Foresters, what are the traits you value in loggers?

[BrandonTN]

The sibling thread to the Loggers one.  ;D

[Texas Ranger]

Honesty and reliability, the rest will come in time. Oh, yeah, they should know how to start a chainsaw.

[Gary_C]

Many loggers do not even carry a chainsaw anymore. And even if they do, it probably has been banging around in the back of the pickup so long it will not start anyway. How is that for honesty.  ;D

[Texas Ranger]

They had still better know how to handle one, it is the fine surgery end of logging, the heavy stuff is blunt trauma. 

[DanG]

I'm a little surprised that these two threads aren't getting more attention. ???  They look like good thoughtful questions from a very interested Forestry student, to me.

what about a logger's ability to understand and follow the BMP the Forester has prescribed?  What about his ability to field the appropriate equipment to get the job done promptly and efficiently? :P

[Jeff]

I'm a little surprised that these two threads aren't getting more attention. ???  They look like good thoughtful questions from a very interested Forestry student, to me

I'm sure they will, its just that they were started on the first day or three of deer season in uch of the north country.

[Texas Ranger]

DanG, all of that ends up the discretion of the forester, I don't use loggers that don't fill that bill.  The foresters job is to manage the job, and that includes the logger, if the logger doesn't want to cooperate, there is always another logger that will.  My contracts make that very firm.

[DanG]

Kinda fits with what I was saying, don't it?  If they don't fill the bill, you ain't lookin' for them. ;)  I just thought the question was more about how you tell if the logger can fill the bill or not, assuming you don't already know him.

Example:  If you need a road built a certain way because of environmental concerns, you would want to know that he has the equipment and personell to get it done.  I'm not talking about cooperation so much as about ability.

BTW, I'm not nitpicking here.  Just trying to stimulate some conversation.

[Sunfield Hardwood]

I get bid sheets for logging jobs that are page after page of demands and requirements. they go into the trash. I'm a sub contracter not your employee that needs threatend or punished to do quality work. that said, I always do a ethical job on my log sites, and work to satisfiy the forester and land owner, and take honor in doing a good job. I refer all new clients to the last land owner I have worked for, and am confident I will get a good referal. I know many feel that its impossible for the timber owner to get a fair shake unless a forester is involved, and I certainly have nothing against foresters,I work with  several very sucsessfully. but not all loggers are slackers or just waiting to take advantage or do shoddy work either

[Texas Ranger]

If your logging my job, you are under contract, that makes you a sub to me, and do the job my way.  Most of my loggers have been buying from me for 30 years or more, they know the rules, the fly by nighters that manage to get a job from me, for one reason or the other, don't stay long.  Around here loggers are a 50-50 bunch, half of em will do it right and the other half don't get hired for a managed sale. 

After 30 years or so I follow the successful loggers, and make accommodations.

[Ron Wenrich]

All I want is someone to do a professional job.  That means they respect the landowner's land and don't do a bunch of damage to the residual stand or the land.  They also pay their bills on time.  I don't like to run a baby sitting service.

After you've been in business for a little while, you'll know which ones to trust and which ones to skip.  Consultants usually cater to the good loggers. 

[Sunfield Hardwood]

after hearing and rehearing your opinions of loggers, and the way you deal with them, I'm surprised you do get the same loggers to work for you more than once, I have a higher regard for foresters than you do of loggers apparently.

[SwampDonkey]

Honesty.
Reliability.
Pays his crew on time.
Willing to learn, share information or discuss different approaches.
Know the markets and know how to buck for grade or willing to learn.
Respect the land and waterways.

[Texas Ranger]

I respect good loggers, I also investigate timber theft, and a timber thief is usually a logger.  Failure to understand the difference could be a character flaw.

[okie]

Not trying to get into a mix here but I have seen personally loggers that were Thieves with a capital T. A good friend of mine has several hundred wooded acres. In his area many signs were put up advertising "Walnut wanted, top prices paid".
My friend has more walnut than you can shake a stick at and called the number. The loggers came, cut 5 semi loads off of him and sent him a check after grading the logs for $900 dollars, He was quoted about 1000 per load.
He called the loggers and was told that his area produces very poor quality Walnut.
My friend has a nephew that is a forester and called him and his nephew felt he was being robbed and came to investigate. The nephew told Darrel to call the loggers back and he wanted to oversee the operation, He did just that and they cut an additional load from the same stand they previously cut only with the forester overseeing and received $1500 for that load on the spot from the same company.
I am not sure what the forester did or what strings he pulled but the next week Darrel receved a check in the mail for $5000 with a letter stating appologies because upon further inspection his walnut logs were of better quality than first thought.

