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Genset

Started by Horselog, February 25, 2016, 11:17:38 AM

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Horselog

This has been discussed on here some, but I'm going to bring it up again.  I'm looking at the pros and cons of running a mill and support equipment directly off engines or getting a diesel genset and running everything on 3 phase.  I like the idea of easy setup for engine driven devices, just pull it in, start the engine and you're running.

But I understand that 3 phase is superior in almost every way to engines.  So the question is, if I'm running a diesel genset to power my 3 phase motors does the advantage still apply?  Does anyone have experience in regards to this?

For those who haven't seen my previous posts, I am looking at setting up a smaller production setup that will be semi-permanent.  Probably I will set up a specific site and be there at least 2 years, maybe longer, before I would move the operation.  And no, it doesn't make sense to run 3 phase lines to this location.

What are some examples of a good genset that I might look for?
Benjamin Harris
Appalachian Mountains of Virginia
horse_logger@me.com

WV Sawmiller

Horselog,

   Can't help with advice on the genset (I do have a 1700 kva Guardian/Generac whole house genset hooked to natural gas as a back up and I love it) but have you looked at the cost comparison between the one time installation of 3 phase power from your utility company and the kilowatt rate vs the cost of a genset, on-going maintenance, diesel costs, etc. I'd bet the initial cost is comparable but the continuing cost would be less with prime power. Just one more thing to think about.

   Okay, mostly disregard as I neglected to pay attention to the comment that you could not run prime power to your proposed site.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Grizzly

I've been pondering the very same dilemma. I have singe phase power to the yard and could install a converter, but the way our utility handles billing it's likely cheaper to provide my own power. I've found several gensets in the 105kw range going for under $5000 on Ironplanet and Ritchie Bros but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I'm sure hoping theirs discussion on this as I'd like input as well.
2011 - Logmaster LM-2 / Chinese wheel loader
Jonsered saws - 2149 - 111S - 90?
2000 Miners 3-31 Board Edger

Den-Den

With the initial cost of the genset, fuel cost and maintenance; your cost for electrical power will be much higher than what utilities charge.  If you are running multiple 3 phase motors, might come out ahead of multiple diesel engines but only if you handle the electrical maintenance in-house.
Consider the start up demands of the largest electric motor when sizing your generator.  Generator capacity should be 5 times the full load of the largest motor, even then there will be some voltage drop when the motor starts.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

sandsawmill14

we have installed gensets from 150kw up to 1200kw on sawmills. they are not as efficient as diesel driven mills but one genset big enough to run entire setup is much more efficient than a separate engines for mill chipper...
den is right about the 5 times biggest motor for start load but you also need the figure total motor load + 20% and use which ever one is bigger :)
when i sized them i always went 25% oversized instead of 20% because you are always gonna end up adding something in the future :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

red

I have asked this question for about 10 years without any real good answers. But if it was such a great idea don't you think the sawmill manufacturers would be partnered with the genset people. Sold as a package . Once I was told a 3 phase gen set has a hard time keeping all three legs consistent.  I try not to reinvent the wheel .
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

outpost22

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on February 25, 2016, 04:26:58 PM

den is right about the 5 times biggest motor for start load but you also need the figure total motor load + 20% and use which ever one is bigger :)
when i sized them i always went 25% oversized instead of 20% because you are always gonna end up adding something in the future :)

With modern day "soft start" capabilities in VFD (Variable Frequency Drive), I'm not sure that this holds true in all cases. Start up amperage can be 3-5 times what running name plate amperage is without VFD. With soft start capabilities, I believe this start up amperage requirement drops quite a bit, possibly dropping the size of your genset requirement= less $. 
That being said, the local power company estimaters can usually calculate long term costs of "shore power" (kilowatt cost)  vs. diesel gensets.  Unfortunately diesel prices are always in flux so it is a Guestimate.
Out here electrical cost is "cheap" due to low kilowatt cost due to our hydro-electric plants.  It is the cheapest way to run anything dollar for dollar. Yes I know about solar, wind, etc, but I should say "reliable power"  ;)
For years we have set agricultural pumps up with many different power sources.  With 3 phase power, they do run most efficient, and at 480 volt they run cheapest, though I've run into 208 volt & 230 volt 3 phase as well.  What you have to look at is the cost for the controls too. If you run 480 volt and your controls use 110 or 220 vac., then it must be accounted for (more cost initially). Something to think about.  A qualified electrician can be a valuable source in helping with this selection.
Creating one more project one at a time.
Burg Bandsaw Mill
Stihl 010
Stihl 210
Stihl 251
Stihl 461
Husky 350
Kubota L3800

