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Sharpening a chain. Why so difficult

Started by Kwill, January 30, 2019, 01:46:38 PM

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Allar

i'm tempted to try the stihl 2in1 out..  Because my chain doesn't pull into the wood when sharpening with husqvarna roller guide.
Firewood & Chainsaw videos: Firewood Warrior - YouTube

Kwill

I didnt want to spend the 40.00 but i was tired of spending 4.00 a chain to get them sharpened and they came back worse than before i sent them. It was 40 well spent.
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

breederman

My dealer told me he orders 6 or 8 at a time and is always running out. 
Together we got this !

Haggis

So all this talk back and forth and I think simply those that are struggling aren't filing their rakers. Just my two cents from reading all the posts. The two in one obviously will do both in one pass. I haven't tried this myself but sound decent especially if speed of filing is important to you.

ladylake


 So long as the teeth are sharp, there's hook angle on the side plate and the rakers aren't too high a chain will cut good.  I've gotten chains in here sharpened by local shops with a negative hook angle on the side plate , no way would they cut good.   . Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Old Greenhorn

Can I set this thread to send me a notification when somebody post's that they have a 2 in 1 that does square grind? I'll try it then.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Pulphook

Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

Pclem

I haven't read through all the replies, and it probably has been stated. Or maybe I'm just an oddball :D . I've found the best way for me is to not let it go too far. Every time I go in the woods, I put the saw in the vice, no guides just a handle and file. If you start with a new chain, I DON'T FIND YOU'LL LOSE YOU'RE ANGLE.  A couple swipes and it's fresh. A couple swipes on the rakers on a new chain too.  If you keep after it, you know how far to shave off the rakers too.  You need to touch it up in the woods, a stump vice or just touch up over a log or between your knees. I think the most inportant piece of the puzzle is don't let it go too far....
Dyna SC16. powersplit. supersplitter. firewood kilns.bobcat T190. ford 4000 with forwarding trailer. a bunch of saws, and a question on my sanity for walking away from a steady paycheck

Pulphook

Stump vice is one of the K.I.S.S. tools like my pulphook that are mandatory.
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

John Mc

Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: John Mc on February 16, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
John, It's just a little confusing terminology and a bit of semantics at Play here, I knew what pulp meant. He meant full chisel to be a square ground chisel tooth and Semi chisel to be a round ground chisel tooth. Nothing wrong with the round ground, i jut like the square, it makes a pretty chip and as a machinist, I am devoted to making proper chips (it's our 'thing'). I actually buy round ground chains and run them until dull then convert them to square for the remainder of their useful lives. I can't get square ground in my pitch and gauge. I doubt there will ever be a Pferd for square because of the angle you must hold the file to the top plate. I think this is why very few folks use square, there are no guides available. Different (file) strokes for different folks, right?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

lxskllr

There's 100' of Stihl 3/8 .050 full skip square grind chain for $400 shipped on ebay right now.

Old Greenhorn

Yup, but I use .325 x .050 and nobody sells loops. I have enough to do and I don't have the time or tools to make loops. I just don't cut enough to justify it for myself. I don't use a skip tooth either. Geez, just thinking for me, 100' would last well after my coffin goes to dust. :D ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Pulphook

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 17, 2019, 12:16:21 AM
Quote from: John Mc on February 16, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
John, It's just a little confusing terminology and a bit of semantics at Play here, I knew what pulp meant. He meant full chisel to be a square ground chisel tooth and Semi chisel to be a round ground chisel tooth. Nothing wrong with the round ground, i jut like the square, it makes a pretty chip and as a machinist, I am devoted to making proper chips (it's our 'thing'). I actually buy round ground chains and run them until dull then convert them to square for the remainder of their useful lives. I can't get square ground in my pitch and gauge. I doubt there will ever be a Pferd for square because of the angle you must hold the file to the top plate. I think this is why very few folks use square, there are no guides available. Different (file) strokes for different folks, right?
All correct thankyou...."thankyou very much" E. Presley. Lonely being right. :snowball:
Yup, tried square but it dulls fast with the trees here--dirt, rot, barbed wire, rounds, nails. I've got the time to cut slower and not stop to touch up a chain often. That Pferd with the stump vise is a lifesaver in the field.
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

TACOMATODD

Can you use a roller guide to square file? The "never tried" in me asks: why not. Is it going to be faster in the cut than a round? If anyone has tried, please say so, because I am REAL curious to know, without spending the money to find out. None of the dealers around here seem to know anything about, or even heard of, any of the files that have any relationship to this. Only the round ones. It would also be fun for me to help educate some people. Thanks in advance.
Trying harder everyday

Pulphook

Try Baileys or other arborist suppliers online. A pro chainsaw dealer will have the square saw tools for sharpening.
I have tried square or full. It is faster than round semi, but again it dulls fast if not cutting clean wood.
JMNSHO
Two wood stoves ( Jotul Rangely ,Jotul Oslo ) heating 99 44/100%
24/7. No central heat. 6-8 cords firewood from the woodlot /year. Low low tech: ATV with trailer, 3 saws, 2 electric splitters, a worn pulphook, peavy, climbing line for skidding, Fiskars 27, an old back getting older.

