Looking for a status from the veteran urban log recovery folks

[Marc Thornton]

Hi.  I have been lurking for some time.  I have been considering opening an urban log recovery business attempting to recycle the logs of trees into the highest use possible, hopefully lumber in most cases.  In addition, I see myself taking the opportunity to dry and mill some product into finished products like flooring, etc. 

I have read every thread on the urban forum and it has been some time since the regulars have checked in.  I was wondering how things are in the industry for you and if it is doing better or worse based on the way the economy has been.  I think my biggest concern would be acquiring the logs.  I was thinking that it is a good time to be doing this with local government as they are getting squeezed more and more.  An urban logger would really be of service to them. 

Anyway, hi and thanks for any update you provide. 

[woodmills1]

economy is bad you need sawmill, log pick up, and fire wood to be urban log go to guy


bills paid but no vacay this year



ifin taxes paid in december then all is well

[beenthere]

Welcome to the forum.
From what you have said, there are two important parts of this equation that you have little or no experience. That would appear to be acquiring the trees and peddling the product. Or did I misread something into this?

[Marc Thornton]

Welcome to the forum.
From what you have said, there are two important parts of this equation that you have little or no experience. That would appear to be acquiring the trees and peddling the product. Or did I misread something into this?

That is correct.  I have no experience acquiring trees, just some preliminary conversations with tree services.  There are a few municipal bodies around here as well that could be productive, shade tree committees, etc. 

On the peddling product I am a little less concerned, maybe foolishly.  I have good marketing background so it should not be much trouble on that end. 

[Ironwood]

This "industry" is a LONG way from ANY major profitability. I do it, mostly local, as there is no economy in driving any distance for single (even multiples) logs. I mix it in with several other pursuits and it balances out. If some regulatory state or municiple (sic) body were to put "green waste" regs in place it could help (although I hate the thought of ANY regs) If you cannot use the trucks, cranes, mills for other pursuits it has no economy. The other supply side pressures are bio-mass and firewood. Then there is the "battle" of networking and "helping" some fella/gal with a chainsaw and a truck (fly by night tree service) to understand what is reasonable to ask for a log he/she would otherwise turn into firewood. A log is not worth firewood price because it takes value added to make it into firewood. There is also the trips to see "I have this great log" and drive out and find out it is worthless or NOT even the type tree he though it was. I could go on and on ( I have LOTS of stories). Enough said, for the most part it is cheaper to buy off the landing in a commercial timber job than to invest your time and energy into urban salvage. I could write an article about this (actually had the editor from Woodlot Mag. interested, just too many irons in the fire!!) If you own a tree service and use the approach of "efficiency" of your site crews as the arguement for the little 50-60K grapple truck and a staging yard then the math is a little more clear (you gotta have multiple crews working in the general area). One local service does this and has 3-5 jobs going any given day within 20 miles of each other. One guy in the F-550 runs around grabbing the logs to remove them from the yards.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, but seriously if it aint close, real close and free or almost free it (free is never free when you invest your time/equipment) it is really not worth it. I have been at every side of wood, logs, timber, milling, drying, storing (there is a cost to carrying inventory), and retailing things made from these logs. There is little economy to it. Looks/ sounds great in theory but there is just not a whole lot of margin in it. Profitability and steady somewhat predicable margins are what make for good business plans, in this pursuit everything is a "one off". Businesses thrive on scales of economy, networks of known people, dependability, and consistent flows of goods and services.

I have a saying that sums up most situations like this, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion", we all hear about one or a few instances where someone hit a "home run" on an urban log, but the reality is you gotta go thru a TON of junk to get that one. FYI, you asked : Sorry

         Ironwood

[zopi]

Isn't the lehigh valley basically surrounded by giant decduous forests, and most of pennsylvania covered in oak, cherry, maple, and walnut?  Target rich environment, but fishing them out of tree service waste is a quicker way to starve to death than farming...Believe me, I own a tree service, and we do not bring in many pretty logs...buttload of firewood, though..
If you have some money loose, pick yourself up a sawmill, and play with it, make some lumber and dry it...then see if you can find a niche market, if nothing else, you have a great hobby that is better than going to a gym to work out...maybe you do alot of business maybe not, but in this economy, I would not put all my eggs in that basket...

[Marc Thornton]

I definitely want the truth.  Keep it coming, please.  What I don't lack is passion for not having this wood go to firewood or mulch unless it is the last resort.  I'm intested in the history of the trees, being more green, keeping things local, and producing pieces of furniture, art and other items that will be lasting memories. 

What I am hearing you say is that it is going to take time to develop, maybe more time than I could possibly think it will take.  My business plan had 6 months to a year to do that and what I am hearing you and thinking that maybe it is more like 18-24 months depending on how hard charging I can be and how quickly I build support for the movement.  I have a lot of faith in the ability to build momentum behind the movement by using marketing and public relations to support it. 

It seems there are a few dozen of these businesses that have managed to be very successful and then hundreds of folks who pursue it more as a hobby.