Now I know that is one company and that dont make it the rule but...... when one company does that, it gives the whole profession a bad name.
I have no doubt there are many very very good loggers/ logging companies out there, but that one bad one makes the contracts a necessity and makes folks cast a skeptical eye on the good ones till proven otherwise. 

[Gary_C]

Failure to understand the difference could be a character flaw.

Difference between what?   

I also investigate timber theft, and a timber thief is usually a logger. 

Is that because it takes a chainsaw to be a timber thief? 

Without the chainsaw would a timber thief be a tree hugger with skid marks on the ground?

[Gary_C]

My friend has a nephew that is a forester and called him and his nephew felt he was being robbed and came to investigate.

It's a shame he did not call the forester for help before he got himself into trouble.  :

I also just read where a lady lost $400,000 to one of those Nigerian E-mail scams. I guess all of the internet should be blamed for that theft too.   

[Ron Wenrich]

Gotta agree with Gary.  I know some foresters who are a little short on ethics. 

[SwampDonkey]

I agree there are to. Also the ones that look down upon other fellow foresters because they happen to work for a certain company or government and their fellow foresters are making it on their own. That is very common. All the sudden because they work for someone else the guy working for himself lost his education and experience some how. Well, you get that feeling in conversations anyway. :

[Texas Ranger]

Some loggers cannot tell the difference between good logging and thieving, that is the difference, surprised you had to ask.

[DanG]

That's just a people thing, IMO.  Some people in general these days, seem to think it is perfectly ok to screw somebody else out of their money.  Loggers are just people.

Semi-related question:  What procedures do most Foresters use to select a logger for a particular sale?  Do you always take bids, or sometimes just call your favorite guy?  Can just anybody bid on sales, or do you just invite certain ones?  Does it always go to the highest bidder?

[Gary_C]

TR    I guess I just don't think the same as you. I dealt with a forester that constantly bad mouthed loggers and he was a cheat and liar. Some ten years before I dealt with him, he got suspended for two weeks without pay and I proved that he falsified a scale on my job.

But that does not mean that I believe you are a cheat and liar because you are a forester too.  :

[Texas Ranger]

DanG, I send bids to known good loggers and companies, the companies often sent the bid out to their loggers, so I get a mix of known and unknown loggers.  All my bids have in them "the land owner reserves the right to reject any and/or all bids", if I didn't send them a bid and they have no company ID, their bid is not accepted.

GaryC, the thieves I have managed to help send to jail were loggers, I have also helped send one forester to jail for fraud and theft.  Most of the time it is probation, restitution and a fine.  Usually the logger will steal enough loads to pay restitution and fines, so sooner or later we get them some cell time.

In one of these posts I said " there are foresters, and then there are foresters", foresters and loggers are interchangeable in the statement.

[Good Feller]

I'm a new forester,,, but I had a logger come inspect my first timber sale the other day.  He drove across ground that I specifically said not to in my timber sale notice. To top it off he left the gate WIDE open when he left.  Can you say IDIOT???  So, If you are an idiot, keep in mind that you won't get a sale notice again.  A trait I like in anyone,,,, no matter who you are, is some common sense/courtesy... 




 

[Gary_C]

Don I understand what you are saying, but believe you are wrong to use such a broad brush to paint loggers and other foresters as being dishonest. For one thing we do not have many problems in Minnesota so maybe, as I said on the other thread, this is just a Texas problem.

And also in Minnesota we have the MLEP that provides training and certification of loggers that has done a lot of good things to improve the image of the logging industry. They have now certified 51 logging companies as Master Loggers and and the remainder of the members are certified as Logging Professionals, myself included. All of these loggers value their reputation very highly and I can guarantee they are not crooks.

http://www.mlep.org/

[Gary_C]

Good Feller, speaking as a landowner, I would say that puts your logger in the same category as a hunter. Is that too broad of a brush to use?

