand file as I find it slow and tedious and not any better than sharpening with a good quality wheel and a light touch. Regardless of HOW I filed or ground the chain it didn't cut great and had to be sharpened often.
This year I went to Stihl brand full-chisel and OMG what a difference!` It seems like I can cut forever between sharpening. When I do sharpen with the grinder, it cuts like new and pulls itself into the cut. Night and day difference. I will never, ever, run Oregon chain again.
I've read that the chrome is harder on the stihl chain but whatever it is, it is far superior to Oregon chain. I'm enjoying cutting now where I didn't in the past.
I liked the chain so well I bought 5 loops. I set the grinder angle and sharpen all 5 loops only every other tooth. Then I switch the angle and sharpen all 5 loops on the opposite tooth. Saves having to adjust the grinder too often. Those 5 loops last me a long time. I merely switch chains when it's time.
Quote from: Kwill on February 06, 2019, 08:58:02 PM
I have 4 places i have took chains locally and they never come Back right. This stihl tool i bought was well worth the 39.99. Some consider it a gimmick some make fun of you for using it but as long as it sharpens my chains and im not fighting the saw then im happy.
Don't hold on to the file too long and try to save money or anything. When it gets dull get rid of it. I don't always follow my own advice cause I'm a little stupid. I was toting an old file with me today to cut vines. Figured that crappy chain didn't deserve a good file. Got back to the truck tired, and was gonna get everything setup for next time; dragged my old file across the teeth, and said "screw this", and got a new one. Such a nice difference. A light stroke makes a shower of fines, and it sharpens like it should. I was only punishing myself taking that lame file with me.
Don't be stupid like me. A new Stihl file is a bargain at twice the price ;^)
I buy files by the box,so when one is bad,I throw it away. I feel it can affect my filing. I have a small saw and a big saw,so I have 2 diffeant size files,and a box of each.
Sometimes I will slip when I am filing. I wear all leather gloves when I am filing. The gloves I wear when I am working has the cloth over the knuckles. Only took me a couple times of drawing blooding to wear all leather gloves to protect my knuckles. I keep a pair on the tractor and a pair in the garage.
Files must be protected from touching any metal. Buy them by the box and always have a new one. File ALL THE TIME , don't let your teeth ever get dull. If you grind, keep grinding as the teeth will not file right after being glazed by the stone. A sharp file and only one or two strokes lets you concentrate .
This may not be your cup of tea, but, I made an adjustable for height slide in piece with a smallish vise mounted to, so that it slides in your truck frame mounted reciever hitch, that I can grab hold of my bar with. Besides sharpening, it is also great for having a free hand for doing any type of tuning that I see fit. Not to mention, it is good for whatever else I deem necessary to give me that elusive third hand!
Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 08, 2019, 04:02:00 PM
This may not be your cup of tea, but, I made an adjustable for height slide in piece with a smallish vise mounted to, so that it slides in your truck frame mounted reciever hitch, that I can grab hold of my bar with. Besides sharpening, it is also great for having a free hand for doing any type of tuning that I see fit. Not to mention, it is good for whatever else I deem necessary to give me that elusive third hand!
A tree guy I worked for as a kid had that on the front bumber of a '49 dodge.
Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 08, 2019, 04:02:00 PM
This may not be your cup of tea, but, I made an adjustable for height slide in piece with a smallish vise mounted to, so that it slides in your truck frame mounted reciever hitch, that I can grab hold of my bar with. Besides sharpening, it is also great for having a free hand for doing any type of tuning that I see fit. Not to mention, it is good for whatever else I deem necessary to give me that elusive third hand!
I would like to see a picture of that for sure.
Quote from: Stephen1 on February 12, 2019, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 08, 2019, 04:02:00 PM
This may not be your cup of tea, but, I made an adjustable for height slide in piece with a smallish vise mounted to, so that it slides in your truck frame mounted reciever hitch, that I can grab hold of my bar with. Besides sharpening, it is also great for having a free hand for doing any type of tuning that I see fit. Not to mention, it is good for whatever else I deem necessary to give me that elusive third hand!
I would like to see a picture of that for sure.
That was about 1960, he kept the vise when I bought the truck that I junked about 12 years ago.
