E Classic operating temperature

[firechief]

Just curious as to what temperature e classic owners are running their stoves at ?  I've seen a wide range amonst us and was wondering what temps everyone is at and the reasoning for those chosen temps.  I started mine out late fall running at 190 and just bumped it up to 195 last week when some colder temperatures outside moved in.  If I remember correctly CB also recommends running these stoves at 195.  Thoughts ?  Thanks.

Firechief

[doctorb]

185 - 195

My plumber hopes for a return temp from my basement to the stove of 180 degrees, as he wants that temp or higher in my hot water baseboard pipes.  I don't know where that figure comes from , except of course from him.  Doctorb

[beenthere]

I have hot water heating system, and the gas boiler will maintain that 180° F temp, but I get by just fine with my wood boiler ranging from 100 - 180.
I have been puzzled all along in these discussions of the OWB's thinking the water temp needs to hover around that 180 temp. Have only figured it had something to do with the large reservoir of water being heated. Mine only has a 9 gal reservoir so it is more responsive.

And I don't get big swings in my home heat temperature. Very steady.

[doctorb]

Beenthere-

Central boiler has sent out a temperature sensitive valve to try and keep the temp of the return water to the stove above 150 degrees.  They say that at temps at or below 150 degrees, condensation may be increased which is bad for the boiler.  No confirmation of this.  As my boiler temps never reach that low, except for possibly extended maintenance (not routine), I have no experience with this condensation problem.

[JJ]

I set my e-2300 to 187F.  Never gave it more thought, than this temp would keep my oil boiler off (its set point is 175).

        JJ

[Dean186]

I have my E-classic 1400 set to 180 min - 193 max.

The 193 degree high set point is a maximum temperature without it occasionally overshooting and possibly boiling over.

My indoor boiler is set to it's lowest setting of 140 degrees.

[hockeyguy]

190 seems like a happy medium for me. Hot enough to keep the firebox fairly clean of creosote, but not boiling over.

[jeff4955]

I set mine at 185 .

[firechief]

I sort of have to wonder why CB recommends setting the temperature to 195 in the manual ?

[jchartrand]

I run mine at 195 just for the fact that this is where the boiler seems to run the best, least creosote, least smoke and quickest gassification. Yes sometimes the temp does overshoot to 197 but you must remember that water does not boil untill 212. I have run my stove at this temp for 2 years now and have not once needed to add any water.

[stumper]

Mine came from the factory at 185.  That is where I normally opperate it.  I do occationally bump it to 195 when I am going to work on the boiler (that gives me an extra 54,000 btu's to keep the house warm while I work on it).  Where does the manual say to opperate the boiler at 195?  What vintage is your boiler & manual?

[DouginUtah]

I may be mistaken, but isn't PEX rated for 180° maximum? I'm just asking.

[firechief]

Well I've checked that entire manual and can't find it either, not really sure why I thought CB recommended that.  ??  But at that temperature I sure do burn off alot of creasote, think I'll bump mine back down a bit now though.  Thanks Stumper for pointing that out.  Happy burning all.

[MudBud]

About PEX Temperatures:

http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/index.html

[Holmes]

  Most hydronic heating are designed for 180* water . Baseboard radiation will give off 550 btu's per lineal  foot at 180* but only 280 btu's per foot at 140*. Keeping the boiler temp up around 180* will get you the btu's your boiler says it will deliver.  Holmes

[doctorb]

Mudbuds reference above says its rated for up to 200 degrees.

[DouginUtah]

I guess it depends on the manufacturer. I looked up one I've used and it lists 180°.

[trapper]

My understanding is that the higher the tempetuire of the water the lower the pressure rating of the pex is

[Bioman]

I think you'll find the 180-185 limit is based on empirical testing and the manufacturers attempt to allow for overshooting yet staying under boiling point.  We have several safety set points built in that we learned empirically.  For us the computer limit is 185 and mechanical snap disks at 190 to protect from boiling.  PEX tubing limits are not the concern here.

Beenthere,

The three way thermostatic valve is pretty commonly used to prevent condensation.  The number recommended at Intertek and from the articles I read say the mixer can be set as low as 135. 

[Dean186]

The Central Boiler manual on my unit states a factory default setting of 185 degrees and a range of 170 to 195 degrees.

The following note can be found in bold: "Note: It is not recommended to set the temperature below 185 degrees F."

[upsnake]

Hello,

I have had my e classic 1400 up for a week now. One question that I have is the temp on the controller is saying 185.