sandsawmill14

i know of one mill set with a manual transfer switch so he can run either genset or from the power company. he uses the power company when he is sawing full time and if he needs to saw for a week or so he can run the genset or if diesel was a $1 or less he would run genset full time. the reason for this is he can saw 1 week and  electric bill will be about 5500 bucks if you saw for the full month its only about 7000 bucks the reason for this is the peak demand charge that comes with 480v services in our area (may or may not be the same elsewhere) 10,000 or less will get a good genset and it cost many times that to get 480 from the electric system in most rural areas :)

outpost
modern vfd run into BIG money for sawmills we are happy to get a working/repairable used a/t rvs for 2-3000 and have paid up to 5000 for nice 200hp units you can setup the entire mill genset and equip for the price of the vfds alone but we do use the vfds where we need them for speed control but rarely over 10 hp
TN LE #51669 expired/retired :)  all of this could be different far as prices in different areas but holds true in our area  ;)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Grizzly

So I don't know what sort of power Horselog has to his site, but I have 200amp of single phase 240 volt. Do I need to get the utility out to ask how much power I can draw off of that to power a 3 phase converter? And if I'm understanding correctly I would go like this:
Sawmill - 30KW
Edger - 30KW
Power rollers, infeed, outfeed, etc - 20KW?
So total needs are around 80KW but I need 150KW to have enough starting power? Will that allow the smallest motor to start once all the others are running? Hopefully I'm asking questions that are useful to Horselog and his initial question.
2011 - Logmaster LM-2 / Chinese wheel loader
Jonsered saws - 2149 - 111S - 90?
2000 Miners 3-31 Board Edger

sandsawmill14

grizzly the 3-5 times is for gensets only.  when hooked to electric grid you are allowed up to 800% fla on motor circuits as long as proper overload protection is provided this keeps the fuse/breaker from tripping on start up. 200 amp single phase will pull the load you listed BUT  some questions do you have help so you are edging and sawing at the same time?  is the other 20 kw in 1-2 motors or 4-5 motors? do they start under load ?  a rpc will do what you want just have to figure out the best way to do it 1 large 2 smaller ones  ???  :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

sandsawmill14

horselog  if a genset is properly size and regs are properly adjusted to voltage the only difference is the noise and the fuel bill.   they run hospitals off of them  ;D   but either  a genset or engine will do the job but if you want to add a dust belt or green chain or anything else its alot easier to do with electric than with line shaft and belts or multiple engines :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

WoodenHead

A few comments:

1.  Utility charges for 3 phase service can be steep.  Three phase service at my place would run about $500/month, just for the privilege of being able to receive electricity from the utility.  Then there are peak demand charges ($/kW) and finally the electricity itself.

2.  VFDs in normal circumstances will reduce the amount of start-up current.  But...a VFD is a non-linear load.  That's a fancy way of saying that a VFD is a difficult load to power with a genset, particularly if you are trying to minimize the genset size.  You should never size the genset less than 2 x the full load current of what you are trying to power when using VFDs/gensets.  Even at that, there is a risk of genset problems because of the harmonics generated by the VFDs.  VFDs are wonderful devices, a bit pricey ($5000-$8000 for a 50HP motor), and are best used in variable speed applications or where you are able to run an electric motor at less than rated speed (for significant electricity savings).  Industry uses them everywhere.

3.  With a 240V, 200A service I'm not sure that you would be able to power all of the loads you are looking to with a rotary phase converter.  I would think you might get away with up to 40HP.

My two cents.

Horselog

Thanks for all the replies.  Lots of good stuff to think about.
Benjamin Harris
Appalachian Mountains of Virginia
horse_logger@me.com

sandsawmill14

the minimum circuit size for a 75 hp rpc is 125 amps max is 350 and would pull 182 amps with voltage between 208-250v what im not sure about is if you would want to use 1 big one to a 3 phase panel or 2 smaller ones 1 for saw and 1 for edger and other equip. how thick is the lumber being edged? 2" or less the edger aint loaded so a 40 hp would work :) it all boils down to how much you are willing to work around to save a little money ;D :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

sandsawmill14

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on February 25, 2016, 10:10:45 PM
the minimum circuit size for a 75 hp rpc is 125 amps max is 350 and would pull 182 amps with voltage between 208-250v what im not sure about is if you would want to use 1 big one to a 3 phase panel or 2 smaller ones 1 for saw and 1 for edger and other equip. how thick is the lumber being edged? 2" or less the edger aint loaded so a 40 hp would work :) it all boils down to how much you are willing to work around to save a little money ;D :)

check out phoenix phase converters  their site has all the specs for different sizes :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

