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Small scale sawmill business

Started by dirthawger, November 12, 2017, 04:43:43 PM

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dirthawger

Quote from: TKehl on November 13, 2017, 09:41:52 AM
You really should determine your market and log supply before plunking down $$.  It could be anything from urban timber to ???  I went with a swing mill first as I cannot compete with the local Mennonite mill on price and there is already a local established with a portable bandmill.  I hunt the oversize timber niche and pick up some other jobs here and there.

From your other post, I know you have a tractor.  That will help a ton with log handling.  Logs can be moved with winches, arches, and ramps, but it just takes longer.

With that said, entry level sawmills sell quickly and for near new price as long as they are kept up.  And making payment is a lot easier than making a living from a portable mill.  So the risk is pretty low.

As for Woodmizer, it is kind of the John Deere or Caterpillar of the band mill world.  Darn good machines with good support and as such, there is a small premium there (but also a premium if you sell it).  I don't have one, but they are worth strong consideration, though other makes and models are certainly worthy contenders.  If I upgrade my baby bandmill, I'll most likely be looking at either an EZ boardwalk 40 or a Cook's extra wide mostly for width capacity as mentioned above.

PS  If you get into sawmilling, you'll probably get a bit into firewood in order to get rid of the waste slabs.  2 dreams with one stone!   ;D

Im not sure about my log supply as i primarily aim to be portable so customers will call me to saw their logs. As far as competition, there's only one other guy in my area that does milling. I agree with CAT being top of the line,  not so sure about JD tractors though.  We use them at work to move dragline cable and they bong down easily, put me in a bind several times trying to move cable while the dragline is walking,  bogged down and dragline almost sat down on the cable.

Crossroads

Quote from: dirthawger on November 13, 2017, 09:50:34 AM
Guess ill really have to consider the hydraulic models. It wouldn't even be a question for me if it weren't for the unknown. The fear of not knowing if id get business is the only thing keeping me from getting one with hydraulics but from what I've read that won't be a problem.  I think what ill do is go with the lt35 but ill just wait and save up a few months worth of payments. But if i end up getting tons of business i might just sell my grinder.  Looks like if i wanted to be serious about sawing i wouldn't have time for a fulltime job, grinder, and sawmill. Ive been considering selling my grinder anyway.  Its seems quite seasonal and my payments are $558 a month and its just not quite the type of tree work i want to be in.
You can have a pretty nice mill for that $558 a month and there is a lot more versatility with a mill. You can be portable, find a niche and have a log supply to accomadate that niche, cut hardwood slabs for furniture, beams for Custom builders...... your imagination is the only limit. Since Your already in business, don't forget the tax benefits
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

hopm



As for Woodmizer, it is kind of the John Deere or Caterpillar of the band mill world.  Darn good machines with good support and as such, there is a small premium there (but also a premium if you sell it).  I don't have one, but they are worth strong consideration, though other makes and models are certainly worthy contenders.  If I upgrade my baby bandmill, I'll most likely be looking at either an EZ boardwalk 40 or a Cook's extra wide mostly for width capacity as mentioned above.

Been looking at the EZ Boardwalk 40 myself. Looks like the most bang for the buck out there. Fighting off putting my mill on the market for the upgrade.

dirthawger

Man, might have to put my grinder up for sale now, i really think i could make a lot more with the mill.

starmac

Everyone has different ideas of what making money is. I do not know what the difference in payments would be between your lt 15 at 140 a month and say a lt40 hd, but in my opinion it would be easier and maybe even quicker to make 3 times that monthly with a fully hydraulic mill.

It is just my personal opinion, which sure isn't worth much, but if my intent was to bring in income, I would not even consider a manual mill, even to get started and get a feel for what a guy can do.

One thing a guy can do if he is just wanting a spare time gig and not a whole bunch of sawing or a lot of logs, is to build and sell something instead of trying to profit soley on board feet. What is an 8X10 portable building worth in your area for instance?
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Chop Shop

Quote from: dirthawger on November 13, 2017, 11:34:59 AM
Man, might have to put my grinder up for sale now, i really think i could make a lot more with the mill.