I then measured then the temp on the supply side of the HX and it was. I then measured the temp on a brass nipple on the supply line directly before the pump (owb side). and it was 165.

I have a thermometer on my return line, and i measured the temp leaving the HX and both were at 140. That and the supply line numbers both matching i know i am not losing the heat underground.

So my question is, is this normal? haha It seems weird to me that there is 20 degrees difference from the control panel to actual temp.

Thanks
Jay

[doctorb]

Upsnake-

Forgive me, but your numbers and nomenclature onfused me a bit.  Please repost so I can try to help.

What is the distance from your stove to your house?  What diameter pipe, what type of pipe are you using.

First - what is the temperature of the water?  Not the temperature to which the stove is set, but the temp of the water itself as read off the controller.

Next - What is the temp of the water either leaving you stove, or entering your house?  I assume that we ll lose a degree or so in this process, but it should not be significantly off the water temp of the stove.

Finally, what is the temp of the water leaving your basement?

I can't quite put together in your post with which temp goes with which area of measurement.  Sorry, please clarify.

[upsnake]

Sorry didn't mean to make it confusing.

I have 120' of thermopex 1 inch diameter pipe buried 18".

Temp of water as read by the controller = 185
Temp leaving the stove = 165
Temp leaving the basement when the furnace fan is on = 140, when the fan is not on = 165 (give or take a degree).

Hope that helps.

[doctorb]

I have no explanation for the water temp on the controller to read 185 and the water temp as it leaves the stove to be 20 degrees less. I would have your dealer check the stove and the installation. There can not be a 20 degree loss between the stove jacket and the outgoing water flow.  Maybe your controller is faulty.  If those other temps are real, then your unit is not up to temp or running properly.

[upsnake]

That is what i was thinking. Thanks for the confirmation. I am confident that the actual water temp is the real temp. I have measured it with 3 different high quality thermometers.

I will call the dealer tomorrow and ask him about it.

[doctorb]

I might increase your water temp settings and see if I get a corresponding increase in the temp readings. If so, then the thermometer for the controller is off, and the stove senses it's supposed to heat the water to 165, but the reading is erroneously high at 185. Just a guess.

[Dean186]

Temp of water as read by the controller = 185
Temp leaving the stove = 165

It seems weird to me that there is 20 degrees difference from the control panel to actual temp.

Jay,

I have found some inaccuracies in the 5 thermometers I purchased from Central Boiler.  For the analog thermometers, one was 12 degrees off, and the another 3 degrees.  The built in digital furnace thermometer was 7 degrees off.

The 20 degree difference you are reading is an error in one or both thermometers.  However, there will be a difference in the readings because of the way they read the temperature and their location in the stove.  The digital reading displayed on the Firestar controller is measured by a probe that is located in a housing and does not come into contact with the water.  It is also located higher up in the stove and closer to the firebox.  I do not know what this difference is on my stove, because I do not have a thermometer located in the stove water supply at the exit point. 

Thanks for the clarification on your post.  For curiosity, what is HX?

[upsnake]

HX = Heat exchanger.

http://www.gilletttax.com/Jay/owb/

The above link is some pictures of the install.
The second picture is of the thermometer that i installed on the return line right before it goes back into the burner.

The temp on that matches up to the temp as it exits the hx.

I plan on calling the dealer today to talk to them about the temp difference between the controller and the water.

[upsnake]

I just got off the phone with the dealer, and he said the water temp difference is normal.
That basically as long as it is heating the house to not worry about it.

[doctorb]

I respectfully disagree.  Are you getting gasification?  What is the temp inside your RC?  It makes absolutley no sense that the stove is reading a temperature that is never even approached anywhere else in the system.  I have outflow and inflow thermometers at the back of my E-2300.  While there is slight variance between the outflow temp and the controller temp, it's very minor.  I wouldn't care about 2-4 degrees, but 20???

I would be calling CB on this one and tell you dealer you are doing so.  The "As long as its heating your house..." comment is irritating to me.  If your stove is only getting the water temp up to a high of 165, it's not working efficiently.

[upsnake]

I think i am getting gassification. The thermometer for the reaction chamber has gone as high as 1200 degrees.

Does CB actual take calls or just push everything back to the dealer? haha

[doctorb]

I'll let others comment of the RC chamber temp, as I don't have that option.

CB has been very responsive to me on the phone.  Yes, they can tell you that you need to go back to the dealer, but I would not rest with the current situation.  Your unit is only a week old.  Some of this is part of the learning process.  Some of it sounds outside the brackets of what should be expected.