Years ago when I used to do a lot of custom round baling of hay I had a vise mount on the front of a JD 4240 tractor so I could cut and spice the belts out in the field. Having a vise around can be very handy.
I free handfiled for about 15years and i consider myself good at it. i can get a chain cut maybe a little bit better than new or at least as good as new.
since one year i use the 2in1 file and it's hand down the best filling tool there is, period. I can file a 18" long B/C in 90 seconds and the chain cuts like crazy, i do need a vise though. I have one on my quad which is always with me when i'm falling.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/zz_28729.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1514586772)
we work 6 hours falling a day (85F heat and up) and i file my saw 5-6 times and the 2 saws of my helpers also every day so i can not take 5min per filing. I also bet that i'm faster sharpening with the 2in1 than a guy taking a dull chain off and putting a new one on. I consider even 1 dollar to much to pay for another person filing my chains.
i guess that just 3-5% of all chainsaw users will file a chain sharper than me with the 2in1.
and whats the point of having the sharpest chain (unless your in a competition)? I work in teak and the initial freshly sharpened edge is gone after 10min.
What chain do you use for cutting teak; RS?
No, normal RM. the RS won't hold an edge for 5min and then dull they are way slow and nerve wrecking. Teak is very abrasive because of the oil it has and i cut pretty low, so the RM is way more forgiving.
Well i highly reccomend the 2in1 stihl tool for anyone who has struggled like me to keep a sharp chain. My saw is cutting better now than is has in a long time. Almost like putting a new chain on.
Ill start by saying that I have always sucked at sharpining my saws. I heat 100 % with wood . Several years ago through a disscusion on here i discovered the husky roller guides and that made a huge difference in my filing consistency, but they still never stayed sharp as long as they should. To make a short story long , I needed a box of files today but instead bought the 2 in one system. Without a doubt 40 bucks well spent ! I touched up my old chain and had at it. Did I say I suck at sharpening ? It was immediately apparent! I burned up more than a tank of gas on my pile of dirty frozen logs and i bet it was still cutting better than when i started with the roller. Im sold.
i'm tempted to try the stihl 2in1 out.. Because my chain doesn't pull into the wood when sharpening with husqvarna roller guide.
I didnt want to spend the 40.00 but i was tired of spending 4.00 a chain to get them sharpened and they came back worse than before i sent them. It was 40 well spent.
My dealer told me he orders 6 or 8 at a time and is always running out.
So all this talk back and forth and I think simply those that are struggling aren't filing their rakers. Just my two cents from reading all the posts. The two in one obviously will do both in one pass. I haven't tried this myself but sound decent especially if speed of filing is important to you.
So long as the teeth are sharp, there's hook angle on the side plate and the rakers aren't too high a chain will cut good. I've gotten chains in here sharpened by local shops with a negative hook angle on the side plate , no way would they cut good. . Steve
Can I set this thread to send me a notification when somebody post's that they have a 2 in 1 that does square grind? I'll try it then. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
I haven't read through all the replies, and it probably has been stated. Or maybe I'm just an oddball :D . I've found the best way for me is to not let it go too far. Every time I go in the woods, I put the saw in the vice, no guides just a handle and file. If you start with a new chain, I DON'T FIND YOU'LL LOSE YOU'RE ANGLE. A couple swipes and it's fresh. A couple swipes on the rakers on a new chain too. If you keep after it, you know how far to shave off the rakers too. You need to touch it up in the woods, a stump vice or just touch up over a log or between your knees. I think the most inportant piece of the puzzle is don't let it go too far....
Stump vice is one of the K.I.S.S. tools like my pulphook that are mandatory.
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
Quote from: John Mc on February 16, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
John, It's just a little confusing terminology and a bit of semantics at Play here, I knew what pulp meant. He meant full chisel to be a square ground chisel tooth and Semi chisel to be a round ground chisel tooth. Nothing wrong with the round ground, i jut like the square, it makes a pretty chip and as a machinist, I am devoted to making proper chips (it's our 'thing'). I actually buy round ground chains and run them until dull then convert them to square for the remainder of their useful lives. I can't get square ground in my pitch and gauge. I doubt there will ever be a Pferd for square because of the angle you must hold the file to the top plate. I think this is why very few folks use square, there are no guides available. Different (file) strokes for different folks, right?
