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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: maddog on February 15, 2017, 06:51:19 PM

Title: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: maddog on February 15, 2017, 06:51:19 PM
 I am very new to this and I thank you very much for any help you can give.
I have been offered a deal to cut up someone else's logs using their sawmill and we would sharing the money that was made.
The logs come from a tree removal company doing mostly residential work.
Some of the logs have been down for a couple of years and new logs coming in on a weekly basis.
There are cherry, oak, maple, pine, and this is in the north eastern US.
My question is are the older logs worth sawing and is there a rule of thumb, or a reference based on species that would help me out?
Thank you
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: fishfighter on February 15, 2017, 07:06:24 PM
I would say it all depends on what type of log and if they are on direct contact with the ground. Also, yard tree logs love to have nails in them.

You could always take a maul and knock the heck out of them to see if they are soft or hard.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on February 15, 2017, 07:27:57 PM
Welcome to the forum!  I'd try to pin down some of the potential risks so you could gauge the situation more accurately.  Running someone else's mill, who's responsible for broken blades, broken machinery, etc?  I'd take fishfinder's advice and take a look at some of those logs.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: WV Sawmiller on February 15, 2017, 07:54:07 PM
Maddog,

   I agree with Chugiak (even though I can't pronounce his handle) on being careful to cover the liability and mill costs. Other than that sounds like an old fashioned share-cropping agreement (which were not always bad for either party).

   Fishfighter is right about the wide range of conditions and log types. A dead white oak log might be good for several years while a pine on the ground easily might not be good after less than one season. Also was it in direct contact with the ground or held up by a root ball and the top, etc.

   This does not sound like a bad deal and I hope you iron out the details and it works well for both of you.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: ozarkgem on February 15, 2017, 08:30:58 PM
Work out who pays for the blades. Metal is a sure bet. Get a metal detector to start with.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: boscojmb on February 15, 2017, 09:21:31 PM
Quote from: maddog on February 15, 2017, 06:51:19 PM
My question is are the older logs worth sawing and is there a rule of thumb, or a reference based on species that would help me out?
Thank you

Oak logs in the North East can last for years. After a while the bark will fall off and the sapwood will rot, but the heart wood will still be good.

Pine logs will last over the winter, but go bad quickly over the summer. On a 70°+ day you can hear the grubs chewing away at them. The hotter it gets the faster they chew. Blue stain sets in quickly in hot weather.

Maple is no problem sitting over the winter. It goes bad pretty quick in the warm weather. Maple is the opposite from oak it seems to spalt from the inside out (or at least it all goes bad at the same time).

I have not cut enough Cherry to state as fact, but I suspect that it does not last for years in log form.

I hope this helps.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: maddog on February 16, 2017, 05:30:16 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Kbeitz on February 16, 2017, 06:13:01 AM
I new at saw milling but last year I cut a very large white pine
that fell over 7 years ago. It made great mantles. Up in Williamsport
Pa people are always looking for river logs that are over 100 years old.
i just got some walnut logs that laid on the ground for 12 years.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: WV Sawmiller on February 16, 2017, 07:23:37 AM
Kbeitz,

  What were the conditions on that pine? Inside/outside? Was it in the shade/Sun? Off the ground? Bark on/off? That sounds like a long time for a pine to last in this part of the world. I tried to cut a nice whack of WP last summer that had been down and stacked under a shade tree for 18 months and they had a big sawyer grub every 2-3 feet. You could sit there and hear them chewing. Would have made sheeting and maybe some character laden mantels but no good for framing which is what the customer wanted.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on February 16, 2017, 07:24:28 AM
Cherry, oak, maple, pine, all 2 yr or less in northeast, saw them.   Most likely to be worth it. 
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Kbeitz on February 16, 2017, 07:35:35 AM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 16, 2017, 07:23:37 AM
Kbeitz,

  What were the conditions on that pine? Inside/outside? Was it in the shade/Sun? Off the ground? Bark on/off? That sounds like a long time for a pine to last in this part of the world. I tried to cut a nice whack of WP last summer that had been down and stacked under a shade tree for 18 months and they had a big sawyer grub every 2-3 feet. You could sit there and hear them chewing. Would have made sheeting and maybe some character laden mantels but no good for framing which is what the customer wanted.

This old white pine died from something and laid on damp grassy
ground. I would have never tried to saw it but I was moving the
logs to the brush pile with my tractor and I seem that it looked
to be solid. I had nothing to loose so I cut it. To my surprise it was
good inside.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/Old_white_pine.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1487248403)
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Czech_Made on February 16, 2017, 08:08:14 AM
I cut an old pine like that, the wood was good but there were quite few - empty - tunnels - in the wood.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Gundog on February 16, 2017, 12:00:07 PM
I have a large fir log down on my property I am guessing on how long but according to the neighbor it fell about 2010 ( I bought the place in 2012) the root ball is holding the trunk end off the ground it is laying in the crotch of some brush and the limbs are stuck in the ground. This log is about 28-30" near the trunk and laying straight as an arrow and not touching the ground except the limbs most of it is 2' off the ground. I have not tried to cut it yet because it is fairly hard to get to and I don't have a mill yet. I figure it is better preserved the way it is and it still has all the bark on it. It may not be any good I won't know until I cut it.

