Old horsepower vs new

Mike-in-Virginia · January 31, 2014, 10:06:43 PM

I've been running the Frick 01 with a Ford 4600 diesel (52 hp). A neighbor has offerd to sell me a couple of old steel wheel tractors; a Fordson and a McCormick. I've heard that some folks powered mills with these sorts of tractors. Anyone have any experience along these lines?
BTW the Frick has a 42 tooth 48 inch saw.
Thanks much

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · January 31, 2014, 11:03:17 PM

When I was young (1950s), we had a McCormick farm tractor that had a blade attachment and we did saw fence posts and other things, but I cannot remember what.,,or how. I do have a vision of this blade spinning in the wind...no guards on the blade or the drive pro.

sawguy21 · January 31, 2014, 11:18:49 PM

Welcome to the forum!!! Unless you have time to tinker and have fabrication skills something that old is going to cost you a ton of time and money. Better to use a power unit that has readily available parts.

JB Griffin · January 31, 2014, 11:21:23 PM

We have 1.5 Fordson Dexta's right now the half is a parts tractor. real good little tractors bout 30-35hp REAL easy on fuel you could mow hay all day for almost 2 days on 5 gal of diesel. Parts are an issue though pretty hard to impossible to come by though widely available in England where they were made.

JB Griffin · January 31, 2014, 11:22:42 PM

Quote from: JB Griffin on January 31, 2014, 11:21:23 PM
We have 1.5 Fordson Dexta's right now the half is a parts tractor. Had 2.5 until we traded one for a 70hp Deutz. real good little tractors bout 30-35hp REAL easy on fuel you could mow hay all day for almost 2 days on 5 gal of diesel. Parts are an issue though pretty hard to impossible to come by though widely available in England where they were made.

Mike-in-Virginia · February 01, 2014, 06:54:46 AM

Thanks guys! My interest in the Frick these days is purely historic. It's back there in its shed slowly being overtaken or reclaimed by the forest. Last time I was there I noticed the sawdust conveyor had collapsed and there are some fairly large saplings growing between the log skids and around the mandrel pulley. These days when I feel the need to make some chips fly I run the Hud-Son.
Among the interesting tidbits of info I've heard was one about the fella that powered a light bulb over the husk with the 14 volts of power from his Fordson F's flywheel generator. What I haven't been able to learn so far is an idea of just how much saw these old engines would pull. The previous owner of the Frick powered it with an aged Farmall, but he was in pine country. I can count my log sized pine trees on one hand, so I saw hardwoods.
Just guessing, but it's possible that the Frick is closing in on the century mark, and friends have urged me to get it going and have a cookout/saw exhibition/hundredth birthday sort of thing.
I will tell a story on myself. At one point I thought it would be nice to adapt it to run by PTO rather than belt, since the bigger tractors don't have pullies available. I got it all done and fired it up, and the saw was running backwards. DUH!
By the way, there were a great many variations of tractor powered cordwood saws, intended to cut small diameter firewood. Most of them ended up with guards removed and sharpening fence posts. I got stuck doing a good bit of this as a kid. A little on the dangerous side, but so was holding the post while your dad wails away on it with a 16lb maul! Oh, and squirrels will eat the pullies.

dgdrls · February 01, 2014, 07:07:13 AM

Welcome aboard,

I'm not much help with the old tractors although I do enjoy them.

With the 01, Don't let the forest take it back!

DGDrls

bandmiller2 · February 01, 2014, 07:09:18 AM

Those old tractors wile having long strokes and torque won't have the moxie to do serious milling, however they would work on a Belsaw setup. I'll catch flack for this but a serious mill needs around 100hp, at least, to run efficiently. Frank C.

Magicman · February 01, 2014, 07:55:32 AM

Hello Mike-in-Virginia, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

dgdrls · February 01, 2014, 08:00:57 AM

Mike I posted this before
but cannot track it down on the board.
H.P. computation for circle style mills from Mr. S Lunstrum, USFS

http://ocs.fortlewis.edu/SWCommunityForestry/workshops/Sawmill%20Improvement/data/Presentations%20Articles%20Worksheets/Saw%20issues/How%20to%20Calculate%20Hp.pdf

