Ok I have Been searching FF but can't find

motohed · December 16, 2009, 04:39:41 PM

I have been in this business for quite sometime ,and I understand the whole transport theory of firewood ,as to keep infestation of different insects etc from traveling . What I don't get is that the logs I sell , which come from the same area as the firewood . I mean , I derive the firewood from the tops of the very logs I ship right . So I would think that at some point the logshave to be treated with something or am I wrong

Rocky_Ranger · December 16, 2009, 04:57:46 PM

I guess it depends on what pest you are referring; most pests can't live once the logs are peeled (or are not considered an major threat), but if the logs are being shipped "green" there should be no difference in quarantine regs. But, once again, it depends on the pest...........

motohed · December 16, 2009, 05:08:50 PM

Quote from: Rocky_Ranger on December 16, 2009, 04:57:46 PM
I guess it depends on what pest you are referring; most pests can't live once the logs are peeled (or are not considered an major threat), but if the logs are being shipped "green" there should be no difference in quarantine regs. But, once again, it depends on the pest...........

I understand your point , but it is still being transported with pest, which could lead to losing them in transport . I guess I am being picky , but I would hate to add to there territory .

beenthere · December 16, 2009, 05:21:03 PM

Not sure I understand what you mean by "the whole transport theory of firewood"

Care to elaborate?

If you are talking the quarantine on firewood because of EAB, then I feel there is no justification for using firewood as the whipping-boy. But they (Gov't, etc) needed to do something to make it look like they were doing something, and restricting firewood movement was the only solution. My opinion, and haven't seen or read anything that has changed that - yet.

And no way will they (Gov't, etc) are going to quarantine logs and pulp wood moving about. That would be a overboard. IMO

Tom · December 16, 2009, 05:28:56 PM

http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/bnatres/forest/urbanfor.htm
The link above is a Rhode Island Division of Forestry link where you might find the answer. I was looking for the equivelant of a County Forester, but couldn't find one. These people should be able to answer your question if anyone could because the set their own rules for the State as well as follow Federal law.

The main Division of Forestry link is
http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/bnatres/forest/index.htm
and will allow you to find some of the other departments in the division.

motohed · December 16, 2009, 05:43:31 PM

Quote from: beenthere on December 16, 2009, 05:21:03 PM
Not sure I understand what you mean by "the whole transport theory of firewood"

Care to elaborate?

If you are talking the quarantine on firewood because of EAB, then I feel there is no justification for using firewood as the whipping-boy. But they (Gov't, etc) needed to do something to make it look like they were doing something, and restricting firewood movement was the only solution. My opinion, and haven't seen or read anything that has changed that - yet.

And no way will they (Gov't, etc) are going to quarantine logs and pulp wood moving about. That would be a overboard. IMO

I am talking about validity of firewood transport posing more danger in infestation than log transport. It makes no real common sense . I understand the regulations and try to stay up to date on all regulations in the north eastern USA . I totally agree that it would cripple logging and commercial commerce as we know it , never mind the export trade .

motohed · December 16, 2009, 05:55:37 PM

Quote from: Tom on December 16, 2009, 05:28:56 PM
http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/bnatres/forest/urbanfor.htm
The link above is a Rhode Island Division of Forestry link where you might find the answer. I was looking for the equivelant of a County Forester, but couldn't find one. These people should be able to answer your question if anyone could because the set their own rules for the State as well as follow Federal law.

The main Division of Forestry link is
http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/bnatres/forest/index.htm
and will allow you to find some of the other departments in the division.

Thanks Tom but I was referring to the firewood and EAB issue . I mean they think this is answer to stop these or any other pest for that from adding to there traveling . I mean look at what the Gypsy moth infestation has caused , these things need to be stopped not overlooked . Believe me I am in no way trying to stop or do I want to hurt what we do we are stewards of the land that needs to be protected . I have been trying research over the couple of day what the government has planned ,to help fight this ,or any other insect etc. from killing large numbers of tree species .

sprucebunny · December 16, 2009, 06:05:47 PM

We have been subject to quarentine of white pine logs ( and other softwoods) along the Maine/NH border. I don't remember the bug that caused it but logs were not allowed to leave the county.