Mike



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43288/20161229_161336.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1483058451) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43288/20161229_160928.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1483058469)
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Brad_bb on February 16, 2017, 03:41:22 PM
So if you have to mill, and don't have any help off bearing, clamping etc., and you have to market and sell the wood too?  Are you going to stack and air dry to try selling green right away?

Are you responsible for fuel, blades, maintenance, clean up?  Do you have to dispose of slabs and saw dust?  It is work.  We cut up our slabs as we go along.  We're not milling as a business so not as much pressure to be quick.  But cutting slabs for firewood takes time.  We also burn our saw dust in a "Vortex burn barrel".  We can burn green dust.  Get the fire going and angle the dust in the barrel.  The heat will help dry out the durst and it burns. 

Yard trees will have nails and ruin bands.  You'll have to learn the nail/metal removal techniques.  I have a whole cart with tools and various methods for removal depending on what it is. Multiple nails or metal can take up an hour or more in a log.

You also have to make stickers and stack your wood neatly for air drying, brushing all the dust off the wood. 
What I'm saying is that it's a lot of work.  Is 50% of the sale price enough to cover your expenses and make enough money to be worth while to you?  I pay my buddy who works with me hourly.  I'd bet he makes more hourly than if he had to wait to get paid from a sale.
Hopefully you'll get some training from the owner.  I guess if he can't mill, it's worth it to have someone running it than just sitting.  Keep track of your time though so you can see if you're doing well or not.  If nothing else if you do it for awhile, it's good experience.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: moodnacreek on February 16, 2017, 07:44:24 PM
logs last longer if kept directly on the ground. in a swamp is better,in a pond is best
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: WV Sawmiller on February 16, 2017, 09:27:36 PM
Moody,

   You need to update your profile so we all know where you are from. While I agree about storing logs in water I strongly disagree with them lasting longer stored on the ground especially species like pine, poplar, maple, etc.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: timcosby on February 16, 2017, 11:55:34 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on February 16, 2017, 03:41:22 PM
So if you have to mill, and don't have any help off bearing, clamping etc., and you have to market and sell the wood too?  Are you going to stack and air dry to try selling green right away?

Are you responsible for fuel, blades, maintenance, clean up?  Do you have to dispose of slabs and saw dust?  It is work.  We cut up our slabs as we go along.  We're not milling as a business so not as much pressure to be quick.  But cutting slabs for firewood takes time.  We also burn our saw dust in a "Vortex burn barrel".  We can burn green dust.  Get the fire going and angle the dust in the barrel.  The heat will help dry out the durst and it burns. 

Yard trees will have nails and ruin bands.  You'll have to learn the nail/metal removal techniques.  I have a whole cart with tools and various methods for removal depending on what it is. Multiple nails or metal can take up an hour or more in a log.

You also have to make stickers and stack your wood neatly for air drying, brushing all the dust off the wood. 
What I'm saying is that it's a lot of work.  Is 50% of the sale price enough to cover your expenses and make enough money to be worth while to you?  I pay my buddy who works with me hourly.  I'd bet he makes more hourly than if he had to wait to get paid from a sale.
Hopefully you'll get some training from the owner.  I guess if he can't mill, it's worth it to have someone running it than just sitting.  Keep track of your time though so you can see if you're doing well or not.  If nothing else if you do it for awhile, it's good experience.

if you get the bark off it will last longer.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Chuck White on February 17, 2017, 07:24:16 AM
A few years back, I sawed two 34-36"X12' White Pine logs that had been peeled and were up off the ground and exposed to the weather for 3 years!

Those logs were as solid and nice as any that I've ever seen!
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: WV Sawmiller on February 17, 2017, 08:36:34 AM
Chris,

   I think the key point here is you said they were kept up off the ground. I can't imagine these same logs being any good if they had been left in direct contact with damp ground.
BTW - I see you mention was the bark not still on?
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: TKehl on February 17, 2017, 10:44:54 AM
How long?  To paraphrase Ron White:  "all the way to the edge of the blade"   :D

I think the posts above drive home, "it depends".  Some pictures would tell a lot.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: moodnacreek on February 17, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
after sawing for 37 years I have experience with decayed logs here in s.e. n.y. when I get to the bottom of pile the logs are always better.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: WV Sawmiller on February 17, 2017, 09:05:14 PM
Moody,

   What kind of logs are you talking about anyway? Your experiences seem to be different than mine. I wonder what is different about the kinds of wood we are used to working with.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: moodnacreek on February 17, 2017, 09:24:01 PM
any kind of log I can think of. it's all about heat and the lack of it. many mills water their logs in  summer. some use sun switch like street lites have to turn off the water. also perforated cloth kept wet.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Rhodemont on March 02, 2017, 08:10:08 AM
With white pine will sawing cants to allow them to start drying and storing them for future use prevent the grubs from destroying the log?
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: Darrel on March 02, 2017, 08:54:52 AM
Most likely because removing bark is always helpful. I'd still keep the cant off the ground.
Title: Re: How long can a log stay a log
Post by: PC-Urban-Sawyer on March 02, 2017, 10:02:18 AM
The cants will tend to check and also split along the sides, leading to degraded lumber when sawn. Best to mill into lumber and properly stack and sticker to begin the proper air drying process.

Good Luck!

Herb