There's 100' of Stihl 3/8 .050 full skip square grind chain for $400 shipped on ebay right now.
Yup, but I use .325 x .050 and nobody sells loops. I have enough to do and I don't have the time or tools to make loops. I just don't cut enough to justify it for myself. I don't use a skip tooth either. Geez, just thinking for me, 100' would last well after my coffin goes to dust. :D ;D
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 17, 2019, 12:16:21 AM
Quote from: John Mc on February 16, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
John, It's just a little confusing terminology and a bit of semantics at Play here, I knew what pulp meant. He meant full chisel to be a square ground chisel tooth and Semi chisel to be a round ground chisel tooth. Nothing wrong with the round ground, i jut like the square, it makes a pretty chip and as a machinist, I am devoted to making proper chips (it's our 'thing'). I actually buy round ground chains and run them until dull then convert them to square for the remainder of their useful lives. I can't get square ground in my pitch and gauge. I doubt there will ever be a Pferd for square because of the angle you must hold the file to the top plate. I think this is why very few folks use square, there are no guides available. Different (file) strokes for different folks, right?
All correct thankyou...."thankyou very much" E. Presley. Lonely being right. :snowball:
Yup, tried square but it dulls fast with the trees here--dirt, rot, barbed wire, rounds, nails. I've got the time to cut slower and not stop to touch up a chain often. That Pferd with the stump vise is a lifesaver in the field.
Can you use a roller guide to square file? The "never tried" in me asks: why not. Is it going to be faster in the cut than a round? If anyone has tried, please say so, because I am REAL curious to know, without spending the money to find out. None of the dealers around here seem to know anything about, or even heard of, any of the files that have any relationship to this. Only the round ones. It would also be fun for me to help educate some people. Thanks in advance.
Try Baileys or other arborist suppliers online. A pro chainsaw dealer will have the square saw tools for sharpening.
I have tried square or full. It is faster than round semi, but again it dulls fast if not cutting clean wood.
JMNSHO
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 17, 2019, 12:16:21 AM
Quote from: John Mc on February 16, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
John, It's just a little confusing terminology and a bit of semantics at Play here, I knew what pulp meant. He meant full chisel to be a square ground chisel tooth and Semi chisel to be a round ground chisel tooth. Nothing wrong with the round ground, i jut like the square, it makes a pretty chip and as a machinist, I am devoted to making proper chips (it's our 'thing'). I actually buy round ground chains and run them until dull then convert them to square for the remainder of their useful lives. I can't get square ground in my pitch and gauge. I doubt there will ever be a Pferd for square because of the angle you must hold the file to the top plate. I think this is why very few folks use square, there are no guides available. Different (file) strokes for different folks, right?
I was not arguing for or against square ground chain. I was making a point about the correct use of the terminology. It can be confusing for those who are new to this. I'm not saying Pulphook is "new", but it could be confusing to those reading his post who are still learning the terminology, or those who know the terminology, but are not familiar with the Pferd/Stihl sharpener: It does semi chisel, it does full chisel. It does not do square-ground chains.
Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 17, 2019, 06:54:56 AM
Can you use a roller guide to square file? The "never tried" in me asks: why not. Is it going to be faster in the cut than a round? If anyone has tried, please say so, because I am REAL curious to know, without spending the money to find out. None of the dealers around here seem to know anything about, or even heard of, any of the files that have any relationship to this. Only the round ones. It would also be fun for me to help educate some people. Thanks in advance.
The roller guide does not hold the file at the right height and orientation for square filing.
That said, you'd think it would be possible to make a roller guide & file combination that would work for square filing, but it might need to be a customized file as well as a custom roller guide.
Quote from: John Mc on February 17, 2019, 08:20:44 AM
The roller guide does not hold the file at the right height and orientation for square filing.
That said, you'd think it would be possible to make a roller guide & file combination that would work for square filing, but it might need to be a customized file as well as a custom roller guide.