Frickman · December 16, 2009, 06:11:38 PM

The big reason for the firewood quarantine on account of the emarald ash borer is to prevent the general public from unknowingly spreading the borer. Someone's ash tree in the back yard dies so they take the wood to their camp two hours away and end up spreading it to a new area. The folks issuing the quarantine figure that industry professionals have enough knowledge about the various pests to voluntarily not move infected wood. They figure we know the difference between ash and other species and will leave the ash on the landing and maybe saw it on site.

Tom · December 16, 2009, 06:15:45 PM

I understand. Your question was rhetorical in nature, eh? I suppose that you are right about the possibility of the pest, like EAB, going with any part of the tree. I've wondered, myself, how a quarantine worked when there were accept ions. I think that most of the failures of quarantine are when the public ignores the rules and transports diseased wood anyway. Some pests are in the leaves, so the log is OK. Some pests are in the bark, so a log, or firewood, containing no bark is OK. It still seems a bit iffy.

In the Southeast, we are having a problem with Laurel wilt. It is killing Red Bays by the hundreds of acres and traveling many miles a year. Quarantining the wood doesn't do much good when the beetle that carries the infestation can fly in the wind. I don't know that there have been any studies on this beetle yet but AEB was said to be limited to a specific range until it was found out of the range. I think they used that to help define the quarantined areas.

I still recommend that you speak with one of the State Foresters and get the straight skinny from him/her.
If there is one thing we citizens don't do it is utilize the strengths provided by the Government. It is two-fold detrimental, in that we don't get the official info because we are talking amongst ourselves;and the Foresters become complacent because they feel that their position and efforts are wasted. Just asking them a question will make them Beam with a smile.

It's by that token that I encourage people to visit their Forestry headquarters, visit their Forests and brag a little on their Rangers and Foresters. When was the last time that you saw a State Forest campsite touted with pictures in a forum or seen pictures posted of county foresters at work or other Forestry employees building cabins, walkways, etc. in the State or Federal forests?

If you get the story from them, you can then tell us. If you ask us the question, you will only get an opinion.

Ron Wenrich · December 16, 2009, 06:18:19 PM

Are you referring to the public broadcasts that tell you not to transport firewood? I've heard them, and they are geared more to homeowners than they are to the industry. I think they are using the shotgun approach, since many weekend woodcutters can't tell one tree type from another and don't know if their area is quarantined or not. The majority of these cutters don't cut sawtimber for anything other than firewood.

The industry should be aware if they're in a quarantined area, and what species are affected. We freely transport veneer quality logs from PA to Canada (their trucks), NY, IN, OH, and SC. We aren't in a quarantine area for EAB but are for gypsy moth. There are no restrictions or inspections by government on industry. So, the bugs are going to be transported by us if they're there.

When it comes to oversea shipments, we need to have a government inspector look at our loads of oak. They look to see if there is too many egg cases of gypsy moth. Too much and we have to debark. We are loading container loads of tulip poplar and there are no restrictions or inspections. We've sent about 15 loads in the past week and a half.

Koppers is requiring that there is no bark on the ties. They claim its bug related, but its really about treating.

Shotgun · December 16, 2009, 06:57:09 PM

Here's a URL for the Michigan Emerald Ash Borer Quarantine if you're interested in taking a look at it.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDA_EAB_Quarantine_WhereAs_111851_7.pdf

Michigan tried diligently to prevent the spread, but there are many, many factors that impact the development, implementation and enforcement of any quarantine. It's easy to be critical. One needs to walk a few miles in the shoes of a regulatory agency that is dealing with Mother Nature (plus economics, politicians, industries, private homeowners, budgets, weather factors, a variety of means of transportation, lack of initial availability of data on life cycles of exotic pests, lack of predators, perhaps a number of other unknowns, etc.) At least EAB is host species specific. The gypsy moth is not host specific.