I do feel that the local area is a prime area and if I can make a good and lasting connection with the local governments and the good arborists in the area that it can be a viable, just maybe a longer ramp up than I expected. 

[zopi]

Oh, I applaud your aims, but urban timber alone is a tough row to hoe...you will definitely need to be more diverse than just lumber...we do not add to the three or four billion bdft of lumber rotting in landfills...have saved fifty to a hundred tons this year...it either becomes mulch, firewood or lumber...very often, one tree becomes all three....
There is a good bit of niche lumber to be taken out of urban forestry...I just hauled in a few tons of spalted norway maple, and while there is no recoverable lumber in it, I can certainly chainsaw turning blocks out of it and stash them to dry...especially as I just stopped at woodcrafters for some anchorseal and had a giggle fit over lumber prices...a block of spalted soft maple for seventy bucks... lol
I don't want to discourage you, but as a startup, one product or service alone is not going to generate much cash flow...A swing mill with a slabber and a little box trailer and an old toyota pickup truck would be a nice setup for recovering urban timber...especially the monster trunks no one can deal with...you might get set up, work a deal with some tree services, build a couple of small kilns (talking a couple hundred bdft) to dry specialty stuff, and start making rustic and art furniture, and selling it as you do sawmill demos, which are killer advertising for a sawmill service, work and build some capital and add a mobile hydraulic bandsaw to the works, and go from there....maybe some bundled firewood on the side.(didja know burning firewood is carbon neutral? Not many people do...recover the brush for mulch, the firewood for heat, and saw what lumber you can, and the tree will have processed CO2 in excess of its expenditure by burning during its lifecycle...)
A nice adverising thing to to is to keep a supply of dry hardwood slabs and whack them off in a random fashion shape, sand, coat with mineral oil, making a bread or cheese board, and give them to customers as gifts...it is really cool when it came from their trees...

[beenthere]

marc
Keep thinking of this as a hobby plan, and a distant possibility of a business plan. You will be less disappointed. ;)

[zopi]

Less disappointed...I like that...
There are a bunch of folks out there making a living sawing, who started out as hobbyists...but they started as hobbyists...and from what I can see, not all that many are competing on the open market, but doing specialty amd custom work.

[Marc Thornton]

I totally agree that it is more than one product and that I want to get as far down the value chain as possible with as much product as I can.  I have a woodworking background and plan to make benches, furniture, and other retail end products as well. 

Really 5-7 sources of revenue:
green lumber and turning stock
firewood(I hope not too much)
mulch
sawdust
air and kiln dried lumber (and kiln drying as a service if there is value in it)
milled lumber (stair treads, flooring, paneling, mouldings, etc)
finished furniture


I would like to do full circle kind of stuff where the trees that come off a site become lumber and are some re-utilized at the finished site.  I could also see this evolving into some salvaged lumber and architectural salvage possibly as well. 

I get your point about less disappointment.  I have a lot of passion for this it has been kicking around with me for years in my melon.  I get the reservation and that is one of the reasons I am posting here to hear more.

I am wondering from the tree service folks here about what they do with the logs.  Is firewood just an effort to recoup some revenue out of the larger part of the tree and the labor involved.  If a service would pick up the logs in a timely fashion with little or no damage to the property is that a savings that you can pass along some of to the end customer and save some for yourself? 

My plan is to have a truck with crane or knuckle boom and also to have a log arch that I can pull with some blocking and a winch if needed for hard to reach areas.  I would also have a drop yard and am considering working with local municipalities yard waste recycling centers. 

[zopi]

From the tree service perspective...yeah, alot of firewood becomes a profit center, or at least a way to keep employees busy when things are slow...and to many, it is just waste..not economical to separate sort and sell...maybe if I were a little bigger, I could sell some stuff off as biomass fuel...

[Ax- man]

I have to agree with replies posted here . I am also on the tree service side in regards to this urban log recovery . We very seldom get anything that is worth milling into lumber. Tree services for the most part deal in the removal of poorly structured, weak wooded trees that are unsuitable for lumber  or ones that are diseased or are very rotted with hollowed out main stems. If that isn't enough you have to deal with tramp metal buried inside the wood. Tree service = removal of unwanted undesirable trees.

If we do get our hands on some prime wood like Oak and Cherry it will still be turned into firewood that can be sold for top dollar for firewood. We don't get much money for a good saw log from a sawyer. For us it is better to turn it into firewood because the turn around is quicker than trying to make lumber and then drying that lumber and trying to sell it.

I have been playing around and the numbers don't really add up. It seems the average price for rough sawn common tree species hardwood lumber is 2.50 to $3 per board foot from a real production mill. That just just doesn't seem like enough money to run big trucks to pick up logs and then mill those logs with a small portable mill and then  dry those logs.  A guy would have to do a fantastic amount of volume to make a small operation pay for itself. If you had to buy, cut and haul standing timber looks like you would be in the hole and just couldn't make any money.

There is an outfit here that will pick -up semi loads of urban wood for free or give a token payment for good stuff . I think they are in the pallet business and I imagine the margins are very slim in that business.