Cazzhrdwd

I have an Arco Roto Phase running my 5 head woodmizer moulder. It has about 47 hp when everything is running and draws 125 FLA's. I've been very happy with it. I've had the Arco since about 2003, never done a thing to it. It starts a 20hp but will run 50, you just have to start one motor at a time.
96 Woodmizer LT40Super  Woodmizer 5 head moulder

sandsawmill14

you can also get them big motors rolling with a small motor to overcome the high start load amps when you just cant get enough power to do it ;D lots of ways to "get by" but its much you are willing to give up to save the money :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

redprospector

I brought in a 165 Kw gen set a while back. It was a back up generator for a dairy. It was built in 1959, so it's a year older than I am.  :o
My little operation will be a combination of individually powered units, and electric ran off a generator.
I think the big generator is going to go to an auction. Just too big and old. I have found a 100 Kw for under $5000. My thinking is that a gen set is just 1 engine to maintain, where if you have an engine on each piece of equipment your maintenance will be much higher.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

starmac

Look at rock crushers, there are some around with diesel motors running every aspect of them, but by far the industry runs gensets and multiple motors. My way of thinking is a rotary phase converter may be the way to go if were talking just a couple of motors, but multiple I'm thinking a genset would be cheaper in the long run.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

jdonovan

also give thoughts to fuel.

An operation of that size is going to need quite a bit of fuel a day. How are you going to get supply, how often, where/how are you going to store.

EPA put some new rules into effect a few years ago with regard to how much fuel, and what size containers now come under the new rules.... found it... spill control plan.  If you are near any water take a look at that.  Any container over 54 gallons including equipment mounted tanks counts.


outpost22

It's interesting how costs/styles vary from one side of the country to the other.  :)

The cost of bringing IN 3 phase power here is exhorbitant. The cost of using it is not.
Using VFD to run things is usually a good investment and typically a lot less than expected-but we used got them wholesale direct from manufacturers.  So the cost wasn't near as steep as buying them from outlet houses.  I was merely trying to translate it into lower genset cost/fuel cost/wiring cost and not having that hard start amperage issue.  This is a tough decision I would think. How much run time will the mill have? What will fuel costs become in another year? Back to over $4.00/gal for diesel?  Using phase inverters are an option, but how much load is the supply service capable of providing? What will the electric co. limit it to?  It varies here from location to location.
Sure am interested in how this all turns out.  ???
Creating one more project one at a time.
Burg Bandsaw Mill
Stihl 010
Stihl 210
Stihl 251
Stihl 461
Husky 350
Kubota L3800

sandsawmill14

80% is the allowable load for the service and a good rule to go by even if its not going to be inspected :) they ask me 4500 bucks per pole (approx 500' span per pole) on the last one i check on and it was 240v 480 volt would be more because it is true 3 phase and requires an extra wire  :o
with 240v they can create the 3rd leg on the transformers  :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Grizzly

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on February 25, 2016, 09:08:07 PM
grizzly the 3-5 times is for gensets only.  when hooked to electric grid you are allowed up to 800% fla on motor circuits as long as proper overload protection is provided this keeps the fuse/breaker from tripping on start up. 200 amp single phase will pull the load you listed BUT  some questions do you have help so you are edging and sawing at the same time?  is the other 20 kw in 1-2 motors or 4-5 motors? do they start under load ?  a rpc will do what you want just have to figure out the best way to do it 1 large 2 smaller ones  ???  :)

First - a couple of definitions if I could ask? FLA? RPC?  ....... Duh, I figure out RPC while typing this up (rotary phase converter!!) I'll keep working on FLA but feel free to educate me.

I have lots of help here at home so when we get the edger going I expect we could have up to 5 people working. We'd only need 3 but why not use more if their here?  ;D  The other 20kw would be motors for the log infeed deck, I'd like to add live rollers for lumber handling, as well as a green chain. In the long dream I'd also have a conveyor taking slabs to the firewood saw. I think those would all be small motors but wiring would be simpler than trying to power each piece with an engine? I've got more ideas than I have money but the more I plan ahead the less I need to duplicate in purchasing. And the more I can mechanize things the longer all of our backs and such should survive.
2011 - Logmaster LM-2 / Chinese wheel loader
Jonsered saws - 2149 - 111S - 90?
2000 Miners 3-31 Board Edger

Dave Shepard

FLA Full Load Amps.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

sandsawmill14

FLA is full load amps it is listed as fla on the motor tag along with the sf which is service factor, voltge, frame # which is the mounting plate design along with other stuff  :) if i were you i would call a phase convertor company and let them size what you need. you might could get by with a 75 hp running everything but it would be questionable  i would think 1 40hp and 1 50hp (then you would have some juice to spare ;D ) would be better then if one smoked you wouldnt be completely down. also you can add another 200 amp single phase service if you needed to without breaking the bank and no kind of demand charge or anything like that. i will help you all i can BUT you will have to either be specific with your needs or just go twice the size to be sure which will work but not the cheapest way  ;)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

sandsawmill14

Dave beat me to it ::) :D :D :D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

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