[Good Feller]

You are right on Gary.  Hunters do it too.  It's a great way to lose permission,,,, letting all my cows out. Even if there isn't any cows in there you should put things back the way you found them.  

I can learn a lot about a man who forgets to close gates.  Either very forgetful,lazy, or just plain stupid. 

[Gary_C]

Here is the Code of Conduct that all MLEP members must agree to in order to be a member or Certified Logging Professional.

Code of Ethics for MLEP Logging Professionals
I, ____________________________, recognize that maintaining professionalism in logging requires maintaining a professional attitude and following a code of ethics, just as it is true in any other profession. By accepting the designation of "MLEP Logging Professional", I agree to maintain a professional attitude and abide by the following code of ethics.

For the MLEP Logging Professional, safety on the worksite is the number one priority. The MLEP Logging Professional abides by and actively promotes safety standards.

MLEP Logging Professionals take pride in their profession, perform all activities in a responsible and professional manner and encourage others to do the same.

The MLEP Logging Professional is aware of and complies with all laws and regulations relating to the logging profession.

The MLEP Logging Professional will not perform any service for which he or she is not qualified, and will advise clients to seek other professional assistance when appropriate.

The MLEP Logging Professional will provide services that are specifically related to the objectives and requirements of his or her clients.

The MLEP Logging Professional will not malign the work, reputation, or business of other professional loggers.

The MLEP Logging Professional recognizes that landowners, wood buyers, and other professionals are part of the forest products industry and cooperates with affected parties to maintain high standards of professionalism.

The MLEP Logging Professional will strive to increase his or her knowledge of and skills within the logging profession.

[Sunfield Hardwood]

Ranger, I agree with Gary_C, according to you anybody not lucky enough or blessed to be approved by you is a thief, so with that line of reasoning anybody who owns a gun is a terrorist, or owns a chain saw is a logger. How's the view up there on your pedestal. I thought the point of a forester was to get the best money for a customer as well as oversee the job. I would think by limiting your jobs to the select few you have graced, you would not be doing the best service for your customer, or do you tell them it's my way or the highway as well.

[beenthere]

This thread is sure deviating from the Forestry Forum way of discussing things.  : :

My opinion, but it is not comfortable to see it happen.

[Jeff]

I agree and I don't like it one little bit.

I might add that I have Known TR going on 9 years and ya'll are reading way more into his thinking and statements then what I know is there. Don likes to stir the pot sometoimes just to see what might come to the top.  I dont like what I see floating to thbe top this time via the attitudal posting .  Everyone of you know how to discuss things without resorting to this.

Please dont make me waste my hunting time poking these stupid little buttons on this phone to tell you something you all already know full well.

[SwampDonkey]

Seems to be a few inferences being made and taken as insults out of someone's shared personal experiences. All of a sudden benign statements are becoming grounds for defensive arguments. I guess it's easy sometimes to interpret someone's expressions negatively and feel threatened if one's profession becomes topic of forum discussions that drift toward negative life experiences with those in the profession.  :-\

[Ron Wenrich]

DanG

I think a lot depends on the forester and the sale.  Really nice wood usually gets marketed out to a select crowd via the bidding process.  Not all loggers are invited to bid on consultant's sales.  There's always a good deal of interest from competent loggers on good timber that is well marked and well scaled.

Small sales and lower quality wood may not have much interest.  Consultants will go directly to a logger if its something they specialize in.  For example, firewood quality sales have a much smaller following than veneer quality sales.

But, there are some consultants that take some of their marked timber directly to a mill or logger.  We get that all the time.  Most of it could be bid out, but the foresters like to feed some of the mills.  It turns a quick buck.   

I always felt that if it could be bid out, that was the best process.   It gets real embarrassing when a landowner was told it was to be bid out, and later finds out it was fed to a mill.  I saw one consulting outfit that had to squirm pretty hard when an opposing mill didn't get the opportunity to bid and let the landowner know about it. 

[Texas Ranger]

We in Texas have professional loggers, and a loggers association, that sends out training and certificates for course completion.  Any logger can take it and become certified, kind of like buying a degree through the mail.

Theft is not particular to Texas, as far as I know, every state has it that grows trees, and most states have laws pertaining to it. 