motohed · December 16, 2009, 07:00:24 PM

I understand the firewood issue . I actually own a campground also . I had already imposed a ban on firewood that wasn't produced locally . Looking at this on the larger scale , IE professional firewood operations. I have seen advertisements for tree length from many non local sources , Ie CT,RI MA ,NY,VT,NH ME etc . None of my business , but still fact . My source for adds , the northern logger magazine. I understand we need to police are selves. I have tried to search forestry and pest control on a federal level to see what their approach is on pest control of these insects . In other words what is the government doing for us other than quarantines , or along with quarantines . I have to much free time as I just had a total hip replacement . I was just wondering if anyone had looked into this already. Oh by the way I love the magazine .

Tom · December 16, 2009, 07:09:58 PM

motohed · December 16, 2009, 07:25:32 PM

Quote from: Tom on December 16, 2009, 07:09:58 PM
We have actually had people from the program make posts here in reference to EAB. Searching for EAB should find it. I'll go look. There hasn't been too much lately, I think because the beetle got out of the bag. :-\

Thanks Tom I would like to think that our government would be diligent in looking to protect our forest from dying ,or better yet at least let harvest of dying trees be harvested maybe this would lower the number of the insect population .

SwampDonkey · December 16, 2009, 07:38:23 PM

I posed a question to the Feds about EAB quarantine on a radio show via email. What were they doing to stop the possibility of it getting into NB. They said they had a quarantine area up near Montreal, the closest so far to NB. But, I said why not do spot inspections for firewood coming in, just like checking for licenses and insurance. Don't have to stop the flow of traffic, check every 5th camper for instance. Heck it's just a drive through province here, so I doubt it would disrupt anyone's plans in NB too harshly. All they could respond with was the quarantine area. I guess it's just not as important as auto insurance. :-\

Rocky_Ranger · December 16, 2009, 08:24:42 PM

Our EAB is log specific - they don't want any shipments coming in no matter what the product. One of our entomologists put the fear of God in some of the companies as to liability, still doesn't stop it all. Sooner or later if we get an exotic in here (any species) it will spread to the host range.

Ironwood · December 16, 2009, 08:45:51 PM

I talked to the permit issuing officer for my part of Pa. (certified EAB killing temps for dunnage and firewood) The ONLY thing quarentined was firewood. I was seemingly able to move ANY other type of wood I wanted to. I asked this, as I was moving what APPEARED to be "white woods" like ash and was concerned abut being stopped and questioned by uneducated officers of the law, I had maple and box alder on the trailer. He said as long as it was kilned (in my non certified kiln, non supervised by anyone but me) then it was ok. As far as Firewood being the whipping boy, I'd say your dead on :

IMHO

Ironwood

Wudman · December 16, 2009, 10:34:11 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 16, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
The industry should be aware if they're in a quarantined area, and what species are affected. We freely transport veneer quality logs from PA to Canada (their trucks), NY, IN, OH, and SC. We aren't in a quarantine area for EAB but are for gypsy moth. There are no restrictions or inspections by government on industry. So, the bugs are going to be transported by us if they're there.

Quote

Ron's response above is one of the issues that surfaces from state to state. There is a federal law that is administered by USDA APHIS that prohibits the transport of materials from a quarantine area. USDA does not enforce these regulations in a consistent manner. I am in a gypsy moth quarantine area. Green forest products are supposed to be inspected and certified to be pest free before leaving a quarantine area. We ship product south and about 10 years ago we had a truck stopped as it entered North Carolina. It did not have the appropriate documentation for gypsy moth inspection. The truck was impounded. To that point, there had been no enforcement of the law and in reality, no knowledge of the law. It all changed with that impoundment. Now, all of our loggers are trained in gypsy moth inspections. Each load headed out of the quarantine area has an inspection certificate.