It's a fairly niche use by western fallers almost exclusively afaik. Probably not a lot of call for mass market solutions. Someone clever, might be able to knock something together, and make a little side income, especially if that someone was a machinist ( @Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) ) ;^)
Quote from: lxskllr on February 17, 2019, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: John Mc on February 17, 2019, 08:20:44 AM
The roller guide does not hold the file at the right height and orientation for square filing.
That said, you'd think it would be possible to make a roller guide & file combination that would work for square filing, but it might need to be a customized file as well as a custom roller guide.
It's a fairly niche use by western fallers almost exclusively afaik. Probably not a lot of call for mass market solutions. Someone clever, might be able to knock something together, and make a little side income, especially if that someone was a machinist ( @Old Greenhorn (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) ) ;^)
There are folks out here in VT that use square ground as well. Definitely not as common as round-ground (either full or semi-chisel).
Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 17, 2019, 06:54:56 AM
Can you use a roller guide to square file? The "never tried" in me asks: why not. Is it going to be faster in the cut than a round? If anyone has tried, please say so, because I am REAL curious to know, without spending the money to find out. None of the dealers around here seem to know anything about, or even heard of, any of the files that have any relationship to this. Only the round ones. It would also be fun for me to help educate some people. Thanks in advance.
Todd, I'm not sure if you've read this whole thread, and there was another one recently where we (I) were talking Square grind. It's just what I have found that works for me and not for everyone. Pretty much everyone agrees, as is borne out by testing, that the square grind chain cuts faster and uses a tad less horsepower (see various you tube side by side tests if you are into that). I think it is fair to say that you need to find someone, as I did, that can teach you the method and it helps a lot if you can start with a square ground chain. I can't get those, I convert round ground full chisels which take me abut 1/2 hour to 45 minutes, depending on the quality of the light and my mood :). Most dealers outside of the PNW (or big timber country) will not know what you are talking about. You will have to order your files from a decent supplier like Baily's or Stahl's. They cost more than the rounds, but last longer (again, for ME). The technique it not so easy to learn unless you have a lot of filing time and understand cutting edge geometry requirement intuitively, but it can be mastered with a bit of effort. I have discussed this in a few threads now and I don't want folks to think I am 'pushing' it for others to use. I simply carry the torch for this method because it is a good one and not widely known as you have learned. I think it is part of the tradition of falling and woods work and I don't like to see that stuff disappear. Some of us have to carry these things forward and I am happy to do that. There is this thing you keep hearing that as pulp said above this tooth form dulls easy. Yu see I just have not found that yet. All teeth dull in dirty wood or when you hit rocks or barbed wire, but mine don't seem to be any worse than any others I have tried. Maybe I don't cut enough, maybe my wood is different, maybe i am just a dolt and easy to please. All I know is what works for me. I did some research and made a comment in another thread around here that I can't find wherein I found a document from Oregon wherein they state this issue of easy dulling and I postulate as to why they would write that.
There is a ton of information here about square filing with very good links to some instruction. Use the search engine, make a pot of coffee, take a Sunday morning, and have at it. I have had a lot of fun getting good at this method, but I am lot being paid by the ton, or have a skidder operator staring me down waiting for a hitch. It's a little like watching these guys that do timber framing which I am in awe of. They make a plan, take the time needed, and produce beauty. They may have all the right tools, but there are few shortcuts when it comes to skill and experience. I wish I could do that, but I can't (yet).
@lxskllr (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=39990) I thought about it (making a jig) for a glancing moment when I was first learning. The file goes at a fairly sharp (compared to round) angle to the bar and any jig you make is going to be cumbersome. Also, the MOST critical feature is where the corner of the file breaks out on the corner of the tooth. This must be right on every tooth or it won't cut right makes a poor chip, and dulls quickly. I don't know if you could replace this with a jig. As I have worked as a designer in the past, I looked at how something like that would be for a user to carry and use, how much interest there would be, whether sales would justify design, prototyping, test, modification, marketing studies, patents, production costs, etc and all of a sudden I had a headache and it was no longer fun to sharpen my chain in peace and quiet. I purged the thought from my head. I am pretty much ensconced in the 'grumpy old man phase' of my life (and ding well with it, thank you) where I do things the way I want, when I want, and don't really care what others think. As long as I harm no one, I should be left to my own. If someone asks for help I will give it. If they don't want my help, I will leave them alone. In that vein, I think if folks want to square file, they should put in the time and practice to learn the right way, just as tens of thousands of others have done before them. If I did it, they can too. After all, I may be old, but I am still a Greenhorn when it comes to a lot of things, so I am still learning and I don't think I will break that habit until they are shoveling dirt in my face.