[upsnake]

I just got off the phone with CB, and got the same answer. Basically they said the controller is measuring water higher up with is going to be hotter.

Idk how much i believe it but.....

[upsnake]

I wonder if there is a way to recalibrate the tstat on the controller? 
The one thing that they did say to check is to make sure that the pump is not on backwards, i am confident that it isn't but i will double check. haha

[doctorb]

Reset your controller temps.  what are they set at now?  I would try to increase the temps at the controller and see if you get an similar increase with you thermometer readings.  Need Dean186 to discuss temperature of the e-1400.

[upsnake]

I am not sure sure what you mean by resetting them. It came from the factory at 185. I bumped it up to 192 for a couple days and it raised my actual water temp up to about 171. Then i bumped it back down to 185 on the controller which is where it currently sits.

[doctorb]

So the temp at the thermometer increased the same amount as you increased the controller.   So, either CB is right, and it's normal to have a 20 degree fluctuation in temp from controller to exit pipe water temp, or you temperature guage in the contoller is not callibrated correctly or is defective, becasue when it thinks the water is 185, it's 165. 

[MudBud]

After reading through the entire thread I agree with doctor....For one, if my controller is reading 190 my oil boiler temp is reading within 5 degrees lower.  Also if my temp of the boiler drops to around 140 my oil takes over and its pretty close. 

This weekend I will go out and shoot a couple of points with a digital thermometer to see different areas and post here, ie. Water coming right out of the OWB before the pump and after the pump.  Also the return side right near it. then into the house at the boiler and before the 50 plate exchanger, after and through.

I also don't have a reaction chamber temp probe, wish I did but my E2300 is a Sept 2008 model.

If CB told me that I would not believe them.  I may talk with my local rep, great guy and very knowledgeable about the stoves.

More to follow!

Keith

[upsnake]

I appreciate that Keith.

My dealer is a nice guy, and he has been helpful, but his answer was somewhat of a "it should be ok" thing.

Then when i called CB. At first the receptionist didn't really want to put me through to anybody. Just go back to the dealer. I explained that i already talked to the dealer. So i got to another lady who was very nice but.... Somewhat just sounded like ummm ya that is normal. That is what my stove does.

I don't think it helped when they asked who installed it and I said i did. Oh well. I will wait to hear what your temps are.

[Dean186]

I think i am getting gassification. The thermometer for the reaction chamber has gone as high as 1200 degrees.

Does CB actual take calls or just push everything back to the dealer? haha

I wonder if there is a way to recalibrate the tstat on the controller?

Jay,

The stove switches to high burn mode when it reaches 750 degrees, it is in full gasification at that point and any temperature above that is better.  I found on some loads that the temperature stays around 500 degrees and it is not in gasification mode.  You can open the reaction chamber door and not see the jet like stream of fire.

Short answer IMO:

     above 750 degrees "high burn mode" it's gassifying (not sure that is a word and if so, how do you spell it?) and

     below 750 degrees "low burn mode"  it's trying to gassify, but not there.


My Fire Star controller digital thermometer can not be calibrated.

[upsnake]

Ya i am hitting gassifying mode.

The morning when i load it, this last coupe of times it has struggled a little bit to hit high burn. But i have watched it other times where it is is just calling for heat and it goes right into high burn.


Everything appears to be working correctly with the stove, with the exception of the temp difference in the water. I could turn the stove up to 195, and then get 175 degree water but. Right now it is heating everything and short of continually calling CB and seeing if they give me a different answer i guess it is correct. I don't know.

[doctorb]

When I have called CB, I have spoken to one of two guys, no females.  I am not saying she didn't know what she was talking about, but the puzzle is driving me crazy and I want to know the answer.  I would keep after them.  Ask if there's someone you can email with a question.  It's just doesn't seem plausible to me to have a 20 degree temp drop on water that's basically still in the stove.

[Dean186]

When I have called CB, I have spoken to one of two guys, no females.  I am not saying she didn't know what she was talking about, but the puzzle is driving me crazy and I want to know the answer.  I would keep after them.  Ask if there's someone you can email with a question.  It's just doesn't seem plausible to me to have a 20 degree temp drop on water that's basically still in the stove.

I agree with Doctorb.  It would be almost impossible with water circulating to have a 20 degree difference.  Mine various between 2 and 4 degrees.