I agree with Jeff and others, too much is being read into my comments.  Theft occurs, the thief is usually a logger, some foresters fall to greed, some companies have both.  I don't paint them all, there are great, good, indifferent, and lousy loggers, same with foresters.  The longest prison term that I know of in Texas has been 9 years, conviction after 3 years of gathering evidence, he was an excellent logger, just no ethics.

Like or dislike my comments on loggers, my job would be finished if I did not use and keep loggers happy.  But, they do the job right, according to the contract, or don't come to the table again.  To many cash on the barrel head loggers, short counts, redirected loads, deals with the buyer, etc., I am supposed to help my client by knowing this.

Not a hard decision to keep a book of the good ones.

Having done this for 40 years now, I think I know more than one bad logger, and one bad forester, I know a whole lot more of guys doing the best they can to get the job done according to the contract. 

Those in the business will understand that and not think of a smear.

[Sunfield Hardwood]

I am in the business and still don,t agree with all of your comments but if they were just for entertainment, I now realize I should'ent have taken them seriously

[pappy19]

When I was in the pure logging/forestry business, we had good loggers and bad loggers. The good one's were real good and the bad one were real bad. The good ones respected their logging job and did everything right. The bad loggers tried to get away with everything in the book. If you let them get away with bad practices, bad on you. I shut down a number of logging jobs due to poor practices until they agreed to straighten out or they were in default. If they were in default for 30 days, I could rebid what was left and charge the original logger for any damages.

Now that I am more into land management for utility companies including easements for pipelines and power lines, the rule of thumb for contractors is "if you don't get the contract, you can't screw 'um", so one has got to be on their toes to keep contractors in line with the contract specifications. It is the contractors right to try and get away with as much as the inspector will let them get away with. Can't blame them for trying. If you are an inspector or timber sale administrator, you better make the logger take care of business. If you befriend them and he knows he can get away with poor practices, then it will be on your plate and your reputation. Better to be tough than to be known as a pansy.

[okie]

My friend has a nephew that is a forester and called him and his nephew felt he was being robbed and came to investigate.

It's a shame he did not call the forester for help before he got himself into trouble.  :

I also just read where a lady lost $400,000 to one of those Nigerian E-mail scams. I guess all of the internet should be blamed for that theft too.   

I aint sayin its right, just that it happens that way. And as far as him calling is nephew before hand, He should'nt have had to.
Ought not take offense here, These things happen, its just that when they happen it gives a black eye to the whole profession. How many times have you heard generalized statements about Real estate agents ( my wife was one for a few years), or car salesmen. Not all are good and the bad ones give em all a generalized bad rep.

[Gary_C]

I aint sayin its right, just that it happens that way. And as far as him calling is nephew before hand, He should'nt have had to.

You also shouldn't have to take the keys out of your car, let alone lock the doors.

You shouldn't have to drive defensively either.

Right or wrong, problems don't always just happen. They are allowed to happen by careless people. Why would anyone voluntarily let a stranger loose in their woods and tell them to take what they want and give me whatever you think it's worth? Even if it is not a stranger, he probably will not tally or grade in your favor. Is an unfavorable tally from a friend considered theft also?

Logging is a tough business. Like the lions and wolves, loggers sometimes have to prey on the weak. That too is a natural way and "just happens that way." And the natural way is far more harsh than the loss of some money.

But I choose to not do business that way because I see other opportunities. If I did not have the other opportunities, I don't know what I would do, do you?   ???

[Stephen Alford]

For me traits translates to variables. The forester/logger/landowner generally function with different equations and not all the variables are the same nor are the solutions which determine success. For a job to work  they have to have a few things in common but not necessarily all. In my experience what has been of interest however is the event that occurs and triggers  the actual work. Here 90% of the land is owned by individuals some 16000 woodlots. The event can be anything from a death to a divorce or just plain wanting to intereact with the land for multiple reasons. This is the time to identify traits or variables. This is where experience comes into play for each of the stakeholders and a determination is made as to whether or not it can work for each. Once over this threshold good communication skills becomes the common denominator. Without it the result is usually the same. I am a forester who performs my own logging  so all I have to do is get along with the landowner. 