Like I said I am in the tree service biz. So if anything I have stated is incorrect please correct me. I have just been dabbling on the forestry side of urban logging. I have tried to sell mulch with no luck . Making lumber without buying trees would be unprofitable for us. Firewood pays better over the long haul. Making log or rustic furniture and chainsaw carving seems to have some potential  for me anyway. To me doing our tree trimming is more profitable than taking down and removing trees.

[DR Buck]

There is almost no market for green or air dried lumber regardless of the species.   If you plan on marketing any lumber you will need a kiln.  If you want to make money off of dried lumber a solar kiln will not turn product quick enough to make a profit.  You will need to invest in at least a dehydrator type kiln.

You'll bust your a$$ trying to market firewood.  Around here buyers want it seasoned, split, delivered and stacked.  Thats a lot of work just to bring in $125 TO $200 a cord.  Something I'm not willing to do.

Without a full production shop you may find it hard to compete with the box stores for stair treads and flooring.

As already stated, recovery of urban logs is not an easy task. YOU WILL NEED EQUIPMENT!.  

• Trailer with a method to load,  efficiency of a knuckle boom & grapple can't be beat.
• Log Arch
• some sort of winch
• all of the assorted blocks, pulleys, ropes, etc...

Oh yea, woodworkers  are cheap.  You have to have real special products to turn high dollar.

I do ok in the lumber sales, but even with a dehydrator kiln small niche markets are all your likely to find.  Fortunately I live in an area far less effected by the current economic situation and make a fair amount of cash with my custom saw milling and selling lumber from recovered urban trees.  However, I still have my day job and would not be able to make a full time living at it.

[Marc Thornton]

I definitely appreciate everyone's input here.  I feel like I am not looking to turn firewood into lumber, I'm more looking to prevent lumber from turning into firewood.  I see your point that 90% of the tree service trees are not lumber material, maybe 85% if you consider turning material as well.  That just means I need to convince more services, municipalities, home owners of the value. 

  If a service did not have to spend the time to cut the logs into firewood size on the customers site, they would be saving an hour of the teams time in cutting, man handling, and cleanup per tree.  Obviously this all gets charged to the customer today.  Eliminating this would mean one of two things, a lower bill for the customer or more profit for the tree service, or a little of both.

I feel like firewood is just a way to recoup some $$$ out of the material.  If you look at the numbers, here is what I figure.  Note, this is the 10% or less of lumber worthy logs to firewood.

A cord is 4'x4'x8' = 128 cubic feet of wood, bark, and air.    Sold for $200 after being seasoned for 6-12 months and delivered. 

128 cu ft * 12 board ft in a cubic foot = 1536 board ft - 30% for bark and air.

30% = 462 bd ft of bark and air = 1074 bd ft. of good wood remaining.

So to get the same value per cord you need to charge $.20 per board foot gross. 

I'm sure that it takes more labor to make the boards, maybe 3 to 4 times as much labor depending on the comparison of the equipment utilized. 

Just talking things out a bit.  Thoughts?
 

[T Welsh]

I have been watching this thread for a week. while I like what you want to do, there are a lot of things that would not work. I also own a tree service and its in your area Coatesville PA. 35 miles west of Philly.
1 If I am going to give you my wood,YOU are going to have to Give me something of equal value! all of our (waste) is recycled. chips,firewood,logs
2. As Ironwood said, the green recycling is underway,but has a long way to go before profitable.
3. What every one else said about this subject is dead on and we are IN the buss. we already have explored the greatest return for any value of any of our products.
4. I have a mill,firewood processor,log truck,bucket truck,chip truck,two dump trucks,two loaders,tools and 30  plus years in the industry. well over a 250,000 in equipment and also have employees,payroll and taxes alone over 100.000.
5. With that said, how are you going to compete with me! because that is what you are really going to be trying to do. I know that you could get some logs or firewood from the local townships or towns around you for free, but you will have to have a storage area,you will need a loader,you will have to pay taxes on land ect.

I still wish you good luck, and I would like to see people wise up and recycle everything we use. but the economics doesnt add up to be profitable. Only is the government gets involved will it become that way, and if they do LOOK OUT, they will screw it up,like they do with everything else. Good luck. Tim

[Ironwood]

T. Welsh,

DEAD on.

 You can do anything if you have deep pockets and no/little need for income. There is also opportunity cost of your time/talent. It is a zero sum game when you calculate capital cost, capital equipment, all the variable expenses, cash conversion cycle, and current goberment hassles (regs, DOT >:(, etc...)

Goberment regulation is the the only way to "drive" the economy of this on any level. As stated, that is NOT a good idea as beauracrats can screw about just about anything. :  


Ironwood

[Marc Thornton]

I have no intention to be competing with tree services.  I feel like your service with a mill is the exception, maybe 5% of tree services go that far.  For those that do not, I hope to compliment them, not compete with them. 

