Killing American Beech Suckers ??

[nyforester]

Once the leaves pop here in New York, will Roundup kill Beech stump sprouts and root suckers ? I just finished a 150 acre TSI lot where I harvested all the beech and other associated pulpwood. I saved what little logs I found and chipped everything else. The woods look like a park. Now I am concerned that the beech will take over the stand again in the coming years. The residual stand is made up of White pine and black birch.  Last picture is the big move to a new job.

please use forum photo gallery for pictures.
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[SwampDonkey]

I have been told that you folks have trouble with beech root suckering in the NE states. That is not a big problem up my way, most are seedling germinates, stool shoots and stump sprouts here. Had a scholar-type from NY teaching a hardwood management course, who was amazed that all the seedlings he pulled at the site we were at were...seedlings and not root suckers when he was explaining the reproductive avenues of beech. The only time it is a problem here when removing beech is when the residual crown closure is > 70 %, the shade holds back the sugar maple and yellow birch. On old firewood lots it's just a sea of beech regen and saplings within 10 years. Using roundup after the spring flush is going to kill anything green, including the pine or other evergreen regen. I wouldn't recommend it. I've not had any luck with Vision on beech or sugar maple. It will reduce growth for about 3 years, but not very successful in killing it. After about 8 years you can see when you applied it on advanced regen, it will have a cluster of buds and shoots in that year. You'll think that's strange, what happened here?

Looks like you have a good sized operation there. I agree it sure looks like a park without all the brush around. What advanced regeneration is already established? Was there alot of oak in the stand, or maple? I don't think the black birch will cast dense shade, so you may have good luck with seed germination. Hope alot of the seed is other than beech though.

Your off-site photos are killing my connection by-the-way.  :(

[nyforester]

The over story is comprised of White pine & black oak mostly. The advanced regeneration is White pine and Black birch with scattered oaks. I left a few of the nicest Scotch pine in hopes of growing some pole in the future. I doubt very much there will be beech seed germination. Black birch and White pine does very well on this site. I anticipate a carpet of White pine seedlings with scatterd black birch and oak seedking throughout. The Beech will be all stumps and root suckers. Its only about 150 acres so I might put a crew together after leaf out and spot spray the stumps with back packs full of roundup. This is a large parcel of land (@3,200 contiguous acres) I work on every year.

[SwampDonkey]

From what you've explained, I wouldn't expect much trouble from beech. Sure some will show up, but probably not a problem. Spot spraying those stumps is going to be quite a chore. Can you put some dye in the mix so it will mark the stump you already sprayed before?

Scots pine up here gets alot of insect damage. Most were planted in Christmas tree farms or wind breaks and most people have let them go. The real early cultivars were poorly selected and are as crooked as all get out.

[nyforester]

The Scotch pine on this property are all very strait. It must have been a very good genetic seed. The only problem is that it had poor management in the past and was never thinned correctly. They look like fishing poles with small crowns. I left the best looking ones behind. If they don't make it i will get them in 8-10 years.

I was planning on using my paint gun to put a mark on each stump, but the dye is a much better idea. Thanks for the tip !!

[bitternut]

Well I did not get to see the pictures but if your beech is anything like mine most of the larger beech are surrounded by a small thicket of root sprouts. The only way to kill them is to do a hack and squirt on the mother tree which will get the sprouts at the same time. Since you have already cut them down I think you will have to spray the suckers when they leaf out or do a basal bark spray. Basal bark spray is a lot more costly than using roundup but is more selective than a spray of roundup on suckers that may be several feet tall. Also the basal spray can be done anytime of year as long as there is no snow to cover the base of the sprouts. If the sprouts are small you most likely will only have to spray one side of the sprout from the ground line up to about 18".

Also I wonder why you are leaving the black birch. Most foresters in my area seem to try to limit leaving any black birch as there is no market for it. I have a couple of areas that had been cut improperly and the black birch came in there thicker than hair on a dogs back. It is now mostly a few larger beech surrounded by a beech thicket and thickets of 3" to 6" black birch. A good example of what happens when you cut the best and leave the weed trees for restocking. I haven't figured out yet what I can do to return this area to a proper hardwood forest.

[SwampDonkey]

Isn't black birch similar to yellow birch. If I had a whole stand of mature yellow birch veneer it would be a gold mine provided the quality was there and the nectaria canker didn't get to it. I think he's left mostly black oak and white pine with a few black birch mixed in. The beech would be the only trash tree if it's infected with beech bark disease. In my experience a photo of a stand that has been worked in doesn't do justice to show the quality of the job. Your just looking out a tiny window. If you can see the tree tops in the photo, you won't see the stems down to the but log and you have limited ability to differentiate a good quality tree from a poor one because of scale and resolution.

[nyforester]

Bitternut
Black and yellow birch logs are basically handled in the same markets. We have very good sawlog and veneer markets for both. In my area, black birch grows faster and straiter than yellow birch.

[SwampDonkey]

As far as the growth rate between the birches , your probably right. I know sugar maple grows faster on release cuts than yellow birch does. After 10 years the maple (not stump sprouts) will be 4 meters and the yellow birch is barely 3m.  :-\ We will get nice yellow birch on sites that are not dry, but stays  moist and not sloppy wet. Well managed stands have much better quality of course, as always.

[bitternut]

Nyforester when I first had a section of our woods marked by a forester for tsi I questioned why black birch were marked for cutting. It was explained to me that there was no market for them and they are considered a weed tree in our area. We have had more acreage marked for tsi and most of the black birch were once again marked for cutting. There are very few yellow birch in our area and I believe there are less than a handful on our 200 acres.

Some of the black birch get fair sized but many have poor form. They do make good firewood and I have been making use of them for heating my house. They do seem to be on the stringy side when splitting but burn pretty good. I wish they were worth saving since they seem to regenerate quite readily.

[SwampDonkey]

bitternut, are you confusing it, possibly, with river birch?

[bitternut]

Nope Swampdonkey I am not confusing Black Birch with River Birch. Black Birch is quite common in Western NY but River Birch I don't believe is  native to this area. It is available in area nurseries but I have never seen it growing wild, only as a landscape planting. The River Birch I have seen has kind of an orange color bark and the bark peels a lot. They plant it quite a bit to replace White Birch that have been killed by leaf miners.

Here are a couple of pictures of a piece of Black Birch firewood.

[bitternut]

Nyforester are your pictures posted some place? I did not get to see them and feel kind of left out a little. Maybe you could post them in your gallery or send me a pm of where they are.

[nyforester]

bitternut:
I sent you a pm.
Check out the pics in my gallery.
Thanks

[SwampDonkey]

bitternut, nice piece of firewood.  ;D ;) Don't have any black birch up my way, but I've seen it in my travels in Va and such. Some call it cherry birch.

[VT4stry]

Hi guys, I'm new at this so bear with me.

I'm a forester and I've been a sawlog and veneer buyer. The value of black birch varies with region. Some areas grow b. birch very well, as nice as yellow birch, others areas won't.

I had the opportunity to buy major quantities of b.black down south and was told by an experienced buyer from down that way to stay away from it. He wasn't a competitor so I took it as sound advaice. Turns out it can be very wormy.

I've found that b.birch growing on shallow soils is always very poor.

[SwampDonkey]

Welcome to the forum VT4stry. 

Yellow birch doesn't do well here on dry shaly ridges or severly burned sites either and it seems to get alot of nectaria canker on those sites. Stressed I guess.