Tuning a Lucas Mill Slabbing attachment

Guner Tautrim · November 08, 2012, 10:14:44 PM

Would love some advice regarding getting the Lucas Mill slabbing attachment (not the dedicated) to cut true with out diving. I know about the level the bar but am still having trouble. Thanks :-\

shelbycharger400 · November 09, 2012, 08:56:21 PM

I dont have a lucas But I do have a csm, 36 in bar with a 17 hp kohler.
Dip and dive issues are The chain! It has to be tensioned properly close to that of a standard chain saw and if you can pull it out 1/2 inch its too loose. If you cant pull it by hand its too tight. Now if it is properly tensioned check the chain. The chain has to be sharp and they have to be within a few thousandths of each other in length. I have only had it happen a few times and now I stop and resharp when you have to use excessive pressure. You also might notice a crown in your milled boards prior to the "chop" or visually see the bar bend up. Now, chain grind is also important. If you grind it at 75 deg, its going to try to jump ship! 55, and 10 to 15. don't waste your time with the aditional 10 deg included angle , I set my rakers at 25 to 30 thou. I made my own "hyper skip" , I cut the legs off, but kept the "extra" rakers.
I will give credit to logboy, he showed me the light on the proper grinds and some of the issues somewhere on the forum.

terrifictimbersllc · November 09, 2012, 09:40:31 PM

Early on I had some diving/climbing where bar was not parallel to the rails. Then I solved that with a routine alignment I use every time I put on the slabber. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,53100.msg765853.html#msg765853

After that, I found some diving/climbing was due only to not having uniform top plate angle due to careless hand filing (I use 15 degrees, and now every other sharpening do it on the grinder). I always use 75 degree angle,up from horizontal, for hardwoods and it works well for me. Also I am hooked on Oregon Harvester chain (404/063, stamped with 16 on the drive link). That chain, modified into a 5 skip sequence, and sharpened as I describe here, will actually skim cut and I have never had it dive or climb. I cut hardwoods up to 5 feet wide.

sigidi · November 10, 2012, 05:00:40 PM

Quote from: Guner Tautrim on November 08, 2012, 10:14:44 PM
Would love some advice regarding getting the Lucas Mill slabbing attachment (not the dedicated) to cut true with out diving. I know about the level the bar but am still having trouble. Thanks :-\

I've had the slabber on my 6-18 and both my model 10's mate, do you use more than one chain? if so does it dive on all the chains or just some of the chains? if it does it on some chains and not others then its your sharpening, if it does it on all chains its yourt slabber alignment.

Also you can make the slabber dive by pushing too hard, kind of choking the chain, or another common issue I see from other lucas owners is they push too hard up on the push bar when slabbing, I give a nice even steady push on the bottom rail of the carraige frame with my thigh and let the chain eat its way through - at the moment I have one of 4 chains doin a bit of a dive of about 6mm by the end of a 3m log - so that one has been painted bright pink and will get much closer attention at sharpening time later today, the other 3 chains are cutting nice and true to the point where after the slab is removed I roll the carriage back and the chain brushes off the sawdust.

Meadows Miller · November 10, 2012, 06:07:34 PM

Gday

Id be pretty sure its the sharpening causing the dramas which it is in most chain slabbing applications mate . That being said quickest way is whack a stait edge on the bar with no chain on it clamp it down and take a measurement on the front and back to the bottom of the mill frame should be an even measurement ;) . another thing is dressing the bar has the bar got any wear or a lip on the working edge as this can cause dramas too just like a chainsaw or csm .
Lucas dose a top job at the factory to make sure everything on the mill and any attachemets are spot on and the only dramas i have had in the past have been my own making

With hand filing keep in mind that you naturaly lead with your dominant hand left or rite so keep a keen eye on your filing And Keep us posted Mate

Regards Chris

Kayler · November 10, 2012, 10:50:00 PM

I am wondering what the consensus is with hyper skip vs full comp chain with regards to bar wondering, also what about when the tooth is almost to the end of its life. I have a hyper skip chain that is near the end and I can not get it to cut right. The grind tolerances seem good but it is un-happpy. My other chains work great.

sigidi · November 11, 2012, 04:40:04 PM

Kayler, toward the end of a chain any minor differences in sharpening are compounded by the amount of times its been sharpened, when they get older thats when you know if you can sharpen properly. If its toward the end of its life and playing up then give it the flick, but remember and try to make the next one better anohter thing I swear by is the Carlton filo-o-plate for setting the rakers on my slabber chain, just about the best you can get I reckon.