I feel like going to the worksite and picking up the logs takes some burden of cleanup/removal of that portion of the tree.  What would you estimate the time and effort in man hours to be in cleaning up the log portion of a tree?  I think I will need to go spend some time with a service or two to see if there is value I can add for them. 

I also see the ability to come at it from the customer side.  If the customer comes to me to ensure their tree is recycled, I can then refer them to a tree service, bringing a customer to the tree service.

I have a lot of thought into this and am glad to have you all to talk it out with.  There is a lot more thinking and planning before I would jump into this with both feet. 

Marc.

[mikeb1079]

there are some excellent posts here.  i do what you are proposing but w/o any financial incentive.  for me, it's a fun hobby.  i watch craigslist and talk to tree service folks etc...and there are some "free" logs to be had.  i say "free" because as ironwood pointed out if you're using your equipment (trucks, trailers, chainsaws) it's not free.  anyways, i enjoy milling and woodworking so for me it's worth it.  that said, most of the cheap logs are just that, cheap logs.  they're crooked, full of metal, short, rotten, or cracked.   :D :D  (wait a minute, why do i saw them?  oh yeah i love it  8))  this significantly affects yield from these logs.  for me personally it's no biggie but if i were trying to sell the lumber, no way. 

also i'd like to second the comment about the lack of market for green/air dried lumber.  in my area there's a ton of craigslist ads for air dryed lumber for dirt cheap.  fact is no one wants to buy lumber they can't use in their project right away.  if you do try to sell lumber you'll need a kiln to dry it properly.

what i'd suggest is getting started milling with a nice used mill and some free logs.  build a solar kiln if you're handy and then try to sell some lumber just to see what happens.  if you can't move any product your investment is still fairly small, i'd think around maybe 5k?  just my 02 cents

[Burlkraft]

marc
Keep thinking of this as a hobby plan, and a distant possibility of a business plan. You will be less disappointed. ;)

I find that if I have no expectations at all things seem to work out.
I have done quite a bit of sawing for others this year and I really don't know why.
I do know that if you quartersaw for one guy, the rest will follow.
I've Q S more oak this year than I have in all the others combined.

I really wish I had a hydraulic mill....

I am getting old   ;D

[DR Buck]

    I am getting old   

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[metalspinner]

Marc,

The last posts by mike, ironwood and twelsh are great summaries of the problem.  Without gearing up completely for every process and having the training and experience neccesary to safely complete each job, you will be just the middleman.

I am more in Mike's camp and have stacks and stacks of sawn lumber that I will never use in my lifetime  The handling of the lumber is where I get burdened down with time. I have no handling equipment, so everything gets handled off the saw, onto the trailer, into the stack.  That's three times per board.  If we saw for two days, I run out of trailers and stack on the ground. That's another handling of the board. My back is aching just thinking about it. :(

The tree services I've had the most luck with are the small pickup truck guys.  They cannot handle the big logs and appreciate me getting them out of there.  But then they see how I do it with my pickup truck, trailer and winch and set themselves up to do it.  I never hear from them again. :

Over the years I have handed out countless cards for free log removal, but rarely do I get a call back from the pros.  Most of my logs are ones I happen across driving around town and just knocking on the door. I have an army of people on the lookout, too - the mailman, UPS driver, friends, etc.

What would you estimate the time and effort in man hours to be in cleaning up the log portion of a tree?

From driving up to the log and having it on the trailer takes me about 20 minutes per log.  That assumes I can pull next to it. The length and diameter doesn't ussually matter.  If the log needs to be staged, who knows??? Too many variables.  You can look in my gallery and see plenty of different sized logs and circumstances I have been in and the way I load the trailer.  But when it's time to load - 20 minutes.  If the logs are small enough to squeeze a few on the trailer, then the time comes down just a bit because of reduced set up time. Then another 20 minutes to bind everything down and pack up the truck for the road.

Now someone like twelsh with his brigade of equipment will be totally different.

Every minute of work you do free takes a minute of payed work from the tree service.  That's why they will not call me.  It reduces the amount of money on their contract with the homeowner. If the homeowner knows he does not have to pay for full cleanup, then they will not listen to the tree service's sales pitch.

Another problem I have encountered when working with the tree service is that the log needs to be gone NOW.  If they are not payed until the log is out of the yard, they don't want to wait for you to figure out when you will be there.  And can you afford to stand around all morning or afternoon at the job sight waiting on them to complete the job?  If you are subcontracted by the tree service to remove logs they are payed to remove, how does that effect their insurance? What if you run over a sprinkler head in the yard, or roll a log into the corner of a shed, or the unthinkable happens?  Those are the things on the tree service guy's mind.

There is a place for guys like us.  It's just not on a grand scale.

Fortunately, I am not trying to make a living with it. But, I have a mountain of wood at my disposal, the neighbors have yet to complain about it, my back muscles get a nice workout several times a year, the waste gives me enough firewood to burn each year plus some to give away, and I never have to pay retail for hardwoods again. 8)

With all that said, where there's a will there's a way. I look forward to learning how you traverse through your idea and make it happen.