[Bioman]

Is it possible the pump or line is restricted somewhere?  You could see that kind of delta T if there was a reduction in the water flow rate.  One of the TC's could be reading wrong as well.

[upsnake]

www.gilletttax.com/Jay/owb/CB.doc

I will double check the pump direction like the CB person i talked to the other day said, i didn't get a chance last night.

I measured the 165 before the pump, right on the 6 inch brass nipple that screws into the tank. So I am not sure what could be causing a block.

I have tried two different thermometers in lots of different locations in the loop and all agree with the 165 figure.

The link above is what i plan on faxing to CB. They don't have an email that i can see.

On one hand i don't want thing to trickle back to the dealer and him get mad at me, since if ever need parts or anything i need to buy them somewhere, but at the same time i would like an answer that make sense to me. haha

[Bioman]

When I have called CB, I have spoken to one of two guys, no females.  I am not saying she didn't know what she was talking about, but the puzzle is driving me crazy and I want to know the answer.  I would keep after them.  Ask if there's someone you can email with a question.  It's just doesn't seem plausible to me to have a 20 degree temp drop on water that's basically still in the stove.

I agree with Doctorb.  It would be almost impossible with water circulating and all to have a 20 degree difference.  Mine various between 2 and 4 degrees.

Do you have any idea what the gpm flow is?

[Dean186]

Do you have any idea what the gpm flow is?

I emailed TACO (the manufacture of my pump) with model of my pump and my setup and asked them about my flow rate.  They emailed back a figure of 8 gpm.


Added:  It would be nice if someone had a measured value to report.  I would like to know some real numbers.  I am sure Central Boiler has real numbers, but they seldom report the fine details of their stoves.   

[beenthere]

.............I measured the 165 before the pump, right on the 6 inch brass nipple that screws into the tank. .......

This raises the question if you are reading water temp or "brass nipple" temp?
Just following lightly with interest in your differences. Hope you find what is up.

[upsnake]

Hey Beenthere,

I don't think that is the case. My reasoning is that, on the hx in the house it is 165 incoming, and as long as i have the furnace fan off, the out going on the hx is also 165, then i have a thermometer in the return temp that is actually measuring the water, and it is 165 give or take a degree.

Since everywhere else in my system are all the same I am pretty confident that the water is actually 165.

Or at least that is what makes sense in my head. Hahah

[Holmes]

The 185 temp is most likely a reading at the top of the boiler water . Sensing at the top temp. will allow the control to throttle back the fire before the water starts boiling. Your feed pipe is probably lower in the tank and you will have temperature stratification in these large capacity boilers.  When your fan is on in the HX you are getting a 20 degree temp difference this is a very good number.  Holmes

[doctorb]

I have an e-2300.  My water temp entering my house 300 feet away is only 5-6 degrees lower than what the controller says my water temp is in the stove.  Yet he has a 20 degree differential in the stove itself!  And he's the first person on the FF to report this differential.  Other e1400 users do not see the same phenomenon.  I moving to Missouri on this one.  Your gonna have to show me!  My indoor oil burner kicks on at a temp of 160.  If that's true for him as well, that's not a lot of wiggle room before his backup heat kicks on.  I don't buy it.  Somethings not right.

[hockeyguy]

My 2300 temps. are very similar to doctorb's. I usually have 5-7 degree difference between boiler and house after going through 140' of 1 1/4 Thermopex.

[Dean186]

I have a total of 6 thermometers installed in my system and it took a while to get them all within specification.  Out of the six, three were out of specification.

Below is a photo of my 70 plate heat exchanger with 4 thermometers installed.  At the time this photo was taken, two were waiting for a warranty exchange.  These thermometers are there for trouble shooting problems and for demonstrating how the system works.  They neither have good resolution or accuracy, but serve their purpose when within specification.  If you buy four at a time like I did, all you have to do is insert all 4 into a pan of heated water prior to installing and check their consistency.  In my case one was almost 15 degrees off and the other 4 degrees.



I verified all six thermometers (4 analog at heat exchanger, 1 digital with probe in manifold where water enters house, and one digital in Fire Star control).  I did this verification at start of heating season without a fire in the fire box.  I turned the OWF pump on and let in circulate water for an hour or so.  The conditions were as follows.

    1) Fall ground temperature 30 inches down where the water line is located was about 55 degrees.

    2) Outside temperature was in the 50's and it was a cloudy day (there was no direct sunlight on the Fire Star controller side of the furnace).

