Using green/wet red oak

[francismilker]

For the past few weekends I've been milling and using very green red oak on a small shack/cabin project. Every time I remove the loose laid tarp from the floor to resume work I expect to find a structure resembling a canoe from warping.  However, for three weeks now it continues to be straight as a string when I uncover it.

Any guesstimate as to if it will stay that way? Or is the inevitable going to happen?

[terrifictimbersllc]

Maybe covering it with a tarp traps ground moisture and is slowing the drying that would otherwise occur.  As well as equalizing moisture loss on both faces. 

[armechanic]

I built a chicken house out of green oak about 10 yrs ago, other than shrinking it is great.  I put batten boards on it later on.

[francismilker]

I'm hoping for only shrinking and no twisting. I will also batten the siding and overlay the floor with planes hickory later.

[Ron Wenrich]

I had several uncles and a grandfather that were expert carpenters.  Built mainly larger buildings like churches and schools, but also built houses and my grandfather was also a cabinetmaker. 

I remember my one uncle telling me he was thinking of building a house with green lumber.  He said he would frame it up, then let it sit for about 6 months to let it dry in place.  I believe he would have put a roof on it.  He felt that a well built frame job would stay straight.  This was back in the days when the only modern building product was plywood.  No screws or glue used in construction. 

[francismilker]

I had several uncles and a grandfather that were expert carpenters.  Built mainly larger buildings like churches and schools, but also built houses and my grandfather was also a cabinetmaker. 

I remember my one uncle telling me he was thinking of building a house with green lumber.  He said he would frame it up, then let it sit for about 6 months to let it dry in place.  I believe he would have put a roof on it.  He felt that a well built frame job would stay straight.  This was back in the days when the only modern building product was plywood.  No screws or glue used in construction.

My grandparents house was built the same way.  (Actual thickness was 2"x4" studs and put up green with cottonwood siding)

He used a crosscut saw and had any available species sliced up when the traveling sawmill came close to him. That was in 1927. Today, it's still standing but not lived in. I'm not sure about species of framing lumber by its HARD. There is enough coats of lead-based paint on the siding to preserve it until Jesus comes back I'd guess!

[Don P]

That has been done pretty much forever. The building codes do not specify a moisture content or dry lumber, only good practice does. I've sure worked on plenty of old green oak framed houses. Typically here the corners are 4x6 with a 2x4 nailed to it and openings were 4x4's as were the angled braces. The studs between were full cut 2x4's. There are more framing members I would cull than not if they were in my pile for a new house due to bow or twist. They were either applying board finishes which are forgiving if you are or they were plastered inside, this was done after the frame had calmed down and was floated to a flat plane. Applying sheetrock or trying to get levels of flatness that I like to see usually involves lots of power planer and shim work. It is usually not a structural issue at that point but more of a serviceability one so what is acceptable is subjective. They fight me until they are thanking me much of the time for straightening out an old frame. Remember shrinkage doesn't really begin till about 30% and happens between there and equilibrium with the environment it is in. I'd bet your are still pretty green.

edit: , the reason I hit the reply button before wandering into the weeds. Fasteners, nails driven into wood green that subsequently dries lose up to 70% of their holding strength unless you use pole barn type nails, any ring or screw shanks help a lot though.

[francismilker]

DonP,
I was squeezing out water and sap as I sank the lag screws in. I cut the tree, milked it, and erected it same day. Maybe an experiment gone bad but I'm hard-headed sometimes 😤

[Joe Hillmann]

Are you just building the frame from green wood or are the floor boards also green?  If the floor boards are also green what is going to happen when they shrink?  The boards will have to split, the nail holes will have to egg out or the nails will be pulled out.  If you are putting the floor boards down green can you only nail the center of the boards or maybe put two nails only a couple inches apart that way the rest of the board can shrink?   Of course nailing it that way won't prevent the wood from cupping.

[Don P]

That made me remember a pic in my gallery. Bottom right is showing exactly where the lag is pushing water. The salesman said the milled logs would be 17%  :D. When I saw water squirting I decided to make a liar out of him and took some pics of my meter. The one shot is good for showing the difference between above and below fiber saturation point, ~30% give or take. The shell that is below fiber saturation will begin to shrink as it dries down to equilibrium, it is just beginning to get the notion in its head to start shrinking. Once it does in a thick timber like that it'll check as it shrinks around that still fat core that isn't even considering shrinking yet.

[paul case]

DonP,
I was squeezing out water and sap as I sank the lag screws in. I cut the tree, milked it, and erected it same day. Maybe an experiment gone bad but I'm hard-headed sometimes 😤

I think you will be ok. However the milking has gone to your head. HOW DO YOU MILK A TREE?
PC

[francismilker]

DonP,
I was squeezing out water and sap as I sank the lag screws in. I cut the tree, milked it, and erected it same day. Maybe an experiment gone bad but I'm hard-headed sometimes 😤

I think you will be ok. However the milking has gone to your head. HOW DO YOU MILK A TREE?
PC

Ok Paul,
You got me there. I do have a herd of jerseys though so it must have went to my head! I'm udderly happy most of the time 🐄

Joe,
I'm using green for flooring and framing with full expectations of the floor shrinking up. I plan to come back after it drys and use either some dry planed hickory I've had in the loft for years or some bois d' arc that is drying now.