[mikeb1079]

a couple more thoughts on this subject and i'm compelled to comment because i thought along the same lines as you do when i first started this:

1.  working with tree services/municipalities to pick up logs from a jobsite in my experience doesn't work.  why?  because typically when they are doing a job they need the tree removed NOW, not in a couple hours when you get off work.  in your retired then maybe you could work it out but it's not as easy as it sounds.  also, many of the best trees/logs simply cannot be brought down in 8, 10, or 12' sections.  i've seen many beautiful straight trees with perfect sawlog trunks chunked up into 2' pieces because neither i nor the tree service owns a crane, and they can't be dropped on someone's lawn/driveway/etc and even if they were you can't skid em out!   :D  (and log arches ain't gonna handle a 30" by 10' chunk of white oak)

2.  perhaps rethink your attitude towards turning logs into firewood.  i thought exactly as you do now and regarded it as wasteful/foolish/etc.  in reality, there's nothing wrong with using a renewable resource to heat our homes.  in many cases considering the quality of the logs and the amount of fossil fueled effort it takes to turn them into lumber using them as fuel makes the most sense.  while i totally agree that landfilling is a shame, utilizing most logs for firewood ain't really a bad thing.

i really don't mean to be negative and hope i don't come across as such it's just that i was very much in the same boat as you a few years back and my experiences have led me make these observations.
cheers
mb

[T Welsh]

Marc, don,t get frustrated,if you have an idea that is strong enough to start asking question about it,KEEP at it and get educated before making the next step,s. What you are thinking of doing is admirable,but there is a lot of work,marketing,wasted trips to look at sites where logs are,insurances(oh yes you have to have at least a million in liability to get near a township or city jobsite),storage and work areas,at least a truck and trailer ect.metalspinner and mikeb, are right on the money and this is the real world.
There are lots of ways to recycle wood or reuse it, a lot of ways to market it too! The green buzz word,is nothing new to the people on this forum,for the most part they have been doing it for a life time. Good luck, Tim

[zopi]

In regards the firewood comment above, something we recently unearthed, is that burning firewood is nearly carbon neutral...consider how much oxygen the tree has converted during its life, and how much carbon dioxide is given off by burning the firewood out of it...
I have taken the attitude of, if it is worth sawing, saw it...if it is firewood...burn it...recover the slabs for kindling and mulch the tops..pulled some really nice wood out of a great big bradford pear tree the other day...gorgeous turning blanks..except for the one which tried to kill me when the hinge broke...I am going to enjoy splitting that one and feeding the stove with it...
Point is, you cannot make the material what it is not..physically or economically...any way you still get to keep it ou of the landfill.

[Stephen1]

Great conversation here for sure, I have just spent the last month cutting and selling and moving all the wood I have salvaged over the last 3 years. I bought lt40h 5 weeks ago and put 70  plus hrs on it and I have a real job.
I advertised on Kijiji trying to sell the wood as lumber, and firewood slabs, and as table slabs.
Here is what I discovered in my endeavour which is very similar to what everyone has said.
The lumber will not sell unless kiln dried, I have a few thousand bd ft of white and red, oak, maple, silver, norway, elm, and walnut, that did not sell,  so I have taken 2000 bd ft of walnut branches to to the local kiln to be turned into flooring, she also has a shaper to 6 side my wood. as some of you can imagine it was a huge amount of work to turn branches that were any where from 2 ft to 10 ft in length into 3-4-5 in  wide lumber.
The only wood I could sell was to slab any logs into as wide as my saw would allow wich is 28 inches, we did slab some bigger logs 30-45 inches with a chain saw mill. Some sold, not as many as I would have liked, but we did sell.
I had over 200 emails to my add and only 12 people bought wood. Some of these emails had 20 plus replys back and forth, and then nothing, I think they just wanted someone to email them, they were lonely , I guess :D
The walnut comes from buddy that hunts down people that want the walnuts removed, and he has tree service guy with a pick up that he pays to drop the tree, and then he slabs them on site, calls me to help remove the slab, sometinmes we have hired a crane they are so big, and I will also take any branches that we think we can turn into ART and flooring.
As you can imagine with 70 hrs on the mill, I had a lot of time to think about where I was going with this business.
The same spot that everyone has said so far, except you need to think of this urban green wood as art, table slabs and large ones for sure, 30 plus inches wide, 40 is better is really the only way to make money, and i am not sure you can make it at that. You need big equipment to move these big logs to get the big slabs out of them.
I sold some red oak character slabs 42 in wide for 600 a piece but you do not get many of them.
I have 3 white oak slabs 44 inches x 13 ft that I tried to sell for 1000 and 1500 that people loved but will not part with that kind of money, and as one guy said, how do I get it home to work on it. One of them will make a nice table for my cottage , because I have some equipment to move it.
There is my 5 cents on the subject

[woodmills1]

don't leave firewood out of your model

most yard trees are not good enough for any thing better

[Marc Thornton]

Thanks for continuing to talk this through.  I definitely feel more educated about all of this and think it is just making me line everything up better before jumping in with both feet. 