You could get rich!  :D

  I mean the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side, right??    :)

Peter Drouin

Big or small, all it takes is a lot of MONEY to get started. :D :D ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

dirthawger

So are y'all saying running a sawmill business is a bad idea?

starmac

Not at all, but like any business, you need your ducks in a row.

I didn't buy my mill with the intention of sawing for hire or even building a business with it, I tend to think it is entirely possible though.
I would not however start out with a manual mill thinking of building a business with it.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Stuart Caruk

The cost of the machine is of course tax deductable. You won't ever regret buying a hydraulic mill, although you will regret getting just a manual one, unless you plan to start that way and trade up. Get the biggest baddest you can comfortably afford.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

Chop Shop

Honestly I thought the other way around.

I have a good friend that is "kinda" retired from the tree service bizz.    He pretty much only cuts easy jobs with minimal cleanup.   He usually runs a stump grinder most of the time.

His stump grinder is VERY CHEAP to run.   It does not need teeth very often.  Its run by ONE man, no helper needed.   It uses only gas.  He sometimes digs a couple rocks out of the way.  99 percent of the time he backs it in and just pulls levers and watches a stump get eaten.

While he's there a few neighbors always come out to see what the noise is and are usually amazed and how good it works.  Then they all ask, "how much to get rid of a couple of my pesky stumps while your here?"

His machine is not a new expensive to buy and fix track mounted grinder.  Its not an a little rental sized machine that takes forever either.    Its a nice older Vermeer that is towed with a truck and backed into place and starts grinding.   It works great and is very inexpensive to operate.   It can make ALLOT of money in a day by ONE man that not working very hard.

Sometimes I think the grass is greener on his side of the fence.

Ianab

Quote from: dirthawger on November 13, 2017, 10:44:39 PM
So are y'all saying running a sawmill business is a bad idea?


No.

But simply quitting your day job and buying expensive machinery to start a business you have little experience with might be a bad idea.

Getting a cheaper used or manual mill and doing some part time weekend hobby sawing first might be wiser. Do that for a while and while you may not make much money, you will soon be a competent sawyer, have a stash of wood you can market, and have got your feet wet in the business. You can then judge better what your market options are, and what machine or other equipment you are going to need to expand your business to full time.

For example we don't have a lot of demand for custom sawing locally, but I've salvaged a lot of good cypress / cedar / eucalyptus / sheoak wood with my little manual swing blade (that has no payments to worry about) and am now in the position to make (and sell) some unique custom woodworking projects. Still a part time gig, but when you can turn a free tree into $1000 of outdoor furniture, that's arguably better than slaving away sawing for someone else.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Magicman

You do have to find the market that suits you and your available time.  I bought my sawmill used and had never seen a portable sawmill operate.  My intention was to fell/saw logs from my property and sell lumber.  I quickly realized that I was without a much needed lumber shed and what about inventory?

In less than a year I found my market in portable sawmilling.  No shed, no inventory, no logging, and no slab/sawdust to dispose of.  I am now completing my 15th year of sawing.   :)

I saws um and leaves um.    ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

TKehl

There are lots of opinions on this thread.  The great thing is they are ALL right for the given set of circumstances.  There's no blue print to follow.  Kind of have to find your own road to success taking bits and pieces of advice here and building what works for you.

I would recommend watching a TON of uTube videos on sawmills.  Ones your interested in, but a few that you hadn't considered as well, because you never know.  When you get a short list together, see if you can find someone that has one and offer to tail for free if they show you the operation in person. 

If I were in your shoes and the grinder was at least making its payments, I'd keep going with it. (Unless you just hate it.)  When paid off, it will pay for your mill or next piece of equipment.  I'm a fan of MSI (Multiple Sources of Income).  I find its easier to have 3-5 things that can make $5-15K each than one thing that will make $50k.  YMMV   ;)
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

dirthawger

Quote from: Stuart Caruk on November 14, 2017, 01:15:51 AM
The cost of the machine is of course tax deductable. You won't ever regret buying a hydraulic mill, although you will regret getting just a manual one, unless you plan to start that way and trade up. Get the biggest baddest you can comfortably afford.