[woodtroll]

It just takes a few bad apples to make a whole basket look bad. A few bad loggers can taint a profession.
I feel sorry for loggers who are doing a great job,making a tough profession work.  They get generalized as thieves,
they are looked down upon by an ignorant public that thinks logging is bad, but still use their products. I could go on.
As a forester I look for an honest logger, who is capable to get a job done, and done right.
I work as a forester to have these same traits. I would think that is what my clients and the loggers I work with expect.

[BrandonTN]

As a forester I look for an honest logger, who is capable to get a job done, and done right.
I work as a forester to have these same traits.

What goes around, comes around. 


I respect the fact that loggers work as hard as they do.  Watching Ax-men helped me to see that.  ;D

[Brian Beauchamp]

It's my opinion that 99.9% of the loggers here on the Forestry Forum are honest and the other .1% are likely lurkers that do not post. I wish that were true elsewhere, but, as a consultant, I wish the same of my own profession as well. Anything I put in a contract is something that I have discussed with a landowner and determined to be a priority in their management goals and to protect their money and property resources. None of it is meant to be an insult; it's just the operational standard for the job. With that said, I try not to make it 'nitpicky', either, but the length of a prospectus alone sometimes may seem like too much. If a logger takes the time to look through and understand all of the information provided though, he will usually see that it is for his benefit as well as the landowner...volumes listed by species, diameter class, etc. so they can make an informed decision about their investment as well. Hopefully, that is what they get out of it rather than a listing of all the 'requirements' because those 'requirements' are usually just standard things like BMP's or maybe that the landowner wants the slash reduced below a certain level for aesthetics or wind-rowed, etc. We are mainly listing those things so that the logger may take them into consideration and reflect them in the bid price due to the extra time they may take performing those tasks. The problem I have ran into often is that loggers want to offer the same deal on every project...they take 2/3 of the mill price and the landowner gets the other 1/3...or some slight variation of such. They want to just take the thought out of it for some reason and will reject jobs rather than adjust their bid/BF price to reflect their desired profit. That is a very strange way to do business in my opinion, especially when it means taking a gap in income due to not working consistently. On the other end of the spectrum though, there is one logger with which I deal that tries so hard to give the landowner a good deal that he will often bid to where he is basically breaking even. I have consulted with some of my landowners at times to advise them that he is bidding too liberally. Some have decided to offer to take less as an act of good-faith. As hard working and honest as he is, he deserves to make a profit. Ultimately, the landowner is the one that I have the responsibility to look out for, but I hope the logger will use the information I gather for his benefit as well. It's not so much about 'keeping every logger from trying to rip the landowner off' as it is setting standards to work together to meet the landowner's objectives while protecting their assets.

To answer the original question of what I look for in a logger though...what I look for is professionalism...this includes honesty, reliability, being considerate of the landowner's objectives & desires and an extensive list of other things. Someone had said earlier that when they receive a long prospectus with a list of requirements and demands that it goes directly into the trash. I'll never say I work as hard as a logger, but we do put a lot into those documents. I ask of you, respectfully, not to see it as a doubt of your professionalism, but as a symbol of ours.

[Bow Saw]

    I can appreciate the valuable information provided here in this forum whether you are a  Forester or a Logger.  As a forest/landowner, reading here has been an eye opener as to what could possibly go wrong if one is unfortunate enough to experience your worst case scenerio.    Despite the fact that some of you were highly charged in your discussions I took into consideration that you were quite passionate about your profession.  I would certainly feel confortable allowing you on our premises! ;D  In our remote location we are lucky to have ethical Foresters & Loggers to deal with.  But thanks you guys for putting out the awareness (of shady characters) out there! As Brandon already pointed out, there are crooks everywhere.  Let's hope their reputation preceeds them so that they go out of business. ;)
Mrs. BowSaw

[Ron Wenrich]

I never liked the cutting on shares for landowners.  You're at the mercy of the logger, and you are just hoping that he has the good knowledge and marketing skills to get the top price for the logs.  Good bucking and good marketing will make the most money.  Cutting on shares means that they really don't need those skills.  All risk is put back on the landowner, who has no control.

I wouldn't think of telling a logger what the bid price should be or what I think he should bid to make a profit, unless I'm his consultant.  Each logger has a different set of parameters in his business.  You don't know how much money is borrowed, what he gets for his logs, how well he bucks for grade, and how much money he needs in return.  Good loggers make their money marketing logs.  Add efficiency to the list, and you have a profitable organization.