[EDIT: @tacomatodd Search for 'square chain' and you will get plenty of good hits. Also, I found the thread with the comment I mentioned above, ironically it was YOUR thread, found here: Chain life n file type in Chainsaws (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=104995.msg1633892#msg1633892) ]
I'm /almost/ curious about square ground chain, but don't want to go back to square(Hah!) one with my sharpening. I do a competent job with a round file, and have room to improve, but I cut a lot of trash; at least at this time. I don't think even a quality square grind would benefit me, much less my starter attempts at getting it right. Add in the extra hassle of buying supplies, I think that'll be something for the future, or maybe never.
Quote from: lxskllr on February 17, 2019, 09:30:36 AM
I'm /almost/ curious about square ground chain, but don't want to go back to square(Hah!) one with my sharpening. I do a competent job with a round file, and have room to improve, but I cut a lot of trash; at least at this time. I don't think even a quality square grind would benefit me, much less my starter attempts at getting it right. Add in the extra hassle of buying supplies, I think that'll be something for the future, or maybe never.
I hear ya. It took me a few years to finally get around to trying it, mostly because all I could find was online info and that is no way to learn something like this. Then I met a fella who could teach me and did all his chains that way. He was in fact pleased that I was really interested and gave me a solid 20 minutes of instruction and did a few sample teeth for me to model on. That was all I needed. I had read all the negative opinions about the difficulty, but I find it is easier and faster for me, with just one file to carry. A lot of guys said they had to ruin 3 chains before they got one right and stuff like that, which turned me off. Then one day I decided to see for myself. [Insert witty line here about trying something once and never going back.] :)
Gentle folks, men & women, as always, you have been a WEALTH of information. Thank you. I will continue with my round filing way of life. " Keeping It Sharp! "
I have been doing an OK job at hand sharpening for 40 years. Last month I bought Harbor Freight $30 ($25 after coupon) sharpener and got excellent and fast results the first time I used it. I ordered some more loops of chain instead of files.
Whatever manual aid you use or going freehand,2 nice to have things in your workshop are a narrow beam overhead light+a bench vice that swivels around and lets you stand in a nice natural position while sharpening.
Quote from: HolmenTree on January 31, 2019, 12:27:32 PM
Always hand file the right hand cutters first because if your file slips out of the right hand cutter's gullet your index finger knuckle will get sliced to the bone on a freshly sharpened left hand cutter. And the thickest leather gloves won't save your knuckle.
Here's how I like to file my chain, comfortable, good view of the cutting edges, free hand supports the cutters from wobbling and firm grip on the saw. Got my reading glasses on too ;D
Works the same sitting on a log or stump.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11960.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141126)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/SDC11959.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431141074)
I tried this across the legs method out in the field and it seemed to work good
You're head is right above the file. I changed legs to do the other side like a mirror{slightly different}.2 things.1 You need a glove/mat rag to sit the bar on.2 A hot saw on a hot day isn't something nice to cuddle . Apart from those bumps I liked this method.
Air Lad, I put a piece of wood or a wooden cookie on my knee so the chain doesn't scratch up my saw pants. When my daughter took that demonstration photo in my shop I just used my glove. Normally in the shop I put the saw in the bench vise.
On the subject of cuddling a warm saw it is nice on a cool day.
A little momentary discomfort on a hot day pays rewards later not having to struggle cutting with a dull saw.
Very few guys I know can sharpen a saw perfectly by hand including me. I bought a power saw mill so I wanted to be able to sharpen the chain perfectly and I finally found a way. I recently purchase the grand burg file sharpener. I like it but I found it sometimes moved out of position so I made a easy small improvement. Here is my improvement but this grand burg file guide is an awesome tool. Logging Hand Tools 101 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ahWSFJ1jH10)