    3) Temperature of water in water jacket was 50 degrees, based on 5 of my thermometers reading the same.

     4) Indoor furnace switched off

Under these conditions one would expect all six thermometers to read the same.  Right?  The digital reading at the Fire Star controller was reading 57 degrees where the other 5 were reading 50 degrees.  An error of 7 degrees for the Fire Star digital thermometer.

With all of this said and your comments above; I believe you have a faulty digital thermometer in your Fire Star controller.  You could simple remove the temperature probe from its housing, stick in some warm water where you have an accurate kitchen thermometer inserted and compare the two.

[upsnake]

Well i sent the letter via fax to CB. I will give it a few days to see what happens.

Thanks for your help so far guys, I really appreciate it.

[upsnake]

I got a call from CB today, and they suggested opening the controller and taking the thermocouple out and then with a mug of hot water put the two thermometers in there and see what temps i get.

So i calibrated my first thermometer, then got a 185 degree mug of water and measured both. The firestar showed 205 and the reg thermometer showed 185.

I emailed the results back to CB, so I will wait for their answer.

[doctorb]

Wow!  What a surprise!  It's off by 20 degrees!  Whodathunkit?

I am glad they took your problem seriously, despite their reaction to your phone call.

[doctorb]

Sorry about my sarcasm in yesterday's post.  The problem just had to be in the controller.  You'll get it straightened out and your stove will run better.

[Dean186]

With all of this said and your comments above; I believe you have a faulty digital thermometer in your Fire Star controller.  You could simple remove the temperature probe from its housing, stick it in some warm water where you have an accurate kitchen thermometer inserted and compare the two.

I got a call from CB today, and they suggested opening the controller and taking the thermocouple out and then with a mug of hot water put the two thermometers in there and see what temps i get.

So i calibrated my first thermometer, then got a 185 degree mug of water and measured both. The firestar showed 205 and the reg thermometer showed 185.

I guess my lengthy post took away from my main point.  So, no surprise here about your findings.  It was a "Been There Done That" situation.  Central Boiler does not manufacture the thermometers, but they do choose the brand that they will be reselling/installing.  They need to reject batches of thermometers until the manufacture of the thermometers gets a better handle on quality control.  To their credit, they replaced all three of my bad ones under warranty.

With a 20 degree temperature difference, you should notice a big improvement in performance once the new thermometer is installed.  Until then, you could at least bump OWF water temperature to its maximum of 195 degrees.

[upsnake]

CB says they think it is the board the is bad, not the thermocouple.
They said to call the dealer and let them know, then they can send a new one to him.

So i called the dealer and he is calling CB. hahah It will get fixed eventually. Haha

[Flyer]

I used to run my e2300 at the factory setting of 185.  I just lowered it to 180 this winter as I'm trying to find out if the water had been getting a little too hot.

I keep a 30 percent mixture of propylene glycol in my indoor heating system in case of power outage when i'm gone but after checking it this spring the effectiveness of the glycol had reached that of regular water.   Glycol breaks down with heat over several years but one year was way too fast.  Just put in new glycol in December and so far it has been holding its effectiveness with the lower temp on the outdoor boiler.  Hopefully that solved my problem.

[upsnake]

Good News: The dealer is coming out tomorrow with a new control panel.  8)

Bad news: I have to shut the boiler down. :( The dealer said some of the thermostatic mixing valves had the wrong temperature set point in them. Instead of being 150 they were 180. so he is going to check that, but to do that we have to stop the flow of water to the valve.

My system is designed where i cal easily stop the flow after the valve, but i only have a shut off on the supply line before the valve. So i think i am going to have to top it there, and then at the stove for the return line, then have it drain our at my HX to get the return line empty. Grrrrrrrrrrr

I am one more valve away from making that a painless spot to stop the flow of water too. Oh well.

I will let you know how it goes. Hahah

[horseman 2]

  Hi guys,
  Boiler temperature are set according to what you are using to deliver heat in the house.
  Copper baseboard reacts the fastest in heating and also cools the quickest so they run hotter water in them. up to 195
  Cast iron holds the heat longer and takes a lot longer to cool so they run radiators and base board a little cooler up to 185
  In floor heat reacts the slowest so they run a mixing valve {90 to 105)they still need to run high enough temp. to heat hot water. and the rate of exchange is always directly related to boiler temp.
  I run my classic 165 ti 185.
  Have you seen the new wood loader? it fits in the door and lets you put full length and large diameter wood in your outdoor boiler.