[SwampDonkey]

Unfortunately that is the majority of situations up here. But in defense of the logger who is operating in pulpwood dominated hardwood stands and mature fir with but rot, aspen dominated forest, there isn't much for high value product. Only healthy softwood stands up here increase the supply of good logs and in this market they aren't worth as much as firewood. Each region is different and I think it is hard to apply the same bucking rules in areas that might recover 2 mbf of hardwood veneer , 20 mbf in hardwood logs out of a total of 1000 mbf.  That low volume certainly isn't going to make or break an operation. Now take into account you need an area in the yard for hardwood pulp, softwood pulp, softwood logs, softwood pulp, hardwood logs, hardwood veneer. Now that's a big yard. Most fellows I know that cut any amount of wood, to justify being a logger, move wood every day from the yard. You can't build small yards and you need to be able to maneuver trucks in and out of there even if it means having the road in place to so as there is no need for a turn around. On most yards, the trucks are turned right there. Now that brings up another issue. Roads....that seems about the poorest of planning in any woodlot operation I have seen. I've seen some real messes.



Look at this mess of roads. All those dark and light colored lines are bulldozed roads.  Some are parallel to one another and about 200 -300 feet apart. : It's a 20 year old harvest where the dark lines are and the white/light lines are 8-10 year clearcuts. Believe me there isn't much there for merchantable timber, mostly regen and pole wood.

[thompsontimber]

Perhaps I have a somewhat unique perspective of having worked on both sides of this issue.  I am the 4th generation in the family timber business that began in the mill side and made its way to solely harvesting by the time I hit the woods, but am the first to go to school for forest management. Logging is what I knew, and I only knew it the way we did it.  I was in for a rude awakening as I took my first job in timber procurement.  Iworked for a well established forester who, quite frankly, talked poorly of the logging force for the most part.  I found that quite distasteful, as in my blood I was a logger after all, and I felt a great deal of pride in the profession and the noble services we offered. However,  I found out quickly that not everyone logged the way we did it...some of them I would argue didn't log at all, they simply piddled, made messes, and robbed landowners of any respect for the industry and confidence in the logging force, if not more (back to the whole timber theft issue).  I "inherited" my first logger when I joined the company, and seeing the way he conducted himself and lead his crew, I simply couldn't stomach working him.  My boss told me he was my logger, do with him as I saw fit, so I did just that and never worked him again.  But enough of my autobiography--to your question:  what I find most valuable in a logger is first and foremost a professional approach and pride in his work.  If he cares what his job looks like and in appropriate forest management, we can get along.  Next, he must be willing and able to sort products.  To be competitive, marketing of products is critical, and so many loggers have been programmed over the years to concentrate on production that sorting goes by the wayside.  If you know he cares about his performance and can sort the products appropriately, the next factor becomes his ability to do the job.  Does he have the necessary equipment, manpower, etc to get the job done in the time frame required.  And last but certainly not least, can you come to terms on logging rates!  A good logger that meets the above requirements is worth a premium, certainly worth more than a "cheap" logger who looks the part when the job is finished.  That being said, everyone still has to make a profit, and some good loggers manage to price themselves right out of work.  In these trying times, effiecency is of upmost importance, as we need to keep our good loggers.

[Ron Scott]

Loggers like their work anyway. JobsRated.com ranks logger as the worst job in America. They said that's because it involves physical labor in an outdoor environment. Still, lots of them like it.

It's a lot like being a forester – you need to be smart enough to do the work, yet slow enough to like to work outdoors... ;)

MFA Newsletter

[Geoff Kegerreis]

The kind that I can work with which at the end of a project, the landowner is happy, the logger and his crew are happy and I am happy and the woods is improved relative to the beginning of the project.

That is the best. 

Great to say that there are quite a few I have worked with in this area to have done nice work.

Four stand apart from the rest though (these guys were REALLY good)...

Two piece cutters (one is no longer logging...  :( )who did some fine jobs on a couple different projects and two harvester guys that left one pine project and one hardwood project nearly flawless.