This is the plan i intended to follow. Im not quitting my day job or selling my grinder. My plan was to get the lt15 that is portable and if i become swamped with work a bigger one is a phone call away. Im much more comfortable with a 170 a month note vs 450. My way of thinking is that itd give me the opportunity to really get a feel for the market without a lot of risk. That was my plan at least.

Crossroads

Quote from: Magicman on November 14, 2017, 07:13:24 AM
You do have to find the market that suits you and your available time.  I bought my sawmill used and had never seen a portable sawmill operate.  My intention was to fell/saw logs from my property and sell lumber.  I quickly realized that I was without a much needed lumber shed and what about inventory?

In less than a year I found my market in portable sawmilling.  No shed, no inventory, no logging, and no slab/sawdust to dispose of.  I am now completing my 15th year of sawing.   :)

I saws um and leaves um.    ;D

I like the no mess option of sawing at other people's places too. I just noticed your 74 years old, that's impressive your still out there making boards! Gotta love hydraulics;)
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

WV Sawmiller

DH,

   If you are going to do it, do it right. If I were hiring a sawyer to come cut my logs into lumber and I was tailing for him I'd want him to get in and get out and not keep me tied up for a week doing a 1-2 day job. Cutting with a manual mill at your home or by yourself might not be a problem with the time involved but if you are tying up my time that is different. Lumber generally sells for the same price whether it was sawed manually,on  a hydraulic mill or a big circle mill somewhere. If sawing by the hour you can justify a higher rate with a bigger/hydraulic mill and you can finish faster and let you and your customer move on to the next project.

   You don't have to buy the biggest hydraulic mill out there with all the bells and whistles but at least get a mill big enough to give you some credibility.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

starmac

My thoughts is a manual mill is fine for a hobby sawyer in a permanent location, where you can rig up a log deck or have equipment to load and handle logs.
If you are sawing portable, there may or may not be anything there to handle logs, we have all seen pictures of nightmare log decks customers have put up expecting the sawyer to be able to handle them.

My thoughts are if I hire a mill and it shows up and is a manual, I will be paying by the board foot period. If it is too slow and keeps me or somebody I am paying to tail tied up too long, I am on the losing side, no matter how nice and hard working the sawyer is. Chances are I will never call him back remembering the experience. He may have upgraded to to the latest and greatest, but a bad memory will make it so I never find out.

The other thing is, looking at the board foot prices many are charging, a manual mill will have you working for minimum wage, and paying a monthly payment along with maintaining a sawmill and at least a pickup, plus insurance, etc for the opportunity to work hard for the same money as the guy taking your order at micky D's.

I am not trying to dissuade you or anybody from starting your business, if you like sawing, it can be very gratifying and even fun, I just wouldn't want to start out with what I see as a major disadvantage to start with. Even with the best and latest and greatest mills, you will not be seeing a lot of millionair sawyers. lol.
I do think a guy with determination can make a good living with one, especially once you find your niche and love what you are doing.
I would be much more inclined to either take on the bigger payment if buying new, or looking for a used hydraulic machine.
My idea of upgrading after I found my business working would be trading up from a used machine to a newer diesel or adding another piece of equipment such as an edger or something like that.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

drobertson

I briefly scanned the comments posted on this, all I have to add to this thread is if you want to do it, do it.  If you are doing sawmilling, you will for certain have plenty of opportunity to do some fire wood along the way.  Budgets for the most part determine initial paths, and these paths vary as does the budget. So, find your in and open door,  and by all means at least visit some other mills, seeing is believing.  It leads to or should anyway a better understanding of whats needed.  I made a call just today to a lady who for the last 3-4 weeks maybe been advertising for a sawyer, seems like folks don't want to work.  She's been sawing beams for cabins it seems.  Well after a good nice visit on the phone I agreeded to visit just to see, maybe help her,, this said, it's just a hard hoe to roe, make no mistake about that,,I wish you all the best, which ever route you take,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

