Quarter sawing with a Lucas

[Seaman]

Can you and how do you Q saw with a Lucas? Logs will be 16 to 18 in I'm told.
Thanks
Frank

[Seaman]

Sorry,

These boards will be used for barrel staves.

[Ianab]

Basically you open the top of the log normally, then cut vertical boards, maybe 5" deep and so take off the first 1/3 of the log. You will get some rift sawn boards from the 10 and 2 O'clock position, but the middle ones will be properly q-sawn.

Then go to horizontal boards for the next 5-6". Cut a horizontal board from each side of the pith. The wood around the pith is low grade, so just saw some low grade boards, or take a cant or post out of that.

Then back to vertical boards for the last 1/3.

You will have recovered the best possible q-sawn boards, and will have some rift sawn. No matter what mill or technique you can't recover ALL perfectly sawn boards. (unless you use some exotic radial sawing method, that takes a lot of time, and wastes a lot of wood.

With the Swing mill, it's no more work to Q-saw, and you should get the same board recovery, even if it's not all q-sawn.

Ian

[Seaman]

Ianab,
Thanks, customer told me it is not exactly quarter sawn, to get staves. I will get a drawing of how he wants the logs cut and try to post it here.

[scsmith42]

Seaman, if you're going to be in the Raleigh area any time soon, I'll be happy to demonstrate how I QS with my Peterson. 

[sigidi]

Frank take a look at this....



or this



Both of these pics are from the Lucas manual. Personally I'd be inclined to do the second method and also (coz I have a bobcat) I would flip the log over after doing the middle third and put it on top of another log, otherwise the log will probably fall on you before you get through all the bottom cuts.

[Seaman]

SCSMITH, thanks but won't be any time soon. Would love to visit tho.

Sidigi, thanks for the diagram, I can show it to the customer. They are evidently very particular about grain oreintation for these staves.

These barrels will be for a particular legal moonshine made here locally, and the company also wants local wood for staves. Mabe I can come up with a test barrel, full of course, and have a cookout for forum folk!

[Gasawyer]

Please keep us posted on how they want the lumber for the staves. Got my curiosity up now.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Sigidi & others, what's your strategy for cutting out those 4 little rift-sawn boards in the upper left quadrant?  To minimize repetitive settings & avoid having to do vertical skim cuts to clean up the face of the first vertical QS board to their right?   It's pretty easy if one doesn't edge these little boards, but what to do to get them all edged?

[Okrafarmer]

TTllc, it isn't very hard to edge the boards in the log with the swing mill. You do have to reset the blade to a different height for some of them, but that is just part of swing milling. Doesn't that beat taking the boards to an edger and running them through? Of course, an edger may be just as fast, so if you have one, you could always go that route.

Seaman, it looks like one of two things will be true. If they only want true radial cuts, then either (A) You will only get about four of them per log or (B) you will have to do the "wasteful" radial cutting method Ianab referred to. And yes it is wasteful, but it insures that you get many more true radial, true quartersawn pieces per log. If you don't have an immideiate need for the rift sawn lumber and "nearly" quartersawn lumber, it may pay off to do it radially. Your log is small enough that you can turn it over with out too much trouble, so to do that option B, you will be better off than if you were trying it with one of your bigger logs. If you go with option B, make sure you have a perfectly smooth log with minimal taper and no twist or curve whatsoever. (or skim it off on all sides to make it as cylindrical as possible.) Then you will have it mounted securely in V-blocks under your mill, and rotate the log very carefully after each vertical cut and measure a precise angle to keep them all uniform. You will also not remove your cut pieces until every vertical cut has been made. Then you may have to sacrifice one  or more stave in order to get in horizontally and cut the rest of them free. Or, you may be able to use some other means to split or pry the first one out. A splitting wedge driven in from the end, for instance.

[terrifictimbersllc]

TTllc, it isn't very hard to edge the boards in the log with the swing mill. You do have to reset the blade to a different height for some of them, but that is just part of swing milling. Doesn't that beat taking the boards to an edger and running them through? Of course, an edger may be just as fast, so if you have one, you could always go that route.

Okra, I do have  a swing mill and I've cut these patterns.  This is why I ask the question. Always trying to optimize.  Wondering how others handle cutting out all those little boards to minimize the repetitive settings involved.  Not automatic to come back to exactly the same height or lateral setting of a previous cut on a swing mill, helps to have a strategy to minimize that.  Or to hear others' tricks for doing that.

[sigidi]

Sigidi & others, what's your strategy for cutting out those 4 little rift-sawn boards in the upper left quadrant?  To minimize repetitive settings & avoid having to do vertical skim cuts to clean up the face of the first vertical QS board to their right?   It's pretty easy if one doesn't edge these little boards, but what to do to get them all edged?

Mate, I try to steer away from QS logs - ya just lose too much and as shown true quartersawn boards are very few. but to answer your question, I'd still cut that upper left corner one layer, one board at a time. I'd be inclined to do a climb cut if it where something soft like silky oak and about inch and a half deep, but depends on the situation etc. basically I'd work it so the last board off this corner was going to be less than a 10" cut, so I could leave the setworks at one spot and just run the edges off on the fly.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Mate, I try to steer away from QS logs

Don't understand this comment, the diagram above has a lot of QS.