I don't use loggers as subcontractors in my consultancy.  They are independent contractors working under an agreement with the landowner and I work as the landowner's agent to administer contract compliance in addition to preparing and marketing the timber, amongst other things. 

Here's the list (for traits I value in loggers - in addition to the honesty, etc. listed above):

1. Good communication (ask questions before actions, ask about the contract specs - sometimes they can be negotiated, talk to other crew members, etc. - keep everyone in the know!).
2. Be careful - production is job #1, but don't skid over future forests; go around, it's not that far!
3. Follow the specs!
4. Don't pull out until the job is finished!

I've had significant problems with only 3 jobbers before:

The first one ran through the woods not giving a rip about any unmarked trees and ripped up all kinds of really fine formed pole stock + failed to cut any of the aspen marked on a mostly hardwood job - it's the only bond I have had to 100% not refund (after numerous warnings to change things).  I took them off of my bid list directly after.  I am happy to say that company is no longer in business. 

The second one was in like Flynn with the timber buyer and the timber buyer was a speedy guy who had this guy start on the job without my consent and without any insurance paperwork (contrary to every single thing listed on the paper).  I was out of town on business and he left a message on my cell phone telling me his logger was cutting trees on my clients land.  I came back there the next day bright and early and shut them down immediately.  They didn't like that, but oh well - there are some lines you just don't cross (like not allowing me to fulfill my fiduciary duties).  They didn't lose their bond, but that bad start really made things go awry the entire project.  The logger wanted to work everywhere throughout the woods for seemingly no reason (it didn't appear he was going after grade, etc.) - I wouldn't mind, but it does make it a bit hard to administer though...where's this guy going to work next I wondered...?  I was glad to be done with them - they were never on my bid list to begin with, but because they were sent the solicitation from another mill I had worked with in the past, and they were the only bid I had, I accepted - I won't make that mistake again.  Next time I'll negotiate it out with someone I know I don't have to babysit every day.  I would never work with those guys again.  This particular timber buyer is no longer employed at that mill.

The last one was a distance job I had prepared and marketed in Tennessee for a client.  The logger (TN) signed a contract and (unknown to the landowner or myself) had planned all along not to cut the post timber and although everything on paper was crystal clear, the landowner failed to collect the performance bond at the beginning and failed to supervise the job as was instructed.  The logger cut all the good timber, left the skid trail and landing a mess, and left the post & cross tie wood standing marked, but uncut.  The landowner asked for the bond amount in full at the end of the job and the logger wrote the check.  Based on that experience and the "work" I saw at the Chickasaw state forest, it would be hard for me to recommend any landowner around there sell any of their trees to anyone short of a wildlife clearcut  - and even in that situation I would really be careful who I hired.  The best of their logger's work that I witnessed does not compare to the average loggers work here, despite being aware of the different conditions in these places. 

We are blessed to have some excellent loggers/operators in Michigan.  I'm afraid we are going to see less and less of them as the economic problems fully project, which is a shame.  It is really a great thing when things work out smoothly for everyone.

[WDH]

The loggers that I am working with on my project in Texas are simply outstanding.  We are doing second thinning, and that has to be done right.  I will post some pics of the job they are doing. 

[riggin rat]

I have a hard time with the foresters in my area, they get a cut from my knowlegde of the markets. most at least in my area don't ship enough volume to capitalize on the markets and end up doing there job for em. I can market my wood better than them yet they still get a cut. thats why i like to cut on a % the better i buck the wood the more the timber owner and i make.

[riggin rat]

I need to retract a little bit on my statement on foresters, I had just had a bad experince with one that day. most in my area are good, honest guys but lack the marketing experince to get top dollar for the timber owner. so I did not mean to insult anybody, just personal experiance.

[SwampDonkey]

riggin rat, I can see the frustrations. It's amazing what you run into in this business. Up here in NB thank goodness we have Marketing Boards. A woodlot owner, logger or forester can go to the office and pick up a market list with phone numbers and specs. If your unsure, the phone number of the mill is right there, all it takes in a phone call. If your cutting high value wood or a lot of volume, often a procurement guy will make a trip to your log yard. Many veneer buyers have put on training in Marketing Board wood yards.  8) If someone doesn't know the markets around here they are extremely lazy or the unimaginable, never heard of Marketing Boards. Surprisingly some don't. Just baffles me.