I feel like I need almost a full years operating capital to ensure that I have the time to establish the market.  There is no way I am ruling anything out of the equation including firewood, wood chip mulch, and many others.  I definitely want to be more creative than just grade lumber, i have no misconceptions about how much of the wood can be converted to high value items.  I believe I have a pretty exhaustive list of products that can be made out of urban logs. 

I think the biggest thing all of your discussion has done is modifying my plan to acquire some of the equipment first, like a crane truck to bring logs in and prove that I can actually acquire the logs, the obvious first hurdle.  Without the logs, there is no worry about products or marketing the products.  If I can spend 2-3 months getting a starting stash of logs, making the connections with tree services and taking that time to get the word out before making the big jump.  Like everyone has said, starting as a hobby or weekend deal then before moving to a full time gig. 

I definitely feel it is a long road and the firstyear or two or three might be very difficult.  I believe in what i am loking at doung which helps a lot.  I just want to make sure it can work before i put my whole self into it.  I see the place for this and see the benefit to the community and the overall forest resource.  On top of that, the value of spreading conservation, craftsmanship, and wood art are at my core so much so that I would really enjoy if the endeavor could support something like the urban tree forge in the Pittsburgh area at some point.

Thanks so much for all of your time and thoughts into this.   

Marc.

P.S.  I would really like to hear from Darren or Kelvin if they are still around too to see how they are surviving. 

[woodmills1]

I started in 86   pick up truck and stihl farmboss 045

no start up or capital, but back then a full time job and insurance

[5quarter]

Some very good advice you're getting here...for what it's worth, I'll add a few thoughts.

    Your main goal is to salvage good timber otherwise destined for the landfill. Forget business models...There is no realistic business model on the planet (For reasons stated previously) that would not end in bankruptcy for you. you want to salvage urban timber...ok. Then scare up some basic equipment (trailer, cables chains, a saw etc...) and go get some. Once you have a few decent logs at your place, decide how you could use them. do you have a talent for woodworking? if so, maybe after they're sawn and dried you can make some interesting things that you can either use or sell at a modest profit. remember that drying wood takes time so what ever you have cut today will not be ready for roughly a year. so your biggest investment the first year is going to your spare time; making contacts, getting your logs sawn and of course picking up logs. during that year, save up to buy a used saw. A year from now, if you still are interested, go buy the saw. if not, you haven't lost much. once you have a saw and know some people in the tree biz and have a small stock of good lumber, you have a lot of options. By then you will have a much better idea of what it is you would like to do. as others have said, you must diversify if for no other reason than to keep buying more tools and equipment. after a few years, you may be in a position think about a business model that is actually viable. in the meantime, get out there and rescue some of that timber and by all means, keep your day job. Don't be hasty...and don't be discouraged. TWelsh is exceptional in the tree service biz in that he pursues all the revenue souces the trees offer. most are 1-3 man outfits that would love nothing better than someone like yourself doing a portion of their work for free. Member Daren has never paid for a single log in his life, but he has a huge amount of lumber that is his inventory for the wide variety of things he produces and sells.
www.nelsonwoodworks.com
   You will always be able to sell a little lumber here and there, but really, the highest value of wood is always in the objects that people use. Do not look to lumber sales as a viable way to make $$. and by all means do not think in terms of months...think in years.

Best of luck
   

[Kansas]

All good advice, but there is one more thing to think about I didn't see mentioned here. We get several calls a day from people wanting us to take trees down in their yard. For some, they have priced what tree removal will cost and say "you can just take it if you take it down" to wanting to finance the tree removal by selling me the log. It can be problematic for a tree company not to immediately to remove the tree. And for a number of home owners, they are going to get suspicious if they see logs being removed. It also puts the tree trimmer in a bad position. If he leaves it somewhere where you tear the yard up getting it out, he will take the blame for it. If you take the log he might well get a phone call from an irate customer who just got his bill, wanting to know how much he sold that log for. That goes for cities too. I have a tree trimmer that occasionally hauls in a few logs, either to have us cut them up for him, or sell to us or hold them for the walnut buyer to come in if they are walnut. He does know what makes a decent log. He logged one off the city right of way that was a very nice walnut. In the end, he had to cut it up for firewood because people in the city complained that he was making money off the taxpayer's dime. The city wouldn't let him haul it off in log form.

[zopi]

That is one thing that I have dealt with in tree service, I generally let it be known ahead of time that I own a mill, and that their wood will be recycled into lumber or firewood, and this is usually met with enthusiasm...people like to recycle...I have at times cut a little off my estimate fir folks who really cannot afford the service, by buying their logs...not because I needed to, but brcause it was the right thing to do, and I am always up front about it...some have bought lumber from me out of thier trees, just because thst is a pretty cool thing to do...
Most folks are just hapoy that the wood is not wasted...