DGDrls

whitepine2 · February 01, 2014, 12:37:58 PM

Saw mill in next town over used a fordson,hand crank,mag's,flat belts all a PITA unless you are into it. This mill is still run by grandson
but was changed to electric. You said you rigged it for PTO if you can get a PTO shaft lone enough move the tractor to the other side and
it will turn right for you. Best to find a diesel (I took a 6-71) from a truck all kinds Cummings,Cat etc. and go for it,plenty of power at a reasonable price. Fooling with old stuff sucks can't find parts I know
as I have about 40 Hit and miss engines from 1/2 HP to a 3 1/2 ton
20 HP which would run a mill but not worth the bother this day and age

Whitepine2

Dave Shepard · February 01, 2014, 12:48:02 PM

Welcome to the Forum. Whereabouts in SW Mass are you? Can't be far from me, I'm as West and almost as South as you can get and still be in Mass. :D

whitepine2 · February 01, 2014, 01:17:25 PM

Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 01, 2014, 12:48:02 PM
Welcome to the Forum. Whereabouts in SW Mass are you? Can't be far from me, I'm as West and almost as South as you can get and still be in Mass. :D

I am in Westport near ocean and RI cant get any further So. or West and still be in Ma. Ma and Maine were one Eastport Maine and
Westport. Eastern most town and Western most town.

clww · February 01, 2014, 05:09:31 PM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Mike in VA.

Where at?

BTW, I'm Charles in VA.

loggah · February 01, 2014, 06:23:01 PM

Those old tractors wont ae the "MOXIE" to run a board saw very well,you need at least a minimum of 40 H.P. to do anything ,i had a farmall f-12 and it didn;t have enough power to run my chase shingle mill. I ran my belsaw a bit with a 1948 case model SC which is 32 H.P. on the P.T.O. ,and i was o.k. in small pine if you fed it slow. I now have a 60 H.P. massey ferguson diesel on it and it works just fine and thats with a 46" saw. Don

Wudman · February 01, 2014, 07:08:56 PM

Plenty of old mills in this area that were powered by a Farmall M. The M was rated at 35 HP at the belt. It may have been a little underpowered by today's standards, but it was a workhorse in its day. I had a neighbor that converted his mill from a belt drive off his M to a direct PTO setup off a modern tractor. One word of advice.....be sure to have a slip clutch in your driveshaft. He didn't when he started. Encounter a big knot in the first log he sawed. His transmission went from 0 to 540 RPMs in a split second.

Wudman

Mike-in-Virginia · February 02, 2014, 08:20:10 PM

Thanks guys!
Lunstrum's formula is amazing. I was dimly aware that the number of bits in the saw bore upon the horsepower needed to run it, but to see it all worked out scientificaly is awe inspiring.
Here in Fauquier county there were once a great many farm sawmills powered with whatever was available. One I recall visiting as a child was powered by what I now know was an ancient Farmall on steel. Thing started on gasoline, ran on kerosene, and had a straight pipe that was deafening. I was too young in those days to realize just what a treasure of information and experience those old-timers had accumulated.
I'm sure they weren't operating at anything like maximum efficiency, but since loading and hauling logs was really tough in the days before really capable tractor loaders became available, their local rigs were the best alternative.
I know now that what I should have done with the PTO was to drive a tire/wheel mounted on a stub axle with the tread up against the mandrel pulley. Air pressure would have adjusted the engagement, alowed a slip clutch effect, while reversing the rotation. Would need to be under the roof cause it would slip too much if wet.
I like the bandmill better for many reasons, but the old stuff, especially that modified by its owner, is still fascinating.
Thanks again!

hobo · February 02, 2014, 10:34:36 PM

I like my Farmall M with PTO and jackshaft with 4, C crosss section v belts driving the main shaft.
turns the blade at 500 rpm.
works will on frozen pine and hemlock.

dboyt · February 03, 2014, 07:03:37 AM

Welcome to the forum! I've run an old Belsaw with an old Massey Harris & flat belt drive. The belt came off at random times, if everything wasn't lined up perfectly, but it did absorb any shock. I've heard some pretty gruesome stories about sawmill accidents... be careful, whatever you use. Even if you decide to change powerplants later, you've still got a good tractor to use or sell.

bandmiller2 · February 03, 2014, 08:01:28 AM

Flat belts are far from an ideal way to drive a mill. Big problem is flapping and pulsing the load on the arbor, it doesn't seem to matter how heavy the arbor is or how many bearings you have. Multiple "Vee" belts is a better solution. Probibly the purest drive is the PTO to the arbor (with protection) it reduces side loads. The old timers used flat because that was all they had. Flat belts can be improved a little with a 180 twist but that will change your rotation. Not to mention flats popping off the pulley under load and chasing you. Frank C.