John Mc

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 17, 2019, 12:16:21 AM
Quote from: John Mc on February 16, 2019, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Pulphook on February 15, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
Sorry O.G. the Pferd 2in1 I know does not do full chisel....could be wrong. I've always used semi since the full chisel dulls too fast with mixed unclean wood.
Why not ask Pferd if they could make one ?
Huh? You are not confusing Full Chisel with square ground, are you? The Pferd 2 in one will most certainly do full chisel. It will not do square ground.
John, It's just a little confusing terminology and a bit of semantics at Play here, I knew what pulp meant. He meant full chisel to be a square ground chisel tooth and Semi chisel to be a round ground chisel tooth. Nothing wrong with the round ground, i jut like the square, it makes a pretty chip and as a machinist, I am devoted to making proper chips (it's our 'thing'). I actually buy round ground chains and run them until dull then convert them to square for the remainder of their useful lives. I can't get square ground in my pitch and gauge. I doubt there will ever be a Pferd for square because of the angle you must hold the file to the top plate. I think this is why very few folks use square, there are no guides available. Different (file) strokes for different folks, right?
I was not arguing for or against square ground chain. I was making a point about the correct use of the terminology. It can be confusing for those who are new to this. I'm not saying Pulphook is "new", but it could be confusing to those reading his post who are still learning the terminology, or those who know the terminology, but are not familiar with the Pferd/Stihl sharpener: It does semi chisel, it does full chisel. It does not do square-ground chains.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 17, 2019, 06:54:56 AM
Can you use a roller guide to square file? The "never tried" in me asks: why not. Is it going to be faster in the cut than a round? If anyone has tried, please say so, because I am REAL curious to know, without spending the money to find out. None of the dealers around here seem to know anything about, or even heard of, any of the files that have any relationship to this. Only the round ones. It would also be fun for me to help educate some people. Thanks in advance.
The roller guide does not hold the file at the right height and orientation for square filing.
That said, you'd think it would be possible to make a roller guide & file combination that would work for square filing, but it might need to be a customized file as well as a custom roller guide.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

lxskllr

Quote from: John Mc on February 17, 2019, 08:20:44 AM

The roller guide does not hold the file at the right height and orientation for square filing.
That said, you'd think it would be possible to make a roller guide & file combination that would work for square filing, but it might need to be a customized file as well as a custom roller guide.
It's a fairly niche use by western fallers almost exclusively afaik. Probably not a lot of call for mass market solutions. Someone clever, might be able to knock something together, and make a little side income, especially if that someone was a machinist ( @Old Greenhorn )  ;^)

John Mc

Quote from: lxskllr on February 17, 2019, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: John Mc on February 17, 2019, 08:20:44 AM