[sawmiller7753]

I mill my quarter like the bottom pic. only I do to the top part as the bottom.  It is just like Ianab stated.  I read some where if you are to build a clock the rift cut is better.  No flakes just straight grain.  Looks like a bunch of dashes.

[Ianab]

I read some where if you are to build a clock the rift cut is better

Any application where 2 adjacent sides of the wood are visible. Table legs is a good example. If you make a 2x2 table leg out of Flat or Q-sawn wood, then two faces show one grain pattern, the other 2 show the other. Problem is you can see both at the same time, so it tends to look weird. If you use rift sawn, all 4 faces look similar.

There are clock designs that use wood in a similar way, hence what you have read.

So there are certainly uses for rift sawn wood. In this situation it could be sawn into 2x2 material for furniture legs etc. If you are messing about adjusting the mill height anyway, you can cut completely different dimensions from those "wings".

Ian

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The sawing pattern illustrated is a very good way to get QS lumber.  The three (and maybe the fourth) vertical center pieces are quartersawn and will show ray fleck.  Likewise, the three or four bottom.  The three center pieces running horizontal also on the right and three on the left are also QS.  All the rest are rift.  (I am using the definition of 75 to 90 degrees of the annual ring angle being quartersawn and showing fleck.  In a species without fleck, then QS often means 45 to 90, so there is no rift as a separate item.  Make sure your customer and you both have the same definition.)

One problem with QS is that the wood near the center of the log shrinks lengthwise, causing side bend.  In this illustrated pattern above, the small square right out of the center will have most of this wood, so this pattern will also result in minimal side bend when drying.  So, make sure you use this part of the pattern too.  This core also has lots of knots and the pith which are "low grade" items.

QS takes longer to saw due to the complex sawing pattern.  It also takes about 15% longer to dry.  So, it is no wonder that some folks do not like QS and others charge quite a bit more when selling the wood.

Ianab is correct about square table legs, but many legs are not rift...the manufacturer uses what is avilable, which tends to be flatsawn and then rips and laminates the dry lumber to get a hodgepodge.  However, the rift pattern does create diamonding in drying so we do need a bit larger size so we can square the leg.  Of course, a round leg shows all the grain patterns...quarter, rift and flat (or plain)...and we seem to like that.  Maybe it is the gradual transition in a round leg?

[Happycamper]

Thanks for the quarter sawn diagram I will do some when I bring the mill home soon.
                                       Jim
Just trying the insert photo and hope it works. So bear with me.


 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Thanks for the quarter sawn diagram I will do some when I bring the mill home soon.
                                       Jim

Jim, You sure DO NOT look 78. Keep it going Buddy...looks like you're having FUN and that's what its all about! 

[Seaman]

Thanks fellows for all the feedback. I cut a 14 in red oak { I know, can't use RO for staves} today in the second pattern above. Got a surprising amount of QS.
I did do the individual cuts in the upper left corner, took a little extra time but not bad.
Stave guy said he needed 42 in long, 1&5/16 thick, and everything down to 1 in wide.
I will have to time myself cutting a couple to try and figure out what to charge. Hourly may be the key, but it will still figure out to a BF price. Won't be .25 cent a BF i promise.
I will try to do some pics, still not good at it.

[sigidi]

Mate, I try to steer away from QS logs

Don't understand this comment, the diagram above has a lot of QS.

Yeah the diagram is what Lucas pushes out in their manuals as an example layout to q/s a log, but personally I like to stay away from doing q/s and backsaw or slab everything. the waste aspect and also the time taken (as Frank is finding out) puts me off. Sure if a customer wants to, I'll do it for them, but never for myself.

Yeah Frank, I think hourly will be much better option for ya mate ;)

[KnotBB]

IMHO

Consideration when quarter sawing (with a Lucas):

Diagrams are great but they only consider the small end of the log.

All logs have some taper.  So you have to ask where your going to take the taper out

The best quarter sawn wood will be generated when the opening cut is parallel to the bark verses the heart center.  Less slope of grain that way and better figure (fleck).

Taking the taper out at the center of the log results in more waste at the center which is lower grade wood anyway but it brakes my heart to see the waste from the side cuts.

Unless you have some sort of dogging system for the log the last quarter of the log shown in either drawing isn't going to happen.  The log is going to roll.

Opening the log with a flat sawn 1" board on the side 180 degrees from the best side and then rolling the log 180 degrees will provide a lot more stable sawing base than trying to deal with a round support base and give you best side up to start cutting quarter sawn.

And better yet saw the largest log available and cut it half way down or so and leave a lip on the off side as a reference edge.  It provides a stable base for the next log.  Cut that next log down to where your next cut is horizontal and rotate 180 degrees.  Screw two stops (small pieces of wood) into the bottom log tight against the flat edge so when cutting, the log isn't pulled into the saw and one on the end so the last cut doesn't shoot of the base log before cutting too far that the weight won't hold the log still.  This allows a stable base for each subsequent log and provides full length support thus eliminating sagging problems with the traditional two support system.

You can swing one or the other end stand to take the side taper out and cut out the heart center.

The up side of this is there more recovery and no waste slab on the bottom that you can't cut.  And it allows you the option of one wide boards per log. (note: this set up can be used to resaw cants.)

:( The down side is it's a lot more work and is not time/cost effective for a few logs.