[5quarter]

Kansas...That is a very good point about dealing with landowners perceptions. I have several friends who own tree services that provide me with some pretty nice logs, but I always talk with the landowner before I do anything. My friends good reputation is on the line as I am generally the last person the landowner sees regarding the removal. I treat them with every courtesy and take care to damage nothing and clean up before I leave. I make sure I get a handshake and a smile from every landowner. If you are able to work with a tree service, Treat the landowner like they are your client. you not only strengthen your own reputation but the reputation of the tree service, which is every bit as important.

[Al_Smith]

 I don't own a tree service nor do I work for a tree sevice .Having said that I'm closely in contact with one and here's what I can say .

Most times the services will only be interested in giving away the less desirable wood such as cottonwood ,soft maple ,linden etc .Poor quality firewood

The better varieties such as hickory ,oak,black locust etc  many will sell for firewood in the off season for around 160 a cord .Now to somebody around a large metro area like Philly that might not sound like much .However say 3-4 cords a week or so keeps beans on these guys table when work is slack and the wolf is howling at the door .

You got to watch urban trees with a mill because most of them have hidden treaures like nails ,dog chains and all kinds of scape metal that just plays havoc with a bandsaw blade if you try to salvage the lumber .

[Tdawg]

Hey Marc,

You mentioned that you are prepared to look at all avenues-lumber, firewood, mulch, etc. I think you should talk to some local clearing and grubbing companies. As stated, there are a lot of variables in dealing with tree services. The principle behind clearing and grubbing is simple...get rid of the trees. They would much rather bring you a load than pay tipping fees at the landfill. In my experience, you get a lot of junk that is only good for chipping but you also get the good stuff-you have to take the good with the bad. I have taken a 20 yard load of boughs and roots followed a little later by a tri-axle load of 36"x12' hardwood sawlogs. The thing is, you don't need a yard full of equipment for picking up and hauling the wood, it is delivered to you (for free). You can then process it or recycle it as you see fit.

[~rf~]

This is a wonderful thread!! I have been contemplating this very subject for over a year now. It's great to hear feedback from experienced urban sawyers and foresters. In discussions with a few people, it seems that it would mainly be a niche market catering to those people with the same green mentality and regional woodworkers looking for material. The one thing I have come to realize .... people with money will spend money for a product that is marketed to their desire. I've witnessed it first hand countless times.

I look forward to reading more in the forum and continuing my education.

To all the life long woodsmen......Thanks for all the knowledge and info

[shelbycharger400]

like above said..
If you cant use some or any of the byproducts, your up a creek
I built my one mill, still working on the issues.   I will sell some stuff to pay for a small portion of gas involved.  My first foremost plan is to cut stock for my kitchen remodel. Cabinets and flooring ect.  I had a general disgust with whats at the lumber yard, I can cut material, and use the ones i want, sell the others, and what waste i have in wood chunks goes up the chimney, some boards for various things around the house, and some to sell, the sawdust to the compost site.   i have very little on heavy equipment.   Many days go by when i see 4 to 8 ft long logs, of all kinds from firewood up to 3 ft dia , fresh dumped off at the compost site..   :    some are junk,   some are solid.   i have collected 2 + ft dia ash logs... i had to cut them in half just so i could load them.     most of it will go to firewood as they have sat for 2 years now.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

I work with four tree services and a large land clearing company to acquire logs. Two services are of the pickup truck variety and two a good size running multiple crews. The clearing outfit is huge and could easily supply all my needs but they are only practical if they are working close by. I don't expect to get something for nothing so I have an agreement with them that seems fair to all parties involved. First they bring me the logs. I don't have the time to chase them down in a timely manner and the larger operations have the means to move them ( grapple truck ). I do the sawing ,drying, planing and marketing. I sell my lumber for no more than half the price a woodworker would pay retail, sometimes cheaper. When all is said and done we divide the proceeds. The percentages vary but I always get at least half. A poor quality common species I will take much more just to recover the cost. The tree service makes some money on something they were going to pitch with little expense to them ( they are located about a mile from my mill so transport isn't much ). The land clearing outfit will give me anything I want but I have to show up with my trailer. I usually tip the loader. Trees from the land clearing outfit are usually of good to fantastic quality as opposed to the tree services. I sell everything I saw. Some brings a good price and some not so much, but it is always better than firewood prices. There are plenty of woodworkers out there that cannot afford to spend mega bucks on wood for large projects but are tickled pink to get wood that would work for smaller projects at a great price.
I will do anything with wood to make a buck except firewood. I have found that you don't find the niche market, it finds you. You will have a customer that needs something you can supply and he tells his friends and so on. You probably would have never thought of that market by yourself.
One thing about working with trees services is the variety of species they encounter.Seems I have sawn one of everything that grows around here including some ornamentals just to see what it looks like. The weirder the wood the easier it is to sell .
I'm not getting rich doing this and I don't do this full time, maybe half my time is spent on this business and the other half is spent running a stable. One thing I am always careful of is to keep my overhead as low as possible. I have bought all my equipment used and waited until a real bargain showed up before buying. If some day things go belly up or I get too old to work I know in every case I can get more for my equipment than I paid for it.
Good luck with your endeavor and take it slow. It's taken me seven years to get this far and I'm still learning.