red

Buy a big sawmill business and it will quickly become a small sawmill business.
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

paul case

Quote from: Crossroads on November 14, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: Magicman on November 14, 2017, 07:13:24 AM
You do have to find the market that suits you and your available time.  I bought my sawmill used and had never seen a portable sawmill operate.  My intention was to fell/saw logs from my property and sell lumber.  I quickly realized that I was without a much needed lumber shed and what about inventory?

In less than a year I found my market in portable sawmilling.  No shed, no inventory, no logging, and no slab/sawdust to dispose of.  I am now completing my 15th year of sawing.   :)

I saws um and leaves um.    ;D

I like the no mess option of sawing at other people's places too. I just noticed your 74 years old, that's impressive your still out there making boards! Gotta love hydraulics;)


MM is impressive.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Brucer

I started with an LT40 manual and within a year I sold it and bought a new LT40 hydraulic.

OlJarhead  started with an LT10, built a trailer for it, and got so many sawing requests that he sold his LT10"Super" and bought a new hydraulic LT40.

In my case, I couldn't afford a hydraulic mill. If I had borrowed the extra money to buy one, I wouldn't have been able to make my payments for the first six months. But after a year I had enough business to convince the credit union to lend me the money to upgrade. I paid off my 5 year loan in 20 months and was still putting money aside.

I trained a guy how to saw last spring using my LT40. The goal was not to teach him how to use a WoodMizer (he'd already ordered a Norwood). It was to teach him how to read a log and how to deal with the material. When I went to see how he was doing a few months after his mill arrived, he'd built a simple log deck that would let him load logs as fast as my LT40 could load them -- mind you, he had the use of the customer's skid steer to get the logs on the deck.

So while lots of people will advise you to go hydraulic right from the start, there's a lot to be said for starting with a less expensive mill (even an LT10!) getting some experience (and customers) before moving up to something better.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Ianab

QuoteI started with an LT40 manual and within a year I sold it and bought a new LT40 hydraulic.

OlJarhead  started with an LT10, built a trailer for it, and got so many sawing requests that he sold his LT10"Super" and bought a new hydraulic LT40.

I agree with that if you are starting from zero experience. Chances are you wont make money in the first 6 months anyway, but if you buy a fancy mill, you will have to make payments.  But if you buy a cheap mill, don't give up your day job, and learn to saw properly while making a few business contacts in your "spare" time. Don't expect to make any huge profit, but you shouldn't be loosing money either. Then when you find there is the demand for your services, you have a business plan, and the milling experience to actually carry it out.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

WV Sawmiller

   I agree with many of Brucer & Ian's comments if the sawyer has a place to saw and learn that is a good thing. I sawed at home and used my practice lumber to build a pole barn to store lumber in. I think Ol Jarhead got his first mill for personal use then turned it into a business and upgraded later.

   I don't think anyone should buy any mill and expect the customer to pay for him learning how to use it and for the initial time and mistakes most of us make when learning. I would not want to do so.

   I still think anyone sawing mobile should have a hydraulic mill or bring along the extra support equipment needed to move the process along at a reasonable pace. If not I think the sawyer should be sawing alone or with his provided helper and charging by the bf. Just my opinion and I was wrong once before (I thought I had made a mistake :D :D).

   I do think "interning" with another sawyer would be time and effort well spent.

   Good luck no matter what you decide.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Florida boy

All I know is that a all manual mill will work you down by yourself. I would hate to think of going mobile on a job with my manual mill. Once I get it set up under a shed with log deck and some type of roller tables my production should go up and level of being exhausted go down. If j were looking to make a business out of it I would look real hard at a used hydraulic mill. Rolling loading and leveling logs can really take a toll if all manual.

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