The roller guide does not hold the file at the right height and orientation for square filing.
That said, you'd think it would be possible to make a roller guide & file combination that would work for square filing, but it might need to be a customized file as well as a custom roller guide.
It's a fairly niche use by western fallers almost exclusively afaik. Probably not a lot of call for mass market solutions. Someone clever, might be able to knock something together, and make a little side income, especially if that someone was a machinist ( @Old Greenhorn )  ;^)
There are folks out here in VT that use square ground as well. Definitely not as common as round-ground (either full or semi-chisel).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: TACOMATODD on February 17, 2019, 06:54:56 AM
Can you use a roller guide to square file? The "never tried" in me asks: why not. Is it going to be faster in the cut than a round? If anyone has tried, please say so, because I am REAL curious to know, without spending the money to find out. None of the dealers around here seem to know anything about, or even heard of, any of the files that have any relationship to this. Only the round ones. It would also be fun for me to help educate some people. Thanks in advance.
Todd, I'm not sure if you've read this whole thread, and there was another one recently where we (I) were talking Square grind. It's just what I have found that works for me and not for everyone. Pretty much everyone agrees, as is borne out by testing, that the square grind chain cuts faster and uses a tad less horsepower (see various you tube side by side tests if you are into that). I think it is fair to say that you need to find someone, as I did, that can teach you the method and it helps a lot if you can start with a square ground chain. I can't get those, I convert round ground full chisels which take me abut 1/2 hour to 45 minutes, depending on the quality of the light and my mood :). Most dealers outside of the PNW (or big timber country) will not know what you are talking about. You will have to order your files from a decent supplier like Baily's or Stahl's. They cost more than the rounds, but last longer (again, for ME). The technique it not so easy to learn unless you have a lot of filing time and understand cutting edge geometry requirement intuitively, but it can be mastered with a bit of effort. I have discussed this in a few threads now and I don't want folks to think I am 'pushing' it for others to use. I simply carry the torch for this method because it is a good one and not widely known as you have learned. I think it is part of the tradition of falling and woods work and I don't like to see that stuff disappear. Some of us have to carry these things forward and I am happy to do that. There is this thing you keep hearing that as pulp said above this tooth form dulls easy. Yu see I just have not found that yet. All teeth dull in dirty wood or when you hit rocks or barbed wire, but mine don't seem to be any worse than any others I have tried. Maybe I don't cut enough, maybe my wood is different, maybe i am just a dolt and easy to please. All I know is what works for me. I did some research and made a comment in another thread around here that I can't find wherein I found a document from Oregon wherein they state this issue of easy dulling and I postulate as to why they would write that.
There is a ton of information here about square filing with very good links to some instruction. Use the search engine, make a pot of coffee, take a Sunday morning,  and have at it. I have had a lot of fun getting good at this method, but I am lot being paid by the ton, or have a skidder operator staring me down waiting for a hitch. It's a little like watching these guys that do timber framing which I am in awe of. They make a plan, take the time needed, and produce beauty. They may have all the right tools, but there are few shortcuts when it comes to skill and experience. I wish I could do that, but I can't (yet).
@lxskllr I thought about it (making a jig) for a glancing moment when I was first learning. The file goes at a fairly sharp (compared to round) angle to the bar and any jig you make is going to be cumbersome. Also, the MOST critical feature is where the corner of the file breaks out on the corner of the tooth. This must be right on every tooth or it won't cut right makes a poor chip, and dulls quickly. I don't know if you could replace this with a jig. As I have worked as a designer in the past, I looked at how something like that would be for a user to carry and use, how much interest there would be, whether sales would justify design, prototyping, test, modification, marketing studies, patents, production costs, etc and all of a sudden I had a headache and it was no longer fun to sharpen my chain in peace and quiet. I purged the thought from my head. I am pretty much ensconced in the 'grumpy old man phase' of my life (and ding well with it, thank you) where I do things the way I want, when I want, and don't really care what others think. As long as I harm no one, I should be left to my own. If someone asks for help I will give it. If they don't want my help, I will leave them alone. In that vein, I think if folks want to square file, they should put in the time and practice to learn the right way, just as tens of thousands of others have done before them. If I did it, they can too. After all, I may be old, but I am still a Greenhorn  when it comes to a lot of things, so I am still learning and I don't think I will break that habit until they are shoveling dirt in my face.

[EDIT: @tacomatodd Search for 'square chain' and you will get plenty of good hits. Also, I found the thread with the comment I mentioned above, ironically it was YOUR thread, found here: Chain life n file type in Chainsaws ]
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

lxskllr

I'm /almost/ curious about square ground chain, but don't want to go back to square(Hah!) one with my sharpening. I do a competent job with a round file, and have room to improve, but I cut a lot of trash; at least at this time. I don't think even a quality square grind would benefit me, much less my starter attempts at getting it right. Add in the extra hassle of buying supplies, I think that'll be something for the future, or maybe never.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: lxskllr on February 17, 2019, 09:30:36 AM
I'm /almost/ curious about square ground chain, but don't want to go back to square(Hah!) one with my sharpening. I do a competent job with a round file, and have room to improve, but I cut a lot of trash; at least at this time. I don't think even a quality square grind would benefit me, much less my starter attempts at getting it right. Add in the extra hassle of buying supplies, I think that'll be something for the future, or maybe never.
I hear ya. It took me a few years to finally get around to trying it, mostly because all I could find was online info and that is no way to learn something like this. Then I met a fella who could teach me and did all his chains that way. He was in fact pleased that I was really interested and gave me a solid 20 minutes of instruction and did a few sample teeth for me to model on. That was all I needed. I had read all the negative opinions about the difficulty, but I find it is easier and faster for me, with just one file to carry. A lot of guys said they had to ruin 3 chains before they got one right and stuff like that, which turned me off. Then one day I decided to see for myself. [Insert witty line here about trying something once and never going back.] :)
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

TACOMATODD

Gentle folks, men & women, as always, you have been a WEALTH of information. Thank you. I will continue with my round filing way of life. " Keeping It Sharp! "
Trying harder everyday

Mean Dean

I have been doing an OK job at hand sharpening for 40 years. Last month I bought Harbor Freight $30 ($25 after coupon) sharpener and got excellent and fast results the first time I used it. I ordered some more loops of chain instead of files. 

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