[ironstumper]

Marc,
My plan is to have a truck with crane or knuckle boom and also to have a log arch that I can pull with some blocking and a winch if needed for hard to reach areas.

        I still have my logrite "Hugo" arch for sale if you're interested. I live in the Grensboro NC area

[Dodgy Loner]

I used to work for a large, international arboriculture company in Augusta, GA. When we did tree removals, we had to pay about $70/load to dump a load of logs at the local tub grinder. We would have loved to have a place to dump the waste for free. But it would have to be somewhere that we didn't have to sort the good logs from the firewood. When we did a removal of a nice hickory or oak, we would dump the wood behind the office and the locals would come cut it up for firewood for free. We were NOT in the firewood business and had no intention of being in the firewood business.

I did salvage a few cherry trees while worked there. We removed some very nice trees that made me cringe to see them go to tub grinder, but I didn't have the equipment that I needed to be able to save many of them. I always felt that a place like that would be an excellent place to start an urban tree salvage business. If you offered a place that tree services could dump their logs for free, you would be covered up with material in a matter of weeks. Of course, it would have to be in a convenient location, which would mean high property costs and taxes.

[dboyt]

I have been salvaging lumber for years.  The right equipment is key.  I'm just now gearing up for flooring and trim which, I hope, will be a huge step forward.  Try to diversify your sources as well as your markets.  Running a portable mill that I can either use at my place or move to a customer's location has been very helpful.  I've even milled logs in a customer's driveway right in town.  I am also a certified logger and it helps get some jobs to be able to cut trees out in the woods or pasture (never near a structure).  Trailer flooring, barn siding, fencing have been pretty good markets for air dried lumber.  Don't forget to include insurance in your plan, especially if you are moving logs or milling on someone else's property!

[Overlength]

You have to follow your passion. The wood and wood business by nature has many variables. Many years of experience pays off in this business. You should work with someone doing this successfully for a while, and or start with the basics, a truck and trailer, small mill, chainsaw, solar kiln. Plan of spending lot of time not making money until you find your niche. Hard to make profit with just small unsteady volume regular KD lumber. Certainly not full time. Need huge inventory to make enough full time. Need to develop steady business and reliable customers and supply, which takes time because of all the variables. Which keeps it interesting, every day learn something else.

[Rob Bocik]

Many many good posts here. Your question has many questions that have been answered in previous posts. I did not read all of them and I am not sure of your need for this venture to produce $$$$. Bu,burls are always desirable IF you can educate local tree services burls will produce $ with a less effort and equipment.

[skinnyest]

I am also looking to do the same thing.I see this thread is kind of old so im not sure if it will get bumped up with this reply.I am currently a towboat capt and make pretty good money but im very tired of beaing away from home all the time.I have 150 tree services within 25 miles of me.I called 50 of them to see if there was any intrest in my plan.40 said I could have the wood they cut or pay a small price.One even said he would concider paying me to take them away.I also called 50 cabinet makers,furniture makers,pallet makers and contractors and got good results from them too.I am working on a way to remove logs from home owners yards without causing damage.once I get that far I will call the rest of the tree services.A fellow down the road from me has a band mill and works pretty cheep.I figure on using him to cut till the business makes enough to buy my own.I found a fellow that makes counter tops and only uses half of his building so I can lease the other half realy cheep to put in a few small kilns and store the finished wood.For finished wood I figure on starting with some top end homeowner plainers jointers saws ect.and move up to more industrial modles as the business grows.Im hopeing to work it part time for 3 years while working on my boat I work for 2 weeks then get a week off.After 3 years im hopeing to have enough equipment to go full time.I have already applied for an llc. and working on getting insurance.I want to start of doing it by the books so I don't get the sticker shock of insurance taxes etc.all at one time.I guess the big question is what am I missing?

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum
Have you considered the log arch? Remove logs from lawns without dragging them across the lawn to the trailer. See Logrite sponsor ad in left column.

Also, search for the DanG-Deadheader method of lifting logs onto trailers. Just position the trailer so the pull is straight away from the tongue hooked to your vehicle. No fear of tipping the trailer then. One link..
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17613.0.html

Just be cautious that the weight of the log on the tail of the trailer doesn't lift the car/truck so its brake doesn't hold. We lost a great FF member when that happened to him, and he got caught under the runaway car/trailer and dragged to his death. Just retrieving a log to saw.

[dboyt]

Thanks for the sobering note about lifting the the rear of the truck.  Lots of ways to get hurt or killed in this business.  I think I'll weld a pair of screw jacks on the back of the trailer as outriggers, if it ever stops raining.  I've lifted the back of my truck enough for it to start rolling when I loaded a tractor on a trailer.  Really gets your attention!  Takes a lot of different tools to get a log out of a yard cleanly and safely.  My favored tool for big logs is a Lewis (chain saw) winch, and parbuckle up a ramp on the side of the trailer.  I use a similar technique to load the logs onto my sawmill.