This is just a cabin built by a big pond that I plan to let my first grandson call his "clubhouse" when he and his parents visit from Alaska during the summer. With any luck, it will be so crude and detestable that the women won't want to come around!

[francismilker]

So far I've got some beams that are 4x6 bolted on to some metal piers that are concreted in the ground. It is on a pretty steep hillside so in its 12' span it goes from 1' off the ground to roughly 4'. I then ran 2x6 floor joist perpendicular to the beams on 16"OC and sub floored it with 3/4" red oak. All of this lumber came from the same tree.

This same tree has also produced the 2x4 studs and will produce the siding as well.

I will use ERC rafter/log/beams for the roof framing and cover it with the same red oak for decking before using tar paper and a sheet metal roof. There will be a 2" air gap between the sheet metal and the decking due to me putting some 2" firring strips perpendicular to the roof decking.

[clintnelms]

Why are you putting decking down before your metal roof? I ask because I'm building a 30x30 wood shop now and going to have a metal roof also. But I was just planning on running 2x4s across the rafters about every 30 inches or so and screwing the metal roofing to them. Of course I live in South Georgia so snow load is not an issue which may be for you I guess. Not sure where your from.

[clintnelms]

I'm also using green lumber with no issues so far. But I'm using SYP and it dries pretty fast.

[gww]

Francismilker
I built a shed and a deck with green wood and just nailed a couple of nails in each board on each joist.  I put the boards dead tight against each other.  After it dried, it had between a 1/8 to a 1/4 inch gap but I have noticed no cupping or splitting.  My average board was about 8 inches wide and not quite 1 inch thick.  I believe magic man has posted pictures of a deck that he did that way also.  I used several differrent kinds of hard wood and that is probly where the 1/8 inch differrance in shrink gap camen on some of the boards.  On one floor in a bed room type room.  I put 1/4 inch partical board down under the boards so that when it shrunk, it would still be bug proof.  We have no intention of putting a top cover on that floor and so far it is acting like the open air floors are.  I would not cover both sides though untill it dried a long long time.
Good luck
gww

[francismilker]

Why are you putting decking down before your metal roof? I ask because I'm building a 30x30 wood shop now and going to have a metal roof also. But I was just planning on running 2x4s across the rafters about every 30 inches or so and screwing the metal roofing to them. Of course I live in South Georgia so snow load is not an issue which may be for you I guess. Not sure where your from.

I'm using decking for a couple reasons. First, to help with condensation or ceiling sweatiness. Second, because I want to have ERC showing it's color in a lofted ceiling. I'm gonna kill to birds with one stone here.

[fishfighter]

I'm also using green lumber with no issues so far. But I'm using SYP and it dries pretty fast.

I used SYP and oak all green on my camp build. For the sub floor, I used 1" OSB.



 

I only had to change out a couple studs and a couple rafters that went crazy.

[francismilker]

Why are you putting decking down before your metal roof? I ask because I'm building a 30x30 wood shop now and going to have a metal roof also. But I was just planning on running 2x4s across the rafters about every 30 inches or so and screwing the metal roofing to them. Of course I live in South Georgia so snow load is not an issue which may be for you I guess. Not sure where your from.

I'm using decking for a couple reasons. First, to help with condensation or ceiling sweatiness. Second, because I want to have ERC showing it's color in a lofted ceiling. I'm gonna kill to birds with one stone here.

Forgot to mention, when using a cast iron potbelly stove under a tin roof when its cold outside it rains on you if you don't have some type of decking or insulation between the heat and the tin. On top of my decking I will use tar paper and then run my 2x4 lathes for nailers. I will put strips of dense foam insulation between the nailers and then use the soft rolls of insulation that builders use on metal bldgs over all foam and the nailers. The sheet metal will go on top of that. Hopefully this will keep the condensation down to a minimum.

[clintnelms]

Fortunately in South Georgia we don't have that problem. Never gets cold enough for me to even need heat in my other shop. Air Conditioning is a different story though. Can't live without it. 😂

[fishfighter]

Yep, I do have a wood stove installed in my camp along with a metal roof. I did see some sweating a couple times. But I'm just started hanging sheetrock and I will be insulating the attic to R30+.

[Don P]

One note I've seen on metal roof install instructions, they caution not to use oak or acid woods in contact with metal roofing.

[clintnelms]

One note I've seen on metal roof install instructions, they caution not to use oak or acid woods in contact with metal roofing.

That is true. I've heard that also, and I've been told that from the steel company I get my roofing panels from. Haven't thought about that. Glad you mentioned it.