Chris is right about dressing the bar too, a worn bar will throw the chain off in the cut, but this will have a tendency to do it to all your chains

Guner Tautrim · November 12, 2012, 01:12:02 AM

My first post and i got to say: where have I been? Thank you all for your comments. I have much more to go on now. Tension of the chain and letting the chain do the work (don't push too hard) seem to be the most likely culprits at this time. I have been trying to get the "level across the bar to the frame" trick dialed in and just wasn't sure how precise I had to be. I am shimming the bar on one side with the thickness of a beer can shim. Thats got to be getting it *DanG close. I am at least within a sixteenth. As for sharpening I only use a bench top for my slabber chain and I go 10 degrees. I am using 2 chains that I alternate and both are sold or recommended by Lucas. These other chains you speak of maybe I should look into. Always trying to learn more. Thanks again all

sigidi · November 12, 2012, 04:02:37 AM

Guner, do both chains dive on their way through the log?
When tuning the slabbing bar on a lucas you should be albe to get it within 1mm using beer can shims

Keep us updated and feel free to ask more questions ;D

Guner Tautrim · November 12, 2012, 04:30:57 PM

Thanks Sigidi. With the new technique recommended in this conversation about how to level the bar (using the 2' level etc) I will be able to be more accurate. Yes both chains were diving. Also, and before I try this again, do you shim on the engine side? the oiler side? both? Thanks again. Plus would love to know your recommendation on chain and sharpening angle. Thanks. Guner

sigidi · November 12, 2012, 04:55:37 PM

Quote from: Guner Tautrim on November 12, 2012, 04:30:57 PM
Thanks Sigidi. With the new technique recommended in this conversation about how to level the bar (using the 2' level etc) I will be able to be more accurate. Yes both chains were diving. Also, and before I try this again, do you shim on the engine side? the oiler side? both? Thanks again. Plus would love to know your recommendation on chain and sharpening angle. Thanks. Guner

Guner, with 'tuning the bar' you need to check the oiler and engine end. I ended up doin my slabber attachment recently when I sold Bo and got Sparky, had to put 3 thicknesses of can in one end and 2 at the other end (actually this reminds me I lost my sprocket nut and have to order a couple replacements -normally I do a tricky thing with the shims to make the nut stay, but anyways) now the only reason mine runs off is my bad sharpening - I got this system for my 4 slabber chains, if they cut bad I hit 'em with paint when I take them off, then when I come to end of the day and do my chains at home I give the painted ones a bit more attention. If they are cutting nice and true, then I keep using them on the job until its done - touching them up as needed.

As for chain sharpening, I use 5 skip and 3 skip .404 chains. First time ever I bought a loop of chain for the slabber from a guy online and not Lucas recently

but it is still .404 with 3 skip. I sharpen using the Lucas jig and also only use hand files for chains. Quick side story - Last week I did a week's milling for a local tree lopping mob, he gave me one of his lads each day to tail out (each day a different one though!!!!) anyway they where all amazed how well my 395 cut compared to the saws they where using for work - only difference being they sharpened chain on a grinder and I sharpen with hand files... side story over and I sharpen using 10 deg's on the slabber, if you go to 5 deg's it will give the slab a much smoother finish but slow it down a touch, if you go to 15 deg's you will cut the slab a bit quicker but get a definite washboard on your slabs. If you are slabbing for yourself and have the means to clean them up easy - like the planer head, then punch out slabs on 15 deg's, if you don't have much in the way to dress the slabs then give 5 deg's a run you will be surprised how much the finish changes with that small difference in angle. I also only use the carlton file-o-plate to set my rakers and use the second hole to keep the rakers nice and low - my Sparky likes to chew timber ;D

Guner Tautrim · November 12, 2012, 11:39:08 PM

Allan thanks a million. So since you sharpen by hand might I ask how you manage the super long chain? You use a vice and... And field sharpening? So you think the desk top electric gizmo heats up the tips too much? I've wondered about that. It sure is easy to get them too hot and it defiantly effects the metal.

sigidi · November 13, 2012, 12:15:35 AM

Guner, I use the Lucas sharpening jig nowadays, but on my 6-18 I used to sharpen on the slabber

but if you can make one or buy one I'd strongly recommend it. Check out my "Lucas mill questions" thread on here to see how I sharpen an also store my chains easy and neat without having to wrestle with them to undo them.
In my early days before really got into milling I had a chain sharpened at local saw shop, all my teeth came back blue and I paid 2/3 the cost of a new chain for the pleasure >:( suffice to say that has turned me off electric bench grinder type sharpeners.

terrifictimbersllc · November 13, 2012, 07:22:37 AM

I carry about 15 chains 5 skip and 8 3 skip. I hand file if "normal dull" once or twice, and grind once after that, or if hitting something. A 5 skip chain only has 14 pairs of cutters and is not a chore to sharpen. Recently I started using a "Dinasaw Cyclone" ABN grinding wheel (ABN is a synthetic diamond equivalent) from bailey's. This wheel does not overheat the metal, nor does it change its shape or throw off wheel dust.