In our global economy, we have to do something to stop the transportation of forest pests. Dutch elm disease, chestnut blight, Sirex wood wasp, EAB, hemlock wooly adelgid, gypsy moth, fire ants.....these are just a few pests that have had devastating effects on the landscape. We can't afford to wipe out or forests; at the rate we are going, only sweetgum will be left in another hundred years.

Wudman

Ron Wenrich · December 17, 2009, 05:31:07 AM

Who does your inspections? Our exports are done by the USDA, and there is a fee charged. And, you have to wait until they can fit you in their schedule.

I believe there is no inspection needed if you are moving your logs within the quarantine zone.

I found this list of things to be inspected on the Wisconsin website:

* Logs, posts, pulpwood, bark and bark products
* Nursery stock
* Christmas trees
* Outdoor Household Articles (OHAs)
* Mobile homes and associated items

I wonder how many of those get inspected.

SwampDonkey · December 17, 2009, 05:44:27 AM

The Asian beetle that is quarantined in areas of NS is on a voluntary basis by industry. It will get here eventually because self regulation never works when it gets in the way of business.

Ironwood · December 17, 2009, 07:01:38 AM

Ron,

Nothing on there about wood slabs. :

Guess they forgot about those

Ironwood

ford62783 · December 17, 2009, 08:09:09 AM

i see what u mean but a valid point is that green log length firewood should be treated a any other green log or pulp wood if i understand it right after a few diffrent searches then i assume they r talking about dry firewood not in log length if i am mistaken please correct me but its a weird law that u can ship green logs and pulp wood but not fire wood

motohed · December 17, 2009, 08:30:25 AM

Quote from: Wudman on December 16, 2009, 10:34:11 PM
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 16, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
The industry should be aware if they're in a quarantined area, and what species are affected. We freely transport veneer quality logs from PA to Canada (their trucks), NY, IN, OH, and SC. We aren't in a quarantine area for EAB but are for gypsy moth. There are no restrictions or inspections by government on industry. So, the bugs are going to be transported by us if they're there.

Quote

Ron's response above is one of the issues that surfaces from state to state. There is a federal law that is administered by USDA APHIS that prohibits the transport of materials from a quarantine area. USDA does not enforce these regulations in a consistent manner. I am in a gypsy moth quarantine area. Green forest products are supposed to be inspected and certified to be pest free before leaving a quarantine area. We ship product south and about 10 years ago we had a truck stopped as it entered North Carolina. It did not have the appropriate documentation for gypsy moth inspection. The truck was impounded. To that point, there had been no enforcement of the law and in reality, no knowledge of the law. It all changed with that impoundment. Now, all of our loggers are trained in gypsy moth inspections. Each load headed out of the quarantine area has an inspection certificate.

In our global economy, we have to do something to stop the transportation of forest pests. Dutch elm disease, chestnut blight, Sirex wood wasp, EAB, hemlock wooly adelgid, gypsy moth, fire ants.....these are just a few pests that have had devastating effects on the landscape. We can't afford to wipe out or forests; at the rate we are going, only sweetgum will be left in another hundred years.

Wudman

I am glad to see that we all are doing are part , to help stop the spread of these and all pests that are destroying timber . I was wondering if the government was going to start spraying for the EAB , as they did in the 1970's for gypsy moth. I can't remember if they were state by state regulated or not . I guess we are all on the same page about these problems , I would like to hear from some other people in different state to see what is being done at a state level for pest control in forestry . I have gotten some very good responcses .

Thanks Scott

motohed · December 17, 2009, 08:42:54 AM

Quote from: ford62783 on December 17, 2009, 08:09:09 AM
i see what u mean but a valid point is that green log length firewood should be treated a any other green log or pulp wood if i understand it right after a few diffrent searches then i assume they r talking about dry firewood not in log length if i am mistaken please correct me but its a weird law that u can ship green logs and pulp wood but not fire wood

HI FORD
I have had to be house bound for a while with a total hip replacement . So I figured , I would look into what was being done on a federal level to stop the infestation of EAB ,and other insects of late ,it seems like some of the quarentines , pick more on firewood than logs etc . Everything else is at best in question .