Guner Tautrim · November 13, 2012, 11:39:31 PM

Hey Allan I searched for the "Lucas Mill Questions" you spoke of but got lost in cyber land looking for it. Any chance you could add a link to what you were talking about. I want to see your "storing or transporting" of the super long chains. Thanks.

sigidi · November 14, 2012, 03:25:00 AM

Guner, I've been trying to put otgether a little Lucas mill thread for guys to see/ask anything to do with 'em, as you can probalby tell I love 'em ;D 8) ;)

Take a look here https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60602.0.html

logboy · November 21, 2012, 01:06:38 AM

I run the Model 8 dedicated. In my experience, 9 times out of 10 climbing or diving is caused by a chain that needs to be sharpened. That being said, if you are having problems there are a few things I'd check before I got to shimming the bar.

- Make sure the rails are parallel. When I set up I use a level on the powerhead to make sure both uprights are parallel. Make sure the rails are cranked up a few inches before you do this so the uprights chains are tight.
- A sharp chain with consistent raker height. I run mine at .050, but with a recent experience in real wide pine and the inability to remove the sawdust, causing climbing and diving, I'm rethinking it for that specific purpose. Use a grinder to make sure the teeth are sharpened exactly the same.
-Chain tension. If it sounds like your chain is constantly slapping against the bar, chances are its too loose. If the engine struggles to get up to speed or the chain heats up instantly, it may be too tight.

logboy · November 21, 2012, 01:08:16 AM

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on November 13, 2012, 07:22:37 AM
I carry about 15 chains 5 skip and 8 3 skip. I hand file if "normal dull" once or twice, and grind once after that, or if hitting something. A 5 skip chain only has 14 pairs of cutters and is not a chore to sharpen. Recently I started using a "Dinasaw Cyclone" ABN grinding wheel (ABN is a synthetic diamond equivalent) from bailey's. This wheel does not overheat the metal, nor does it change its shape or throw off wheel dust.

How do you like the wheel so far? Is it worth the money? If so I'm going to order one.

logboy · November 21, 2012, 01:58:23 AM

Quote from: shelbycharger400 on November 09, 2012, 08:56:21 PM
I dont have a lucas But I do have a csm, 36 in bar with a 17 hp kohler.
Dip and dive issues are The chain! It has to be tensioned properly close to that of a standard chain saw and if you can pull it out 1/2 inch its too loose. If you cant pull it by hand its too tight. Now if it is properly tensioned check the chain. The chain has to be sharp and they have to be within a few thousandths of each other in length. I have only had it happen a few times and now I stop and resharp when you have to use excessive pressure. You also might notice a crown in your milled boards prior to the "chop" or visually see the bar bend up. Now, chain grind is also important. If you grind it at 75 deg, its going to try to jump ship! 55, and 10 to 15. don't waste your time with the aditional 10 deg included angle , I set my rakers at 25 to 30 thou. I made my own "hyper skip" , I cut the legs off, but kept the "extra" rakers.
I will give credit to logboy, he showed me the light on the proper grinds and some of the issues somewhere on the forum.

Thanks for the credit. I've had a few people message me lately looking for chain answers, but I've been out traveling for work while the mill is locked in the barn. Right before I left I was on a saw job and smoked the nose sprocket and welded it to the bar. I'm upgrading it to the bearing setup whenever work slows down enough that I can breathe and get back to the mill and catch up on saw jobs. When I catch up on things in a couple weeks or so (hopefully) I'll do a big thread on sharpening the chains for the slabber.

terrifictimbersllc · November 21, 2012, 05:17:16 AM

Quote from: logboy on November 21, 2012, 01:08:16 AM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on November 13, 2012, 07:22:37 AM
I carry about 15 chains 5 skip and 8 3 skip. I hand file if "normal dull" once or twice, and grind once after that, or if hitting something. A 5 skip chain only has 14 pairs of cutters and is not a chore to sharpen. Recently I started using a "Dinasaw Cyclone" ABN grinding wheel (ABN is a synthetic diamond equivalent) from bailey's. This wheel does not overheat the metal, nor does it change its shape or throw off wheel dust.

How do you like the wheel so far? Is it worth the money? If so I'm going to order one.

No looking back. Wish I had it sooner. Worth it in terms of not worrying any more about the shape of the vitreous wheel, adjusting it during grinding a chain, and the dust it sends off. The one they call 3/16 is actually 4 mm not 5 mm which would be closer to 3/16, but it is fine for the 404 chain as well as for the 375 which is on my two most used chain saws.

Guner Tautrim · November 25, 2012, 12:50:32 PM

Logboy a thread on sharpening would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for the effort.Guner

logboy · November 26, 2012, 09:45:53 PM

It might be a couple weeks yet unless things magically clear up this week. Next week I'm supposed to be on the West Coast in Oregon. No rest for the weary, even with saw jobs waiting in the wings.

I will be taking my Lucas Slabber bar into a machine shop soon to be fitted for the nose bearing kit in place of the regular nose sprocket that seized on me a couple weeks ago. It costs more, but will last much longer and is much easier to maintain with just a bearing.